Knayaya’s were referred earlier as Thekkumbhavar (ie Southists) .

The social changes of the late nineteenth century included the advance of the Syrian Christians in economic power and social position. This advance exacerbated the divisions within the Syrian Christian community. During the late nineteenth century there was agitation for the establishment of separate parishes and dioceses for the Southists within both the Catholic and Jacobite denominations (Vattukuzhy 1973).

Accompanying this agitation was a loud claim of Southist social and cultural uniqueness. Southist writers such as E. M. Phillipose wrote polemical articles in Christian journals and attempted to establish publications strictly to air the Southist case (Uthupan 1958, 42). This (” unfortunately,” writes Leslie Brown) led to the establishment of a Southist Jacobite bishopric
in Chingavanam (1910) and a Southist Catholic bishopric in Kottayam(1911).

The stories sourrounding the Southist theories emerged during this period.

Taking his inspiration from the essays of E. M. Phillipose, Joseph Chazhikaden conceived and promulgated a bold Southist legend. Chazhikaden was a representative of the strongly Southist area of Uzhavoor in the Diwan of Travancore and after the formation of Kerala in 1956 in the Kerala State legislature. He was a noted wit whose sallies were widely reported in newspapers and are still alive in oral tradition. In 1939 he published a Malaylam book whose English title, The Syrian Colonisation of Malabar, is not an exact rendering of its main Malayalam title, Tekkumbhagasamudayam Charitram (History of the Southist Community).

The book is a rambling collection of evidences for the noble origins and tradition of the Southists.

A major section is devoted to a remarkably extended division narrative. Instead of beginning with the advent of the Syrian expedition in Malabar Chazhikaden pushes the division all the way back to Biblical times.

The original Southists, his legend proposes, were the people of the Southern Hebrew kingdom of Judea. The Assyrians invaded and dispersed the Northern Hebrew kingdom, Israel, sending its people into exile and debasing intermixture.The Southern kingdom persisted, however, thanks to the protection of Alexander the Great, and its subjects retained both their racial and cultural uniqueness. The Romans finally conquered and destroyed the Southern kingdom but they could not compromise Southist cultural solidarity. When the Southists, who had turned to Christianity but still retained their identity, fled before the Muslim invaders to Cranganore, Cheraman Perumal welcomed them but the native Christians, of Northist descent, spurned them when they refused to intermarry and dilute their blood.

Chazhikaden’s Southists are unique from the most ancient time.

Chazhikaden’s book brought forth sharp condemnation from the Northists (Kurmanakan 1941) and ambiguous support from Southists. He ” carefully ” revised the book for republication in 1961, but never consented to or made an English translation. The book is still readily obtainable today from the Knanaya Catholic diocese bookstore in Kottayam.

Contemporary Southists (Knanaya) tell Chazhikaden’s legend.

This is in response to Tom’s comment.

For quite some time I was pondering on the claim that the original knanayas came to the shores of Malabar on a missionary purpose. Is it true? The answer is NO. They came here to escape the persecution that was going on in the Middle East during the 4th century.

Missionaries will not come with 72 families to settle down here. The early Christian missionaries never considered the new converts as “impure” race and readily accepted them among themselves intermingling over a period of time because they believed “there is no Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave or freeman, but Christ is all things and in all”(Col.3:11). Also see Gal.3:28 and Rom.10:12).

So the fact as claimed by the Southists that they did not mingle with the Northist nasranis in Kerala to keep their racial “purity/nobility” shows that they lacked the missionary zeal and they did not have the pure Christian spirit.

But above all the very concept of “racial purity” itself is a big MYTH and farce. Even the Second World War is a result of misguided notion of racial purity by Adolf Hitler. In fact all human races are “pure” as both Bible and the medical science say that all human beings came (TWICE) from ONE parent, Adam and then Noah after the flood! The moment a human being mixes with any non-human species like chimpanzee or gorilla and reproduces a hybrid species we can claim that the new species is an impure race. But the Creator is wiser than all human beings put together, for He created a “species barrier” so that this will NEVER happen. As long as it never happens all human beings are “pure” as all of them came from a single parent.

There is/was NEVER a “pure” Jewish race even from the Biblical record. Even the Messiah, Jesus Himself is NOT racially a pure Jew! One of His great grand mothers was not a Jew at all. Ruth, the Moabite was a GENTILE lady who made the famous declaration of faith “Your people shall be my people and your God my God” (Ruth 1:16). Since God accepts anyone who proclaims Him in faith as part of His people He accepted Ruth also and thus she became the mother of King David’s grand father!(Ruth 4:17).

When the Israelites came out from Egypt “a MIXED MULTITUDE” also came out with them and stayed in the Canaan and got intermingled with the children of Israel over a period of time(Exodus 12:38).

Since “God is not a respecter of persons” (Acts 10:34) He has accepted these non-Israeli population also and set the SAME standard for both (Exodus 12:49, Lev 18:26). God asks the Israelites to accept and love these foreigners living among them since He is the same God who made Israel as well as other races (Lev.19:34, Deut.23:16). God accepts their prayers, sacrifices and even the Passover offered by them (Numb 15:14, Exo 12:48).

Let us go still back in time to Abraham’s time. Israelites are supposed to originate from father Abraham. But Bible clearly shows that along with Isaac other non-Abrahamic people also started the race of Israel(Gen.17:12,23).

The Bible also claim that throughout the centuries before Christ, the Pharisees were converting so many “impure” gentiles into Judaism who got mingled with the Jews over a period of time(Matth.23:15).

So from all the above it should be crystal clear that there is no “pure” race as Israel or Jew. It is all a mixture of different races that all started IN FAITH with Abraham and Moses.

The only difference that can make any impact is the centuries of education and moral character that can transform even the most backward man-eaters in Africa into cultured society. If you consider the ancient great civilizations like China, India, Arabia, Greece etc and the present Europe and America, it was always centuries of education with healthy moral principles that have transformed these people into civilized races.

While I accept the knanayas as an endogamous migrant society settled in Malabar long ago some of whose features show clearly Middle Eastern characteristics, I do not “buy” their claim of so called “purity”.

But the question remains who is a pure Jew? The only definition is found in Romans 2:29. He is a pure Jew who is circumcised of the heart and not of the flesh! Ultimately it is God’s acceptance that makes a pure race. Nothing else matters.

(P.S. I am not advocating inter racial marriages. The point is “pure/impure” races).

I have heard that many knanaya people claim that the syrian immigration only happened in their community.
Other than that, all the other christians are just brahmin converts because st thomas time they were brahimins in kerala and converted them in to christianity.

I think knanayas believe that there is no jewish blood in st thomas christians and northist and southist are belong to knanaya group. Accourding to this article, it talks about whole different things. It makes me confused.please send a replay .

philip

Dear Philip,

Claims need not be facts. Any one can make claims. I can claim that I am from the royal lineage of King Nimrod from about 2500 BC! But as long as it remains only a claim without supporting facts it is meaningless.

I advice you to read all the historical articles in this site as well as related sites. (Go to Index).

Once you come across several Biblical, historical, traditional and archaelogical accounts you will see the facts.

Mar Thoma Christians (called as “Northists” by the Knanayas) were always considered as seperate from Knanayas. Together they were known as Syrian Christians though the latter never intermarried with the former group. If both were Knanayas why they did not intermarry? Even most of the Knanaya historians mention that Mar Thoma Christians were existing here prior to Knanaya arrival.

Mar Thoma Christians were neither exclusively Jewish nor exclusively Brahmin in origin. It comprises pre-Christian Jews, Persians, Roman traders, locals etc.

Knanayas were NOT the only syrian immigrants to Kerala and Syriac language was NOT brought to India first by the Knanayas. When Seleucus Nicator of Syria (one of the generals of Alexander the Great) became the ruler of the East upto India, Syriac was already an international language of the East. Even prior to this, Syriac had a great influence on India. The great Indian script Brahmee, from which the “scripts” of all the Indian languages like Hindi, Malayalam etc originated, is HEAVILY influenced by Syriac script!

Also Apostle Thomas who brought Christianity to Indian Hebrews and locals was a Syriac speaking Jew. When Pantaneus, the famous Alexandrian scholar, came to India in 190 AD (one half centuries before Knanayas came to india) he found Syriac literature with the Indian Christians.

As for Jewish blood, please realise that Juda, from whom the Jewish tribe originated is ONLY ONE of the 12 Israel tribes. In some of the Mar Thoma Christians you will find not only Juda’s (Jewish) blood but also Reuban’s blood, Benjamin’s blood, Levi’s blood, Manasseh’s blood, Dan’s blood etc, etc.

We need to dig more and study more about the history of Syrian Christianity instead of simply making “claims”.

All the best for your study.

Lovingly

To dear Philip

Please re read the article and comments,

especially http://nasrani.net/2007/02/13/defining-a-kerala-syrian-christian/#comment-1190 and http://nasrani.net/2007/02/13/defining-a-kerala-syrian-christian/#comment-1256

Till 19th century there was no Knanaya group.
They themself call as Thekkumbhavar (ie Southists).The name Knanaya is a creation of this century.

Though there was division based on some reason ( historians differ on whats the reason, many parallel theories exists ) between Northist ( Todays St Thomas Christians barring Knanaya ) and Southist ( Todays Knanaya in Syro Malabar and Jacobite ) in earlier times it was not like as it is seen today.

Both of them claim the legacy of Knai Thomman . There were no parallel Bishops as seen today. Even there were times where all the Christians of Kerala did not had Bishops for more than 50-60 years.

The reason for the split as you see today are the divide and rule policy of Portuguese, Jesuits, Carmelite played in Kerala. A divided community wont offer much challenge to anyone.

Todays Knanaya group creation happened in 1900 beginning.

The divergence between Suuthists and Northists were aggravated by power hungry leaders under the influence of some Carmelites.

In the Jacobite the establishment of a Southist Jacobite bishopric in Chingavanam (1910) was due to the inability of leadership. Prominent historian Leslie Brown writes this as ”very unfortunate “.

In Catholic side it is the Carmelite Bishops Zaleski and Lavigne in 1900’s played the tricks to divide the community.
Nidhiry Mani Kathanar was the un disputed leader of Syrian catholics. Carmelties in 1900 tried their best to separte Malabarians from the Chaldeans forever. That was being questioned and challenged by Nidhiry and he led the community against Carmelite rule. The movement was so strong that the Carmelites had no other option than to appoint indigenous Bishops.

The Carmelite accused the leaders of the Syrian Catholics ( Nidhiry ) as schismatic because of their insistence to have native bishops and Chaldean liturgy.The carmelites changed the name of church from Syro Chaldean to Syro Malabar.

In a bid to split the community the Carmelite Bishop Lavigne suggested dividing in to two sections for administration , the Northists and the Southists.

When Carmelite had no way than to leave then Lavigne. recommended ordination of two native Bishops and one was Makkil – a southist , who was secretary to the Carmelite Bishop Marcelline as one of the Bishop. It was a move to sideline Nidhiry and keep the community divided.

So from where the Carmelite got major opposition ( Nidhiry ) , there they installed a Southist Bishop (12,000 Southists and 12 parishes, did not take into account the 90,000 Northists with 64 parishes in Changanasherry )

Though Makil was a complete failure for Syro Malabar, he was successful in creating the division and identity we see today.Finally he had to move from Changanasherry to Kottayam due to opposition.

From what was built by Makkil and from the left overs of Carmelite, in 1939 Chazikadan published a Malaylam book whose English title, The Syrian Colonisation of Malabar, is not an exact rendering of its main Malayalam title, Tekkumbhagasamudayam Charitram (History of the Southist Community).

What you hear today are just stories from this book !

NJ,

I certainly agree with you. Very well written

There can be no more STUPIDITY (forgive me for my language, but I do get mad when I hear such racial exclusivity theories) than suggesting that the Knanaya community is a racially pure one.

I for myself have seen no records from travel writers who suggest the exisatence of such a community in Malabar.

And now common sense, let me throw race at those who call themselves seperate from us racially..

Look at yourself in the mirror..you look like any one of us. Compare yourself to your ’so-called’ brethren in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. See the difference. You would be a misfit.

And dont tell me that 15 centuries of staying in India have changed your skin tones and features. That does not happen. The Cochini and Baghdadi jews are proof of this.

And the Parsis of Bombay too. They still look exactly similar to their Zoroastrian counterparts in Iran proper.

It is time to nail this Knanaya nonsense

Nidhin Olikara

Dear Olikara,

An impartial historian like you should not get mad at groups of people who do not want to belong to us. If they want to be seperate, let them be. Let us not hold them.

Let us do our home work of studying more in archaeological and historical records and find out hard facts. These facts alone can make any difference.

Ultimately it is in the blood of Syrain Christians to be split into numerous groups. Can anyone imagine that such a small community to be split into numerous small denominations failing their power?

Even when they made a political party known as Kerala Congress (for secular reasons they do not say it is a nasrani party) see how many times it has split. Such a small party has more splits than any other party!

We “gave in” to the divide and rule policy of Portuguese, Carmelites, Jesuits etc.

Sometimes I wonder if all the nasranis unite and come under one umbrella socially, culturally and politically, will Kerala remain the same? There will be positive changes.

Like Mr. Prakash Jose Kokkattu (above response) I too strongly believe that there should be valuable Syrian Christian records not only in Goa but in Portugal and Spain on one hand and Germany and Vatican on the other. Since these countries were actively dealing with Kerala more than a century there certainly must be manuscripts of correspondences both private and public.

Your recent work on “Syrian Christian Family Portrait” from Portugal is just substantiation of that.

RE: Followers of Mani in Kerala

Does anyone have any information on the Manichaean followers of Kerala? I’ve read some old 19th century books published by British Protestant authors (… of dubious credibility, perhaps! …) that talk of the remnants of Manichaeans in Kerala.

I’m not talking about the controversy regarding whether the Persian crosses (or, as they say on this site, the Nasrani “Menorah”) are Manichaean or not — this author (who I’ll reproduce when I find the bloody book again!) was talking of bona fide Manichaeans amongst the Syrian Christian community (supposedly introduced during the Syrian migrations).

Apparently one of the books banned by the “synod” at Diamper was a magic text on Persian Medicine … which perhaps has some connection with Mar Abo and Kadamattom Kathanar (the author of the book makes this connection, saying that the Kadamattom Church was rife with priests who practiced magic).

Anyways … just thought I’d ask because my parents used to tell me stories of family enemies who had a reputation for conjuring … and I thought perhaps they are referring to remnants of an ancient community of Manichaean spell-casters.

Out of curiosity, how old are reports of the Southist-Northist distinction in Kerala?

For example, did the Portuguese in their reports on our community note a distinct community of Knanaya? Or did that come much later? I’ve heard that one of Mar Thoma I’s (i.e., Thomas Parambil, the leader of the non-Roman faction) advisors—Anjalimootil Itty Cathanar—was supposed to be a Knanaya. Is that just revisionist history written post-17th century, or was their actually a separate community of Southists then?

As well, in articles on the Knanaya it is mentioned that their churches were separate from those of the mainstream Syrian Christians. How long does that practice go back? We have reports of ancient churches that claim to go back to the 4th century — are any of these Knanaya ones? I’d expect that, if the Knanaya story/history, extends back to antiquity we should see pairs of ancient churches. Is that the case in fact?

Finally, some have reported that the J2 haplogroup is present in the Christian communities of Kerala only among the non-Knanaya Syrian Christians, and that the Knanaya sampled so far contain the L group. Are there any preliminary conclusions that can be drawn from this?

I’ve read sociology papers that indicate the Southist-Northist myths tend to be variable. That is, old Northists claim that the Southists are comprised of “converted” local peoples, whereas the Northists are of foreign extraction, while old Southists claim the reverse. I don’t think the fact that Southists tend to practice Jewish/Hebrew customs can be used as proof since (1) the extent to which these customs are of direct descent from Jewish/Hebrew progenitors, or whether they come indirectly via the Hebrew origins of Christianity has not been established and (2) there are cases of imposters immitating Hebrew customs in order to give their (generally backwards) culture a boost.

… So, what does science and historical records tell us about this Northist-Southist divide? Is it fiction?

Dear John,

I have been trying to sit and talk with a Knanya guy for the last few months but have failed. There is a commen story often told by the Northists about the Knanya women/men carrying ash tied at the end of their mundu/kavini. The Northist’s claim is that this practise is proof enough that they are ‘low caste’ people as Knanaya Thomas married washerwomen and it is the practise of all washerfolks to carry ash with them tied to their clothing so as to use it as ‘washing soda’ to bleach the clothes.

Ofcouse, our forefathers cooked up this story and loved to poke the Knanaya with these. The Knanaya love to go about telling that we are impure Hebrews with leanings towards Hinduism.

I was told a few months ago that 50% of the Knanya population of India have mirated to the US. As you know they have lots of women nurses and there are many in Calgary and I am sure that there will lots in Toronto. Not many of them know about their own heritage. I once mentioned to a Knanya that we Marthomties are also Hebrew, the Knanya gave me a ‘funny look’ as if to say I was ‘crazy’. They readily admit that they are of Jewish heritage but I doubt if there are many in Canada/India who have a knowledge base as strong as we in the this NSC forum.

The queries you have raised about the Knanya churches with the NOrthists churches are good. They should be addessed.

The term Suriani/Suryani is an Assyrian word used to denote a group of Assyrian people (Christians) in Syria, Iraq/Kurdistan, Iran, etc. area many of which are the Chaldean Christians today and they are not natives of Iraq or Iran, etc… But a group of people of their own separate identity as Assyrians (as they claim). Read the Assyrian Zinda magazine article for details from the Chaldean bishop. Article named ‘The Lighthouse’…….

http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2005/3.30.05/index_wed.php

And if we as St. Thomas Christians also call ourselves ‘Surianis’ then there has to be some past community relation between the group above and our’s. Recollect it was the Assyrians among which the Israelite tribes where dispersed and said to be ‘Lost’ following the Assyrian exile.

Northist-Southist debate

Following is a research article published in 1980 at USA by Richard Michael Swiderski which probably explains abt the northist/southist origins combining legends and records and linking both groups to West-Asian Jewish (or others) Christian immigrants and their admixture with high-caste/low caste locals respectively………. or otherwise just another legend created in recent times for division.

http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/afs/pdf/a668.pdf

The following is an extract from the research article above:

“Though there are no living oral traditions to this effect, written sources record that early Brahmin settlements in Kerala grouped themselves into “northern ” and ” southern ” divisions around two rival centers (Veluthat n.d.). The Nayars, an
important Hindu caste in Kerala, also recognized a north/south dividing line (Fuller 1976).
Another important dual classification, the right -left caste division which some Tamil communities (Beck 1972; Appadurai 1974) employ was not found in Kerala usage. It is quite possible that the Christians copied the north/south division from the prestigious Brahmin community as they copied so many other Brahmin traits.”

So also I learnt from the comments of an expert on the topic saying that the Knanaya/Southist endogamous practice only came into effect not longer than 400-500 yrs. back, i.e. after the Portuguese era, due an edict released by one of their bishops. But it is to an extent true that
the Southists tend to emphasize their Jewish roots while the Northists (non-Knas) do not, may be because the Northists already are consciously aware of their Hebraic roots and do not feel the need to harp on it for propaganda.

It is like, a person knows for sure who his father and mother is, and need not go around emphasizing their names. He is simply aware of the fact. But someone who makes new inventions for identity goes about making new claims, claims which do not have proofs. This true as far as the Namboothiri-claim goes of non-Knas in search of social recognition.

Similarly some of the oldest churches in Kerala like the Morth Mariam Syrian Jacobite church at Angamali, which was established in 409 AD and re-modelled in 776 AD (with evidence) is not a Knanaya Church but a Northist church even today. This church is said to be established by Syrian Christian Immigrants (not Knai Thoman faction) in Angamali as said in the church history. Similarly many churches in Trichur dist. like those at Pudukkad, Akaparambu, Ambazhakad, etc. are known to be established in 300 – 500 AD period by Jewish Christian settlers in the areas coming from Middle-east (Ref: Bosco Puthur, 2003)

http://sor.cua.edu/ChMon/Ankamaly/AnkamalyHVMary.html

So also the first Jewish Christian immigration was around 52 AD (not yet officially recorded, I don’t know why but documented in Church and family histories) when such families came here with St. Thomas and were settled at Arthattu, Kunnamkulam and were traders, and many were later dispersed by Tipu Sultan and other Islamic persecutions.These were/are not Knanaya and my own family is a descendent of this group of Jewish Christians in Trichur but I’m not Knanaya. Similarly churches in Kunnamkulam and Arthattu are some of the oldest Syrian churches established by the above community though modelled later as described previously. Oral traditions in various families in Trichur also confirm this fact and the members
belong to various Northist denominations.

http://www.malankaraorthodoxchurch.org/historyofkkm.htm

Hi,
Two things that I have noted
1. If we consider YSearch, there is at least one more Cohen Modal match from a different family(ID D547Q).
2. YSearch has Haplogroup Q and H entries for Syrian Christians – going by the names
Two questions that I had
1. In the familytreedna project, we have 8 Haplogroup L. How did we come to the conclusion that all are Knanaya? Is this verified? If it is, it is shocking news indeed.
2. There is another familytreedna project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Project%20KANAIM/ which is specifically for Knanayites. However they have not published any results. This is odd considering that the admins details can be found in YSearch (ID – F5S5U, Haplogroup L). Does anyone know what the Y results of this project are?
Any inputs to either of my questions will be really welcome.
regards
Kezhakken

Dear Kezhakken,

I don’t find it ’shocking at all’. What is wrong if the Knanayites have Hapalog L? It disproves nothing. They have down through the centuries maintained their Jewish heritage. That itself is a strong case in point overriding that they are not J2 or Levite. Admitted that Hapalog L is African but remember that Israel had and still has a border with Egypt (which is African). I don’t think this is an issue.

Sorry George, but Kezhakken has a point that can’t be so easily dismissed.

Being born and raised in the West, can I make the claim that I’m genetically British because I’ve “maintained Anglo heritage” by speaking English, and generally following a liberal Western lifestyle. Or can I claim Greek ancestry because I subscribe to the philosophies advanced by the ancient Greeks? Or can I claim Jacobite Syrian genetic heritage because I have faithfully maintained the customs of the Jacobites? No.

The Knanaya claim to be genetically related to the Hebrews—this is a strong claim, and it needs strong proof to be accepted as anything more than a legend. Just because they follow *some* customs that may be of Jewish origin does not stand as *strong* proof. I know a Knanaya woman who loves eating pork — if I went to a *real* Jew and said this woman claimed Jewish origin, he’d probably die of laughter.

Genes tell a deeper story that heritage, language, culture and customs don’t. People can adopt any custom they want—but they can’t change their genes. Just look at the various nuts around the world that claim to be a member of the lost tribe of Israel. Some have genetic substantiation. Others? Not one iota.

And finally: Egypt is African only so far as geography is concerned. “Racially” the people are Semitic.

Kezhakken brought up an important point (one that’s been on my mind for a while too), and you can’t—in all intellectual fairness—dismiss it by overly-simplistic hand-waving. Since we’re talking science, *rigor* is necessary.

Any genetic experts out there who can shed some light? Hey Jackson? You out there?

Dear George,

Let me first of all make one thing very clear at the outset that ‘L’ Hgp. of Y-DNA is “NOT AFRICAN” either in origin or presence. L type of Y-DNA is seen in two geographically distinct areas. One is in India and Srilanka region (also among the Chitpavan Brahmins of Maharashtra) from South Asia thus forming an Indian-type L. Another presence of L is in Lebanon (rarely in Syria, Iraq) area which is also prominent. This L is the middle-eastern type of L which is very different from the Indian type of L based on marker values.

Another important thing is L haplogroup is considered to be a typical ‘PHOENICIAN’ (ancient Lebanon region) haplogroup among the middle-eastern haplogroup pool and not Israelite/Jewish/Hebraic.

And ancient Egyptians were not Semitic but Hamitic in descent. If we see any middle-eastern or semitic link/heritage today in Egypt (ancient ‘Misr’) either genetically or communally it’s purely due to the Islamic conquest by the Semitic Moors of the ADs.

Dear Jackson,
In the web I read that Hapalog L is African, hence my belief. Will try to at the web article.
and to John,
” The Knanaya claim to be genetically related to the Hebrews”.
The Jews are not a race and even the Hebrews are not a race, though by the OT, the Hebrew is a race. As mentioned earlier several non Hebrews left with the Israelites from Egypt at Exodus.

It was not uncommen for non Jews to embrace Judaism either because they liked it or because ‘their master was Jewish’. They are Jews like Cohen or Levi. Sometimes whole tribes would have embraced Judaism. The Knanayites would have been such people.

It is wrong to say that because they have L Hapalog they are not Hebrew or Jewish. This is fundamentally wrong by religion and anthropolgoy and sociology.

Dear John,

Again, simply because a women who claims she is of Jewish origin eats pork, does not mean that she is not Jewish.
My ex colleauge was a Jewish Levite but it is now about 6 years that he has seen the inside of a synagouge. Thousands of Jews would have been taken into slavery or related and made to do several unJewish things (the captors or master would have loved to do this on the Jews), yet all these unJewish doings (either willingly or unwillingly) does not make them less Jewish.

They become unJewish, when they intentionally and willingly without force excerted on them renounce their Jewishness. Thousands of Jews (eg. film director Polanski) are charged with serious wrongs, does that make t hem unJewish? Is eating pork less unJewish than murder/rape/theft ?

Yeshu and his disciples did not follow Jewish law (eg. washing of their hands before eating and they broke the laws regarding Sabbath), does this mean that they were not Jews?

Let us not limit Jewishness to outward things. Jewishness is in the heart.

1. I am not interested in “Jewishness of the heart.” By that definition, anyone can be a Jew, and this does not get us any closer to the issue of the origin of the Nasrani people.

2. The issue of the Knanaya women eating pork was raised as an example of how the adoption of “customs” is selective, and merely saying I’ve adopted such-and-such Jewish custom, does not legitimize my claim to be a member of the Jewish religion, or a descendant of the Old Testament-era Jews. I read Psalms every morning; this is a tradition I inherited from my father, who got it from his father. Am I now a Jew, because I’ve adopted this one custom? No. Then why is a Knanaya so special: they only adopt *some* customs which *may* come from the Jews. This is not so significant so as to negate the implications of the L haplogroup.

3. You say, the Knanaya may be descendants of other peoples who adopted Judaism, though not being a genetic descendant of Jacob. Maybe: I don’t know — by getting an answer on this L haplogroup issue, perhaps we can get an idea. However, your dismissal of Kezhakken’s comment is premature. Once again: just because you *like* or *dislike* an idea, does not make it true or false.

4. If by Jewish, we are talking about membership in the religion of Judaism, then pork eating, belief in Christ, are *most certainly* important issues. One who disobeys the laws of Judaism (i.e., believing in Jesus as son of God, or eating pork) is not a Jew (e.g., the Messianic Jews are *not* Jews. They are Christians. Go ask a real Rabbi at a real synagogue.)

5. If by Jewish, we are talking descent from the community of Old Testament Jews, then this Jewishness of the heart concept is further squashed—one must be Jewish (or at least Semitic) in the genes for that theory to fly. So far, the general non-Knanaya populace that’s been sampled has shown signs of Semitic origin (and perhaps bonafide descent from “Aaron”). *But* the Knanaya, don’t seem to have this — they have this L thingie. What does that suggest, scientifically? Jackson provided some important info: that L and the Phoenicians have a connection. This is highly significant in my opinion, since the Phoenicians were master sea-faring peoples. Perhaps the Knanaya came from them! This is not shocking … the Phoenicians are all over the Levant, having contributed their DNA very generously (as sea-faring people are often skilled at) … Maybe, the interesting Middle Eastern customs that the Knanaya possess comes from their distinct origins from the Phoenicians (as opposed to our probable Assyrian/Aramaic/Hebraic origins). Of course, I doubt the Phoenicians would be into segregation as the Knanaya are (the Phoenicians seemed to be more into spreading their seed far and wide, they being master “seamen” … pardon the pun).

6. You say: “It is wrong to say that because they have L Hapalog they are not Hebrew or Jewish. This is fundamentally wrong by religion and religion anthropology and sociology.”

Discounting your appeal to anthropology and sociology, yes, you’re right. The Knanaya, you, I, and every other Nasrani are *NOT* Jewish because of one simple fact: we all accept Christ. A person who accepts Christ is not a Jew. Again: go ask a real Rabbi.

But, you’re missing the central issue:
The question of who the Nasranis are, in terms of religious affiliation, is not in question. We are all, except for the atheists among us, Christians. There are *no* Jews among us, except theoretically for some converts (if they exist).

The questions of what the origins of the Nasrani community are *IS* in question: we don’t know. We have some clues (as this site so admirably provides), and we have many theories. And, with this genetic information, perhaps we have some scientific corroboration. Many of us descent from Semitic peoples; some descend from a genetic Aaron; and some have this L haplogroup … What are the implications of this?

It not about detailing about israel or jewishness, we are still checking knanayas are genitically jewish or what their dna tells their identity.I think they as not jewish as they claim but they are ofcourse middleeastern. knanayas were the ones have been louding up their voice about Jewishness while nasranis kept silent .Even nasranis forefathers have sincere attitude towards christianiy faded or almost erased their Jewishness. Now the new generation like us are looking back to see where is our possible orgin. that all we are nasrani christians and something important than Jewishness

Dear John,
You are right, we need to check and study DNAs to help determine to place a person or group into a particular slot. It is an aid but not the full thing. Along with DNA tests, there are other tests which are equally and more relavant.

For instance, if it is now proved that Aaron was not the brother of Moses(meaning not fathered by Moses’s father but by Pharao), does this make all Cohen non Jewish?. Certainly not, all Cohens will certainly be Jewish.

Likewise, there would be 10000s of Jews in Israel today who have L Hapalog. There is no such thing like a Jewish DNA. If an ethnic or subethnic group believed herself to be Jewish and if the people around them accepted them to be of Jewish heritage, then they are 100% Jewish. Ofcourse, one should use DNAs as a tool to study more and get more information.

If there are no Jews in Israel or Lebanon or Iran or anywhere with L Hapalog, I would give this matter some thought. But as it is, I am sure that there are Jews with L Hapalog.
We all know that the Knananites have stuck to a much stronger Jewish heritage than we ‘Northists’ did. They may have ‘teased’ us for being ‘recent Jewish converts’ or ‘pagans converted to Judaism’ etc.. but the fact remains that they have been more loyal to Jewish heritagae than we ‘Northists’ have been.

Let us not exceed the limit by falsely accusing our Knananites Nasrani brothers for not having a Jewish heritage while they do, because this will invite the wrath of God upon us. Careful where we tred.

They accused us earlier for being ‘low-born’, that does not mean that we should accuse them now based upon some DNA tests.

Dear Philip,

Reading between the lines of your comment, I get the feeling that because our forefathers sincerely followed Christianity, our Jewish heritage faded’. You can not be more wrong. I will say the opposite. Because we Nasranis did not sincerely follow our Jewish heritage our ‘Christianity faded’.

You have overlooked the fact that our forefathers were the ‘founding fathers’ of Christianity and it is the Nasranis responsibility to look after the gentile christians. The story of Yeshua must be told through the eyes of a Jew/Nasrani. Please remove the mindset from your (our) mind that we are inferior to the west. I think the ‘west’ has penerated more deep into you than you realize.

For you and me, there is no difference between Judaism and Christianity. It is not just my view, but also those of several or thousands of Jewish Christians.

Dear All,

I am not here for any propaganda or insults against any group or people but to unravel the results of the genetic results. And it is not I but the results that are speaking whatever. My intention is clear and thats unravelling the results based on the tests conducted.

Hi everyone,

Haplogroup L is found in South India/Sri Lanka, Pakistan and in Middle East. But each three are distinctly different sub-groups of Haplogroup L.

When I searched for genetic matches in YSearch, the Knanaya results showed other Indians as closest matches. However there was no perfect match. But, looking at the pattern, I assume that the Knanaya results in fact belong to the South Asian variety of Haplogroup L. So, the claim propagated by the Knanaya that they are descendants of immigrants from the Middle East, does not hold water anymore.

Moreover, the single Knanaya mtDNA result is M*. It doesn’t make much sense to see that both Y and mtDNA results are typical South Asian for a community which claims to be genetically isolated from the rest of the Syrian Christians.

There is reasonable genetic evidence – provided that the data available in the websites are in fact correct – to challenge the Knanaite claim. And in the age of the the Genographic Project, I hope the truth comes out.

One question from my end remains: How many of the Haplogroup L results in the Nasrani familytreedna project are Knanaya?

regards
Kezhakken

Dear Kizhakken

I have noted ur questions from ur two previous posts and will provide u with related info. I have asked Mr. Jacob (project Admin) for details on ur doubt and will provide once I get the answers.

Dear George,

In my experience, the harsher the criticism leveled against a theory, the better the theory subsequently becomes. Earlier, I was harsh in my criticism of the theory that the Nasranis are Jewish (as opposed to general Middle Eastern—read Assyrian—immigrants). This was not because I was against Jewish heritage (the opposite), but because I wanted to see better answers than the overly simplistic “we follow the Sabbath so we were Jews” argument.

Same with the Knanaya. I have no personal feelings either way (e.g., I’m not affected by their taunts that we were low-born: everything I’ve read seems to indicate the opposite—the Northists had a longer history of calling the Southists low born, than the reverse). However, I find the claims of the Knanaya to be fantastic, and I want to see the truth. The Knanaya legends are very recent (at least the documentary evidence is); there could have been any number of sources for it.

I think you have a slight problem separating (a) what you want to believe, from (b) what is factually true, and hence you take such exception to any negative feedback applied to (a).

Finally: “For you and me, there is no difference between Judaism and Christianity. It is not just my view, but also those of several or thousands of Jewish Christians.” Then this is a minority view. Mainstream Christianity and mainstream Judaism are separate religions. There may be cults that spring up claiming to merge the two, but that is, again, their own minority and ill-informed opinion. Sort of like how some Protestants claim to be Orthodox. When “A” and “B” have defined separate meanings, it is no simple matter to claim “A=B”.

The first century “Jewish Christians” were so called because they were former adherents of Judaism who accepted Christ. They were no longer accepted as Jews, although they practiced Jewish customs while accepting Christ. Don’t forget, the bona fide Jews (the ones who had Christ crucified) were at odds with these apostates. “Jewish” in that sense probably meant “culturally Jewish”.

Dear Jackson,

I meant that down through the past 1700 years the Northists and the Southists believed that the Southists were of ‘Jewish Heritage’ and hence even if any DNA says that they are of Japaneese origin, then higher consideration should be given to matters of ‘ones belief’ than on DNA results.

I faced a similar situation when a few months ago a distant relative on my paternal side who should have had similar DNA to mine showed something different. I am still in confusion as to what happened. The day I got my DNA results, a freind advised me that ‘I have opened a can full of worms’. How true that statement is.

I am fully aware that you are not doing anything for propoganda. You want to know the truth.

Thanks and Regards,
Ashok

Dear John,

For me my spiritual beliefs must tie up with my physical beliefs. This is very difficult. A scientist can easlly get annoyed with me.

To make matters more compicated, I don’t believe every word written in the Bible is divenely true. I will only say that the words are divenly inspired. This makes living for me very difficult.

All said, I find myself a very happy man.

Dear George,

You had mentioned that “I only meant that down through the past 1700 years the Northists and the Southists believed that the Southists were of ‘Jewish Heritage’ and hence even if any DNA says that they are of Japaneese origin, then higher consideration should be given to matters of ‘ones belief’ than on DNA results.”.

The Southist claim is not based on matters of belief. On the contrary their claim is strictly related to paternal ancestry. And they claim that they have kept the genetic pool undiluted through strict endogamy. Please refer to the website http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Project%20KANAIM/, which says,

“We are an endogamous community that had migrated from Urha (Edessa) in CE 345 and settled in the ancient port city of Muziris (Kodungallur) in Kerala, South India. The settlers constituted 72 families led by Knai Thoma of Cana and Uraha Mar Ouseph. This ethnic community has successfully maintained its unique identity over the last 1660 years by being very orthodox adherants of Endogamy. ”

regards
Kezhakken

Dear Kezakken,

They have been pretty strict, but I don’t they have been very strict. I suspect that their maternal DNAs will show Indian blood. By appearance, is at times very difficult to differentiate between a Northists and Southists.
I had read the articel you had pointed out. Thanks anyway!

Dear George:

Regarding your statement: “I only meant that down through the past 1700 years the Northists and the Southists believed that the Southists were of ‘Jewish Heritage’ and hence even if any DNA says that they are of Japaneese origin, then higher consideration should be given to matters of ‘ones belief’ than on DNA results.”

Sorry but *NO*.

1. There is no evidence of the first part of your statement. What records do we have that states that Northists and Southists believed that the Southists were of Jewish extraction? The Knanaya story has evolved over the past 300 years. First they were Syrians, now they are Jews. Or sometimes it’s vice versa.
At any rate, the story is only 300 years old. What evidence do we have that the Knanaya existed 1700 years ago? None that I’ve seen. In fact some Catholic and Jacobite writes speak about a ficticious story that was created 300 years ago to explain the Knanaya—and that the story has regrettably led to the creation of separate dioceses.

2. Beliefs do not trump scientific evidence. Stories and creation myths should be considered *until* better evidence arrives. If the DNA says Japanese, then they are Japanese regardless of what their creation myths say.

By the way, your reliance on pure creation myths leads to a dilemma. Why? Because:
A. Some creation myths state that the Northists were the descendants of the Semites and the Knanaya are the descendants of the local Indian peoples.

B. Others state that the Northists were the descendants of the locals and the Knanaya the descendants of the Semites.

Well: if you put so much faith in myths, which one do you believe? How do you make the choice? To believe in B makes the Northists myth-writers look like liars. To believe A makes the Southist writers look like liars.

Forget the myths. They only have their origin in the last 3 or 4 centuries! Look at the genetic evidence (so far). Although not conclusive, it seems that story A has more meat to it.

And many things can explain the loss of Jewish customs among the Northists. Higher wealth and status might have contributed to it, as would have more extensive migrations across Kerala. To say that the Southists maintained the traditions and so are Semitic/Jewish is overly simplistic. And contradicts the evidence so far.

Belief is fine … until science comes along and blows it away.

Dear All,

Whatever be the recent developments it is NOT for mud-slinging but for clearing myths and false concepts been propagated. This in now way divides but further unites if we are ready to remain so.

Mr. George, the L haplogroup you read as been African, is for the mtDNA and not Y-DNA (paternal). Yes “L type of ‘mtDNA’ is African” again I repeat. And the L hgp. we are discussing seen in Knas, is for Y-DNA which I stated as held by scientists and historians to be of Phoenician origin “typically”. mtDNA hgps. are different from Y-DNA hgps. (Eg: A type Y-DNA has another thing to say from A type mtDNA).

Then, another doubt I have is where is this information from, that there are ‘10000s of Jews’ having L haplogroup ? I have checked almost the entire genetic database of Jews from almost all parts of the world as on ftDNA and ysearch but I still have ‘not found’ a single Jew or a person claiming Jewish ancestry to belong to L type of Y-DNA. This is very important. And please do bring to our notice if you find this atleast one or more than one Jewish sample as L. The Jewish genetic database is below.

http://www.jewishgen.org/DNA/

Similarly the Phoenician link of L hpg. may be supported as follows. One of Mr. Jacob’s Knanaya friend has been tested as L and this Kna person’s L based on marker valeues matches an L person from Lebanon. So there is something to think about it. And as per Lebanese genetic information more than 20% of them belong to L haplogroup which is significant. Similarly the Knanaya L’s are middle-eastern type L. So that surely says of their middle-eastern link but fails to say their Jewish descent as per genetics.

Similarly it could be that many of the early Phoenocians converted to Judaism as ancient Judaism surely accepted surrounding nations into their fold by conversions. So the Jewish legacy that the Knanayas “might” carry may be derived in the above manner. Similarly there is a ftDNA project started exclusively and separately for Knanayas recently by some Sundeep Abraham (project Admin). He also has been tested a L hgp. and in his ‘place of origin’ section in the database info sheet he has mentioned his place of Origin as “Cana, Lebanon”. Note that. So I guess when they themselves are becoming sure of their roots then we too have to accept the same or someone does not put something like this as been from “Lebanon” without second thoughts. So the ‘Phoenician/Lebanese genetic link’ is becoming clearer for the Knanayas with ‘Jewishness as part of their cultural heritage’.

This is totally different from been Israelite/Jew genetically as the Northists are showing in their genes (paternally, as of now) which is an altogether different case. And that they (Northists) have least Jewishness left today ‘in culture’ is also another thing but doesn’t disprove their “genetically Israelite Origins” largely.

I will get back to you for more on the Knanaya test results since I have asked Mr. Jacob for more info on the same as all of them tested so far are L.

Dear Jackson,

If there are no Jews with L Hapalog, then as I said the matter whether the Knananyites deserves serious atttention.
But remember, huge chunks of Jews have been killed and huge chunks of Jews have been forcibly converted to other religions. So, this area deserves extra care.

The Northits have used the Southists as ‘Standard Yard Stick’ for their own research into their heritage. It is indeed strange that Phoenicians should have Jewish traditions etc.. Lebanon and Israel are tiny nations and very close to each other. AS you have agreed, the chances of Lebaneese converting to Judaism is very high. And if these Jews are not any more here in the database, then the chances are high that they have been wiped out.

Maybe, our Southists brothers fled such ‘killing’ and came to Malabar. We have very little information. In such a situation I am only advocating ‘let us acknowledge them as we did for the last 1700 years, viz as Jewish Christians’.

Dear John,

I have not so far heard the story that the southists are only 300 years old. I am hearing this for the first time. My Knanaya freinds have told me that they are Jewish and that they came in around ‘300AD’. Since there are no Knanayites in the Marthoma Church (they are everywhere, even in Pentecostals – I read that about 300 are in Hinduism), you being an Orthodox have a better advantage in knowing more about them.

You have now put me on a new trail and forced me into thinking from a different angle. Thanks! We are all small insignificant people trying to know ‘history’.

Dear George,

About the Knanaya ’strict endogamy’ term it is again proving ‘mythical’ because their maternal DNA is also M* as the other Northists and Indians. As mythical as our Namboothiri origin claims for now.

Dear All,

There is yet another piece of information I would like to add to the genetics part as for now for knowledge and relevant co-relation if any.

As stated, all Knanayas tested so far belong to L hgp. and some of these have middle-eastern matches from Lebanon/Syria. Similarly the L hgp. in middle-east is seen specifically and typically among the ‘Druze’ ethnic community scattered in Lebanon, Israel and Syria. They are Muslims today but an ancient ethnic community and also claim descent from the Biblical Jethro (Moses’s father-in-law) thus are Hebrews but not Israelites/Jews. More than 35% of Druze men are L hgp. which is rare in other ethnic middle-easterners. This L hgp of the Druze is believed to have originated from South Asia/Persia and froms the middle-east type of L today.

Hi Jackson,

Regarding – “As stated, all Knanayas tested so far belong to L hgp. and some of these have middle-eastern matches from Lebanon/Syria.”

Well, I am not sure which result matched results from Lebanon/Syria. This needs to be ratified.
But I do know this. Kindly do see for yourself. (The link takes time to load).

YSearch.org Link

This one – F5S5U – specifically is not Middle Eastern L but South Indian L. Please correct me if I am wrong.

We have at least one Knanaite Y result which is not Middle Eastern, but South Indian. We have at least one Kananaite mtDNA results which is Indian. The claim on paternal ancestry and endogamy from the Knanaite side is – at least mathematically – disproved. But this is not Mathematics. We need more samples. More samples are hidden here – http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Project%20KANAIM/. The project has 13 members but nothing has been revealed so far. Why the secrecy?

I earnestly request the KANAIM project admin to make the results public and end the debate.

regards,
Kezhakken

Dear George,

Sorry for my confusing writing: I didn’t mean to say that the Southist community is only 300 years old. I meant that the *myths* themselves are around 3 or 4 centuries old. They were all put into writing in the last 3 or 4 centuries (by various Catholic and Jacobite/Orthodox writers with possibly vested interests). And they have undergone significant revisions over the centuries.

All I am try to say is that one can not put too much stake into one’s beliefs. After all, we (the Northists) had this Namboothiri myth, which probably started popping up within the last few centuries due to migration, wealth, and our growing political power. So also with the Knanaya: as I understand it, they were forced into various migrations due to Islamic and other attacks on them. Histories can get distorted into grandiose myths under these circumstances, as a community attempts to explain itself in new (possibly more favorable or relevant) terms.

Anyways, Jackson’s information is very interesting and presents a possibly more accurate picture of that community grounded in scientific evidence. It may be like one English or Portuguese writer once said about the Northists and the Southists (in the 18/19th century):
(paraphrasing) “Could it not be that the two communities were simply descendants of two *different* migrations from the Middle East?” So perhaps the Northists and the Southists had different “fathers” who came over from the Middle East (at different times), mixed with the locals, and created two patriarchal communities. They would probably not mix because they were, after all, different communities (“castes”). Remember, yes, the Southists claim endogamy because they don’t marry Northists—but at the same time, the Northists are also endogamous as well: we don’t marry Southists (and non-Northists). And not just because the Southists don’t marry us: the Northists used to claim that the Southists come from low-born local stock, while we were the descendants of pure-born stock. The legend runs both ways: the fact that the Northists lost the legends probably points to two things—(a) we are a more populous community and so don’t need to worry about endogamy (there’s always someone out there for us to marry) and (b) we are generally more affluent and so more prone to losing more “backwards” and provincial customs. Or, perhaps our ancestors just realized that inbreeding leads to problems later on.

Dear Jackson,

I will fully agree with the view that the K’nites maternal side is showing Indian. I knew it otherwise since a long time. Some of their women are indeed Semitic looking, but many are similar to our women.
Strange, I don’t see any difference in the men. Their men and our men look the same. They certainly do not have the very dark skinned ones as we have.

Dear John,
You mentione earlier that there were and are to and fro allegation between the ‘Northists and the Southists’ that the other is ‘low born’.

The Northists did say, but more out of fun than otherwise. But the southists were serious. They backed up what they said by refusing to give us women from their fold. The Northists have always been prepared to give them wives, but never the Southists. They really did consider us ‘low born’.
The Indian blood in them may be from marrying Northists women.

It is unsual that though we have been so close to each other, there yet not a single L Hapalog in the Northists camp.

But I am still not convinced that they are not of Jewish heritage. About a year ago, Jacob did tell me that a Lebaneese man has a good match with one of the Knaites.

Dear John,

There is yet another observation I have made between the Northists and the Southists. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The Northists are more educated than the Southists but the Southists are more wealthier (in average only) than the Northists. The Southists are rarely found in poorer areas like Kollam, Alleppy or Kayamkulam urban areas but more around wealthier places like Ranni, Kottayam, Chingavanam etc..
If only we can get some statistics!

i am from and many neighbours sorrounded my house almost knanites and i have some families in very close contact. But i surprised kna women dna shows indian honestly i saw kna women with non indian features i surprised. I found some really a syrian women or middleastern women. Now i felt their forefathers cut thier foreign looks by marrying dravidan or local women at those early times it just my opnion

Hi Phillip,

Regarding – “Now i felt their forefathers cut thier foreign looks by marrying dravidan or local women at those early times it just my opnion”

How will your explain the genetic evidence for Dravidian paternal ancestry in Knanaya? From the results of the KANAIM familytreedna project admin, the paternal ancestry is Dravidian. I might be harping on the same tune again, but the hunch is a very valid one. The KANAIM project is hiding results.

Speaking about looks, there are many very fair Thiyyas, Nairs, Namboothiris etc who can pass of as people from Near East. Looks in Kerala does not mean much. You will find all sorts of faces in all communities.Physical Anthropology has long been proven as extremely unreliable.

Phillip, please request sundeepabraham@yahoo.com to reveal the results. This should clear off the confusion and reveal the truth.

regards
Kezhakken

Hi,
I compared the markers for ID N13642 listed in the Syrian Christian familytreedna project, whom I am assuming is a Knanaya from the family name. This one also looks Dravidian.

Also, from the family names, there looks to be Northist haplogroup Ls as well.
regards
Kezhakken

Dear George,

1. Regarding wealth and education.
Since the Northist population is significantly higher than that of the Southist, it’s to be expected that the Northists would have dispersed to a significantly higher degree than the Southist, including to less affluent areas (those areas probably were very affluent back a few centuries ago when farming was in vogue—nowadays due to the butchered political climate in Kerala, farming in those areas have become less lucrative, in my understanding, leading to their relative poverty).

2. Regarding inter-marriage and “superiority”
You make it seem like the Northists are dying to marry the Southists, but they continually get rejected. I doubt this is the case. Do you have any evidence of this claim that the Northists have always been ready to give their women over in marriage to the Southists? At any rate, we can’t really judge these things now because it’s been at least a century since the real conflict between the Northists and the Southist occurred. All I know is that from the articles and books I’ve read, there was a mutual lack of desire for intermarriage.

Moreover, it seems that historically the Northists were a more powerful community than the Southists; perhaps there might have been some resentment on the part of the latter. For example, in places where the Southists had their own parish, it was often smaller than the neighboring Northist parish. There are exceptions, but in those exceptional areas, there are often several Northist parishes to be found. In areas where the Southists had no parish, they often only got second dibs on the use of the church. So, under these circumstances, I doubt it can be said that the Northists were begging to marry into the Southist community! Who would want to go down on the social ladder. (Not that I support such elitism; however, it is a fact, that in ancient cultures people rarely married “downwards”.)

Another indicator of the relative relationship between the Northists and the Southists can be found in the Pakalomattom family: they are not Knanaya, right? Yet they were the administrators of the entire Nasrani Church for quite a while — why would that be? Was there a separate administrator for the Knanaya? I doubt it: Anajalimootil Kathanar (the helper of Mar Thoma I) was a Knanaya—why would he support a cleric that was not of his community?

The Assyrians / Syrians were of dubious enlightenment … although their did consecrate bishops from various communities (there was a Chinese Partriach of the Nestorian Church, after all), they didn’t seem to consecrate any of our people until after the 16th century. I find it telling that of all groups in Kerala they would allow a Northist family (Pakallomattom) and not a “pure-blooded” or “high-born” Knanaya family to be in possession of the Arch-deaconate.

3. Regarding looks
I agree with Kezhakken in that relying on looks is a fools game. It depends on sampling! Have we all seen every single Northist and Southist? Not me. All I know is, every Southist I’ve seen in the various Orthodox/Jacobite and Syro-Malabar Churches I’ve gone to, have been, as a rule darker, shorter, and flatter-nosed, than the Northists (with a single exception). In fact, this was what got me interested in the Knanaya story myself–I just couldn’t believe their claim to be of foreign extraction based on looks!

But at the end of the day, looks don’t tell a better story than genes. You can meet short, dark, and flat nosed Arabs and Jews if you look for ‘em. And you can find Caucasoid-looking sub-Saharan Africans as well. Like Kezhakken says: “Physical Anthropology has long been proven as extremely unreliable.”

4. Jewish Customs
Finally, regarding Jewish customs. From what I’ve seen on this site, the Northists also practiced Jewish customs. According to some comments, the practice of Jewish customs is not a matter of community (Northist v. Southist) but a matter of geographic location. For example, one person reported that in the northern parts of our realms, Pesaha, etc, are practiced rigorously by both Northist and Southist. Whereas in the southern parts, even the southists don’t practice it. If this is the case, what Jewish customs do the Southists really have that are *exclusive* to them?

5. Mar Thomite/Pentecostal Southists
That is fascinating! I never knew there were Knanaya in the Mar Thomite community! Do they only breed with themselves as well? The reason I ask is when I look at the various Knanaya community groups, they always indicate that the Knanaya belong to one of two groups: Syro-Malabar Catholic and Syrian Orthodox (Jacobite). I’ve never seen a single mention of non-Catholic/Orthodox Knanaya. Moreover, I believe the Knanaya are very particular about their denomination. When Mar Ivanios of the Orthodox Church broke away and created the Syro-Malankara Church, the Knanaya left en-masse and joined the Syro-Malabar. But then again, in Kerala, anything is possible!

There was a marriage happened that my moms mother’s sister married by a knanaya man. and it just happened at that time my aunt said. I asked my relatives who are knas and why don’t we have realation with them . Them my aunt literally told me thekkubagar they are different we don’t make marriage with them. even if we did god going to ask for that for generations that much wrong in it. then i said ok.

It’s not about the fairness i was looking but i felt some thing about the kananaya features a syrian one or something. But i am possitive that ofcourse there is dravidan influence in that community. i just said they probably took different wives beause everybody will protect their patrneal side and keeping their roots coustoms and traditons.I also think that even if knas got mixed earlier as long as people stay in the same community and continue to marriy in that commuity makes it kept going not pure as when check their gentics induvidually may be. i felt that they are immigrant community from sryia egypt lebanon or somthing like that but i don’t think they are from solid jewish community. When it comes to jewish i have known they are even in africa and they got mixed and still kept their strong culture also local customs ex in ethiopica europe, manipur, iraq, etc etc and never heard they kept endogamy or creating boderes. still just my opinion

Dear All

There are many dark skinned male and female thekkumbagors. I think most of the Southist are concentrated in Ranni, Chingavanam, Kaduthuruthy and Uzhavoor. I have seen many dark skinned in all these places.

I agree with all the points mentioned by John Mathew.

The reason for non marriages between Northist and Southist are not because Northist are not getting Southist girls to marry like Mathew said. How many Northist in these areas were ready to marry Southist girls ? Actaully, their is a kind of rivalry still existing in all these locations between Southist and Northist.

Few questions,

1. How many influential Southist families are there in all these places where both live toghther ?

What I have seen is Northist position themselves as elite and were prominent in all these locations in terms of “Parmbaraym”. Even in Ranni, Chingavanam,Kaduthuruthy and Uzhavoor, the Southist “rich” families are “dollar” families. Traditionally there are very less Southist rich or wealthy families.

The credit of Nasrani taking over “ Hospital” career actually goes to Southist and Mar Thomites. More than 90 % of the Southist I know are in hospital careers like nursing. They started it very early in 1960’s and moved to US and are very wealthier. The Northist barring Mar Thomites were late entrants.

These days Southist try to add lot of clout. I have never seen them discussing their history or orgin outside their community. They generally keep silent on discussing their stories but does makes many prejudiced stories..

If I am not mistaken they generally throws out people who ask questions. I think they banned and kicked out NSC Admin from one of their orkut communities ( Admin, please clarify ?)

2. What is the oldest Southist church in Kerala ?
3. What proff is their to say that their were different priests for Southist community before the arrival of Portuguese ?
4. Why is that all Southist Churches ( as far as I know all has a history after the arrival of westerners) are few yards away from Northist church and small in size comparing to Northist church like security gate infront of a house ?

Please don’t misunderstand me. I not blindly against anyone. I heard that in US few months back some Southist priests belonging to Syro Malabar refused to give pastoral care to Northist people. I am interested in knowing what are the real intentions behind such serious activates ? What are the basis and evidences and prof on Southist history and claims?

My understanding from this discussion point to something fishy in the DNA results of Thekkumbagor. Beacuse of some reason they are hiding the result.

From the Ysearch link what appears to me is the Southist samples indicate clear Indian origin.

5. Why is that the results not published where most of the DNA projects tries to keep there work and activities transparent .Why are the Southist project hiding the results ?

Mr. Jackson, Can you please contact the Southist DNA administrator and try to bring some clarity on these issues ?

6. On looks there are many very fair eastern looking Nasranis, there are also many fair Nair girls. Ezhava girls are also not bad. I have seen many beautiful fair Ezhava girls. There are also drak and not very fair every where. I am doubtful how we can use these kind of comparison in nonsubjective discussions.

Dear John,
You are smart. After I wrote that the Southists are not there in poorer areas like Kayamkulam, Kollam, Alleppey etc. it struck me that these places were once the heart of culture and wealth of Travancore until about the 1930s ‘.

It was after this peirod, that all this changed. The interiors like Ranni, Kottayam, Malappally grew in wealth because of rubber.
Smart! particularly since you were not born or raised in Kerala/India.

Dear John,

I meant to write that there are no Knanites amongst the Marthomites, though there are several amongst the Pentecostals.
It is funny, you see Knanties as more Dravidian looking and I see Knanites as more Semetic looking. But I can be wrong. This whole excercise, is making me to relook into many things.

Dear All,

The following info is after verification with Mr.Jacob and also from ftDNA database.

There are 8 samples tested as L haplogroup in the Nasrani database. Of these 3 samples are of Knas and other 5 are Northists. Almost all the Northist L’s are placed under L1 sub-type (This is still under confirmation tests).

All the Knas are tested as belonging L3 group. But from ftDNA’s database a Kna Mr. Makil is placed in L1 as against the other Knas who are all under L3. Mr. Jacob also stated there are a few more Knas who have been tested to be L3 but have refused to publicly join/display their results. So that adds to the Kna database. Similarly we have the Kna project head also tested as L. Their mtDNA is M* as stated earlier.

Now on the sub-clades of L (L1,L2,L3):

L1 (M27, M76) Typical of Dravidian castes of India and Sri Lanka, with a moderate distribution among Indo-Iranian populations of South Asia

L2 (M317) Found at low frequency in Central Asia, Southwest Asia, and Southern Europe

L3 (M357) Found frequently among Burusho, Kalash and Pashtun communities, with a moderate distribution among the general Pakistani population

Burushos are an ethnic community/tribe in extreme North Pakistan. Pashtuns/Patthaans are another ethnic community found scattered in Iran, Afghanisthan and Pakistan and some Pashtun tribes have North Israelite tribes origin legends but genetically disproved and found to be an Iranian stock people with some admixtures. You may search on Google for more details. And L3 is predominant in the above people as in the Nasrani Knanayas who also are L3.

The Northists L1 may well be indicating local Dravidian or Aryan origins for these families (considering other factors also, to find which is true). But that Knas are almost all L3 has been confirmed (whether displayed or not). And since some other sample results of Knas are not publicly displayed though been tested indeed raises eye-brows. But the picture is clearer for a wise person, that they far from been Jewish/Israelites “genetically”.

Dear All,

Now keep those genetic info and results of Knas as L3 (Iran, Pakistan related) on one hand and keep our Thomas history and tradition on other and let’s see if any picture is emerging.

Tradition and history says that St.Thomas arrived in Malabar in 52 AD. Before this, his missionary activity is known to be in Persia (Iran) extending to the Indo-Parthian kingdom till ancient Takshila (Pakistian of today). The Pope also attests than Thomas did evangelize in ancient Pakistan area. The Indo-Parthian king Gondophores’s kingdom is also of this exact region and coins proving this have also been found from North Pakistan to prove this tradition true. This King is also said to been converted with his brother Gad in Thomas tradition.Now combine this with the L3 genetic results of Knas as L3 is common in Pakistani populations. Similarly I also read a pakistani government article which states that in Pakistan there is a group of Christians who claim to be Thomasine christians and today are found in Sindh province of Pakistan.

I don’t know whether I am thinking in the right direction combining tradition and genetic info but seems to give some unavoidable hints which atleast I cannot easily ignore. We can have a discussion on this.

Dear George,

Let me also share another info here I got from my family elders. Once I asked them who are these Knanayas. And they were looking at my face to expect an answer from me. They simply haven’t even heard of such a people or group called ‘Knanaya’. Surprising for me.Then I later told them Knas are Jewish in descent as per claims and the response I got to this was a laugh. They simply laughed it off saying it was a ‘new info’ for them but didn’t say anything else, neither did I dig further. May be because we are Thrissurians that they haven’t even heard of them becoz Knas are concentrated in Kottayam dist. region. But that response I saw cannot be dismissed easily as Philip said.

So I guess these Knanaya exclusivity stories are recent atleast for us North Keralite Nasranis till all this Internet and book material was made for circulation of the same as is the Namboothiri story recent.

As far as i am a ranny guy . i have been exposed to lot of knanites. I truely know that some do have non indian features i saw a knanaya man white as hell. Racially i m thinkin i know they are some kind of group came from somewhere. One nair guy told me they migrated from goa. One knanaya guy hiself told me they were 72 portughese family under knana thommen. Again as far as i knw them they having lot of tradiions like high cast hindu believe me. They are emphasising more on who they are raically instead rooted in bible and biblical matters i think

Hi,
First of all Jackson, thanks for your effort.

Let us analyze the data that we have at hand. We have three Kna results in Nasrani project. Two are L3 one is L1(Makil). Then we have the KANAIM admin, who is very clearly L1. The rest have not been made public. Let us not consider those until those are made public as till then it is just hearsay. We have had enough of that.

Which would mean that 50% of results revealed for Knanaya is South Indian. The presence of a couple of L1s is enough to prove that the claim of racial *purity* is incorrect.

I think the KANAIM project will continue to hide their results, but from what we have seen so far,

1. Knanaite mtDNA is M*. Maternal ancestry of Knanaites is purely Indian, typically South Indian.
2. There is a considerable amount(50% of what is revealed so far) of Y L1 results in Knanaya. A significant part of their paternal ancestry is also South Indian
3. Knanaites purportedly have L3 results. L3 is found in *low* frequency from Pakistan to Middle East among the Arab tribal population. Further analysis and study should reveal what this means.
4. Knanaites have no Jewish ancestry whatsoever from paternal or maternal side.

Northists have Indo-Aryan(R2, H, and Indian R1*), South Indian(L1, J2) and Middle Eastern (very possibly Jewish – J2 Cohen Modal, Q?, Levite R1*) ancestry.

Thanks,
Kezhakken

Dear Kezakken,

You mention that there is J2 of South Indian origin in the Northists camp. Can you please give more details?

Thanks.

Hi George,
There are Syrian Christian Y results in YSearch which are not Cohen Modal. I am assuming that this is Indian and Non-Indo European. However it is found abundantly in North as well but J2 is not something that is tied with Indo-European speakers anywhere. Hence assuming that it should be Dravidian. There are many Hindu J2 in India, please search for Haplogroup J2 in Asia in YSearch.

1. It is my *assumption* that non Cohen Modal J2 found in Northists is Indian. J2 is pan-Indian.
2. Please read Dravidian as Non-Indo European
regards
Kezhakken

Dear Kezhakken,

No geneticist will ever hold J2 is “Indian in origin”. Yes there are few Indians (5-9% max.) who are J2 and these are mainly the Muslims (who have semitic blood admixture) and some Brahmins. But remember that J2 for all reasons is called the most valid and clearest Semitic marker, flowed out from Middle-east elsewhere. And J2 is called a “Jericho culture marker” to be specific. Refer Genographic project marker atlas and National Geographic website. And if few Brahmins also have J2 then it is purely due the above contribution from early semites in Iran who Aryanized and thus arrived in the Indian pool. And I will hold that J2 is ‘not South Indian in origin’ though rarely found in Iyers too but marker values are different from middle-eastern J2 type. Since u have stated some of our J2 is south Indian in origin I would like to see details of the same because I have not yet read a single genetics expert say so.

And do not conclude that L1 is exclusively Dravidian. The Chitpavan Brahmins of Maharashtra have few L1 in them, so that L1 does not speak of South Indian origin exclusively.

R2 is also not exclusively Indo-Aryan because there are plenty of Jews who also are R2. So hold onto that for now. But yes, R2 did originate in Iran/Iraq region and there are views that in middle-easterners some R2’s could be some of the Northern Israelite tribes who were mixed in the above regions as there are many Jews who are R2 also. (Abraham was from Mesopotamia and his father was an idol-worshipper/pagan but a Hebrew). Jews were never a distinct “race” from others around them but did genetically get distinct somewhat due to community isolation.

And as u said we have another family sample who is a J2 Cohen (Abraham Ninan) besides the Manakalathils and I missed out on that. So that takes the Cohen families count to 2 of the total samples.

There is a H sample in ysearch of some P J Ouseph and is matching some North Indian Brahmins and so could very well be of Aryan origin.

Dear Kizhakken,

Yes there are some Indian Hndus J2’s also in ysearch database of Asia. But on comparing all these J2’s including the non-cohen J2’s of our samples u will see that most of our J2’s are genetically distinct from the other J2 Indians, based on genetic distance report. So it talks of our J2’s been almost unrelated to Indian J2 samples.

Dear Kezakken,

I hold the belief of what Jackson said above that the J2s in the Syrian Christian (admin Jacob) is different from the one other J2 in Jacobs database whose ‘owner’ is an Iyer. There is a fair difference which even a non-genetists guy like me can see. The Nasrani values are kind of bunched together, giving an impression that they are related to each other not in the distant past.

By the latest Certificate issued by ‘Family Tree DNA’ I am a ‘J2 with the subHaplogroup M172+

I am pasting info. from Wikipedia, which certainly you would have read. I know Wikipedia can’t be always trusted….

J2 (J2b2+J2a) is mentioned above to be siginificantly present in the South Western part of India (Malabar?).

Would you please comment based upon the above info. By the way the first name appearing in Jacobs ‘Syrian Christian Data Base as ‘George Palasseril is my goodself.

Be a little kind to me, I have kicked the Namboothiri and Brahmin heritage the most and now don’t tell me that I am someone with an Indian genetic heritage. Just joking, I want to know your views.

One sub Haplogroup M172* is mainly found in the Northern Fertile Crescent, the Mediterranean, Iran, Central Asia, and Southern Europe. It is thought to have originated in Anatolia (Turkey and in the province of Kurdistan) i.e. North Mesopotamia, and spread to Europe and to other Middle countries like Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq, and Syria. J2 subclades are also found in the South Caucasus (Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan), Iran, Central Asia, and South Asia: for example, Muslim Kurds (28.4%), Central Turks (27.9%), Georgians (26.7%), Iraqis (25.2%), Lebanese (25%), Ashkenazi Jews (23.2%), Sephardi Jews (28.6%), Iranians (23.3%), Tajiks (18.4%), and Pakistanis (14.7%). J2 is not regularly found in Semitic-speaking populations of Africa, such as the Amhara and Tigrinya in Ethiopia (Semino et al. 2004). However, J2 has been found to encompass several subhaplogroups (22 subhaplogroups, including 5 that have high frequencies) that originated in or expanded into different regions: the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, the Balkans, the Aegean, Anatolia (Turkey and Kurds), the Caucasus (Georgia), and Somalia (see ref: Semino et al. 2004). Haplogroup J2 used to be considered a genetic marker of Anatolian Neolithic agriculturalists. It is also very frequent in the Balkans (Greeks 20.6%, Albanians 19.6%) and in Iberia (16.7-29.1%). Its frequency rapidly drops in the Carpathian basin (Ukrainians 7.3%, Croatians 6.2%, Hungarians 2.0%) and in Southeastern Iranian-speaking areas (Pashtuns 5.2%, Pamiris 6.1%). A significant presence of J2 (J2b2+J2a) was detected in western and south-western India (the highest being 21% among Dravidian middle castes, followed by upper castes, 18.6%, and lower castes 14%; Sengupta et al. 2006).

HI,
Regarding J2 for Syrian Christians. I did not look deep into the non Cohen J2 results. I assumed that these were Indian, without further analysis. If our results cluster and are different from other Indian results, then please do ignore my statement on our J2 being Indian. My interest was always on the Knanaya story and I think I did not give enough importance to the Northist part. I also hold the myopic view that Northists have Indian ancestry – mostly that is – and tend to think along the same line. But by the look of that is not he case. George, your case was one of those which I had thought was Indian J2. I should have at least checked the genetic distance in YSearch. It does not show any Indian J2 result anywhere near. So as far as Indian J2 in our results, it looks like I am wrong. But then again I am not after the Northist results.

Regarding L1. It is considered to be the pre Indo European, but post paleolithic migration to India. It has to be the Dravidian speakers. The genetic diversity in India does not strictly follow the state borders or in fact the caste borders. Also L1 is found abundantly in Dravidian speakers but less frequently in North India. L1 is specific to India and I haven’t heard it being present outside India.

As far as R2 is concerned, as per Wikipedia “At least 90% of R2 individuals are located in the Indian sub-continent.”. So and R2 result in the sub-continent (I should become a commentator) is not surprising. If we need to say that these are infact Jewish R2, then we need to prove that – like J2 – our R2 clusters outside the Indian R2. From Ysearch, the nearest matches are Indian. But there is again, no perfect match and the distance is on the higher side. It could go either way, but my hunch is that our R2 and H results are Indian.

thanks,
Kezhakken

PS – I did guess that this George was that George.

Hi,
Thanks again, Jackson! Can you please tell us the IDs of L3-Kna in Nasrani project?

Two possibilities
1. Both Northists and Southists have L3. If this is the case then the Southists are in for more disappointment.
2. We are mistaking L1 for L3. Information that we got might be wrong. There is no L3 in our samples at all. The reason I am proposing this is, L3 is rare even in the Pakistan-Middle East belt. Druze are not many in numbers. My point is that it is unlikely that such a rare haplogroup is found in abundance in a community.

regards
Kezhakken

Dear Kezhakken,

The IDs of the Kna L3’s as in ftDNA database display are ‘N16084′ and another as ‘83541′. Makil is also a Kna and placed in L1, ID is ‘N13642′. Northist (Kollenore) with L is of ID ‘112920′ and matches the earlier two L3 Knas with 10 or 11 marker matches of 12 which indicates very close genetic relation and is even visually evident on comparing. I am pretty sure there are all possibilities it is L3 though not confirmed yet because of the marker values as I said.

U may also refer to the L hgp. project. The question mark u see besides L1/L2/L3 in the heading indicates an attempt to sub-type main family of L based on marker value differences and thus origins.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/

Hi,

“The K’nites may be from Parthia and their mother’s Jewish.”
From the samples that we know so far, all mtDNA results for Knanaya are M*. If you can still argue that they might have Jewish heritage from maternal side, I am putting forth the argument that Kananites are from planet Krypton. I would say the probability for both to be true, are almost the same – more so, for mine.

Please refer to this link. The KANAIM project admin is desperately trying to make sense out of some M results he has got and finally gets the answer that it is indeed South Asian – http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SMOTHERS-DNA/2007-02/1170584044

The claim is a farce. The project – as is my suspicion – has proven the same. They are hiding the truth! Meanwhile, we continue to try to fit the Knanaya somewhere in the Middle East. No wonder they were able to hoodwink us for centuries.

regards
Kezhakken

Hello keahakkan
i heard many times from knanites that they are from Syria. Even knanites claim that the order of worship suryani thaksa that they brought and even your church has suryani traditions mean the orgin also connected from somewhere is nt it? I read somewhere that some knanites went to Syria and took the citizenship by proving something regarding your history . Have you heard about it?

Hi Everyone,

The KANAIM project in ftdna has been removed?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Project%20KANAIM/

regards
Kezhakken

Kezhakken

You nailed the coffin of Charamketti DNA .

It need to be reprimanded. Suspicious, inappropriate behavior straight which for generations Charamkettis were doing.

It is a continuation of the same behavior. Chazikadan wrote a Malaylam book Tekkumbhagasamudayam Charitram (History of the Southist Community) in 1939. When it was translated to English the name of the book title got changed to The Syrian Colonisation of Malabar.

They know magic !

I don’t know why people go beyond the limits of expected behaviour repeating the same sequence..

Any feedback from Group Administrator: Sundeep Abraham sundeepabraham@yahoo.com

He should make the project public.

“This ethnic community has successfully maintained its unique identity over the last 1660 years by being very orthodox adherants of Endogamy.”

What is the Endogamy- I want to know about this ?

Regards
NJ

Dear NJ,

Good Day!

Are we Northist’s any better? If the Southist’s had cooked up the Jewish matter, did not we ‘Northists’ also cook up the Namboodhiri matter?
To be honest, I can understand the Southist’s claim for Jewish heritage which probably arose due to heavy stress arising from their possible association with ‘Manicheanism’ or related, but the Northist’s claim to Brahmin heritage is not explainable or justifiable other than ‘false pride, negative ego or racism’

Hi,
Haplogroup L3 is not completely alien to South India. Please refer to the following link. It’s presence is comparable to that of L1 in the North. Or in other words, there is no reason to be surprised about the presence of L3 in a population indigenous to India or even South India.
http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indians8xz.jpg
thanks,
Kezhakken

Kezhakken,

Excellent news!

And this is something I have have always believed. My theory has always been the same and simple..Physical features of ethnic groups ALWAYS stand out. The knanayas look like anyone of us, and by us I also include Malayalis of other faiths as well.

So I have always believed, often facing rebuttals from knanayites that the Knanaya community is of the same gene pool as us. If we are Arab, they are Arab, if we are Jewish, they are Jewish and if we are Paraya, they are also Paraya!

Very good news.

Dear Kezhakken and ALL,

This had to come out some day whether people accept or not or whatever arrangements of terms they use – whether Jewish first or Indian first (I still wonder how did they use the term Jewish for their results when there is not even a faint indication). We had been discussing these things long back here and now it’s public from their own mouths. So also the comments on the web link u provided are really funny. It’s a scene like someone has been hit on the head and he’s seeing sparrows flying around his head. Utterly confused comments and yet not ready to accept the truth.

Basically as the Northists are not prepared to leave the ‘Namboothiri’ tag so are the Southists hanging on to their tags. It’s an historical effect of centuries won’t erode so fast. Its only a matter of patience and time that will show who is who as it has been shown till now. Similarly let’s not get too excited because I think such facts are not very surprising because they were THERE, only kept covered for whatever valid or invalid reasons. But one thing is ‘largely’ clear that whatever the Southists are, the Northists are not and vice-versa is also true (genetically speaking). But somewhere a common link is shared for few which may have been in a very distinct past when the two communities were not separated drastically. All general rules have rare exceptions and can be expected here too as in the case of L3 also seen in a Northists sample. But the “endogamy bubble” is finally on the verge of been bursted and their propagandists also acknowledge this somewhere as is clear from their comments which reflects a kind of U-turn in attitudes wherein some among them are questioning this endogamy now.

Since the Southists themselves CHOSE to remain separate we too should leave them alone, I feel, whatever the further developments may be. Also be aware that Community and Geneaological genetics is an extremely touchy subject and must be handled with care, esp. for a community with varied and confused claims. Since Genetics gives more or less a Final SAY to ancestry quests for a community it must be studied carefully before coming to conclusions.

FOR ALL NORTHISTS HERE:

Let us concentrate more on our community studies and take up the rest as part-time interests or the main task will be left unfinished. The greater the sample size the more assuring the outcome. Hence all are encouraged to join the project and contibute to the scientific studies on our community and help in unravelling the mysteries. It will only help us ! Thanks.

Dear Jackson

That was impressive. But end of the day turth can be frustrating…

cheers, BG

I heard Thomas of cana story in a new way. In the year 345 A.D Thomas of cana, an Edessan merchant, came to malabar with 472 families of Mesopotomain Christians. The king assigned to Thomas and his followers extensive lands near his Capital city and they settled down there. Unfortunately there arose a split among the colonists, 400 families standing as one party and the rest remaining sepereate. The group of the 400 famillies stettled in the northern street of the colony and the other group in the southern street Those who settled in the north were called Vadakkumbhagar and those in the south Thekkumbhagar. The Vadakkumbhagar carried on evangelization and added new christians to their community. The Thekkumbhagar did not evangelize any and remained a community distinct and isolated. The arrival of these colonists increased the prestige and strength of the malabar church. The racial admixture and social contact of the indian christians with the foreign race served to improve their quality and to better their political, social and economic status

Hello Nasrani christianies,

I am interested in the history of the Knanayas. Wikipedia says they are syro-aramaic jews. Do they follow latin rite or eastern rite in their mass? What do non knanaya nasranies think of their place in the history of nasranies?

Dear Mapilla:

The history of the Knanayas is rife with myths and has been discussed in a variety of forums. You can search around on NSC to see quite a few of the accounts pertaining to the Knanaya.

You can also read accounts by various Knanaya members, discussing their history. Their accounts tend to advance this “Syro-Aramaic Jew” theory, or various variants. It should be noted that these theories of Knanaya history are highly variable (Jew vs. Syrian vs. Persian; fourth century vs eighth century vs eleventh century) and tend to have their origin in the 17th/18th century (when the Syrian Christians in general were busy spewing all sorts of pseudo-history).

Then you can search scholarly journals to find various articles pertaining to the Knanaya and their place within (or alongside) the Nasrani community. What you’ll find is a mutual set of legends by the Knanaya *and* the Syrian Christians in which each community claims the other to be an “inferior” and “non-pure” one.

The legend/account of Thomas of Cana seems to have been shared between the Syrian Christians and the Knanaya. That is, both historically have claimed descent from Thomas of Cana.

There are reports in some histories about a parallel community of “Manichaeans” who lived along side the Syrian Christians (Britannica 1911 cites W. Germanns 19th century history; there’s also the book “Lingerings of Light …”). But none of those seems to connect the Manichaeans to the Knanaya. However, there seems to be some “original research” (i.e., possibly bogus work) by some guy (I forget his name … you can find his work on the web … I think he’s some kind of an ex-Nasrani Pentecostal whose trying to say that Hinduism and Roman Catholicism are degenerated forms of Christianity with Manichaean/Gnostic influence. Anyways, in the midst of that “theory” — I’d call it B.S. personally — he seems to link the Knanaya to ex-Manichaeans who converted to Christianity due to Portuguese/Nestorian/Jacobite influence).

SO the story of the Knanaya is complicated by several theories, most of which have no shred of credible evidence.

The community nowadays is divided into three: one independent diocese of the Syro-Malabar (hence using the East Syriac liturgy), on independent diocese of the Syriac Orthodox (Jacobites, using the West Syriac liturgy), and miscellaneous Knanaya who joined other groups. I think the Malankara Orthodox also have Knanaya in it; I don’t know if they have a separate diocese—I suspect they do, due to political reasons (i.e., to prevent a hemorhage of Knanaya members to the Jacobite Church).

Regarding what non-Knanaya think, like I said, there’s an excellent scholarly journal article which surveys the various attitudes pertaining to the Knanaya and non-Knanaya. I don’t know what people think in general of the Knanaya, but I suspect there is a majority who don’t care, and a minority who enjoy calling the Knanaya on their mythological stories by challenging the non-existent evidence that the Knanaya myth-writers use. (Personally I’m generally in the camp that doesn’t care, but once in a while I join the other camp, because I personally have a strong distaste for mythological accounts being advanced as theories). I’m sure you can read the various comments on NSC and find examples of both camps.

Dear John,
I agree with your bold opinion on Knanaya Nasrani. But I think something has to be added, to be fair.
Their history is marred with myth, controversy, claims, doubts…..
True, but the same is applicable to the history of entire Nasrani, from view point of a criticizing/ analyzing non-Nasrani !
Knanaya’s history is entangled with Nasrani history, more, they have no stand-alone history except their claims of Thomas Cana origin. Their claim must be true; nobody claim the descendants of TC other than them! And TC is very much alive in history books as truth.
When Nasrani or any ethnic community’s claim of their origin and history of 2000 years, it will be a mixture of truth and beliefs but the gist, backbone will be true laced by legends and many fables and fiction glorified. Mostly the truth become eclipsed and thus unrecognized due to superstitious, glorified claims ! It is universal phenomenon.
Nasrani’s assertion of St. Thomas connection too is similar; the basics are true with many glorifications. Eg: many a Nasrani’s claim of 100% Judeo or Brahmin origin seems glorification: to be of upper cast, but illogical, given the existence of lower castes.
Likewise the Knanaya claim of pure TC origin too seems illogical. The claim would have been true, if they were inhabited for last 16 centuries in a marooned island or so! Even though no 72 nuclear families can survive 1600 years, keeping racial purity; from scientific point of view.
Whatsoever, they know not where they are lead by the belief to: fast extinction !
(Also I wonder how come they with SMC fold when TC is Antiochean ? If the claim of purity is true they should have been the ardent Antiocheans, at least with Jacobite/Orthodox Christianity rather than with ‘Roman-tainted’ SMC ! Any explanation?)
Tail piece: Is scientific reasoning forbidden to believer and Nasrani ? Nasrani will be more credible as ethnic race ‘with’ our basic claims, if we could shed many illogical, superficial, near-superstitious ornamentations we carry on our physic. We may have to rewrite our history and heritage deducting such ‘beliefs’ to be acceptable to scientific yardsticks. Along with us Christ too will be more a credible reality to many Christ bashers. This too is a way of apostolate. Till then we will be a race “claiming” suspicious heritage.
Just analysis, no more judgment. Thanks…..

Dear Sunny,

I believe Thomas of Cana was claimed by both the Nasrani and the Knanaya are their “ancestor”. At least that is what I gathered from my readings long ago on this topic. I can’t cite my references right now, but I can dig them up if needed.

And who said TC was “Antiochene”? I’ve seen Thomas of Cana being referred to as:
-a Jewish Christian from Palestine
-a merchant of “Syria” following the West Syriac Patriarch
-ditto, but following the East Syriac Catholicos
-an “Armenian”
-a Manichaean

I believe the only ones who claim TC was “Antiochene” are Jacobite Knanaya. I’m sure the SMC Knanaya claim a different origin.

Now, TC’s historiocity is far from certain. Maybe he existed … but when and where?

But you’re right, both the Knanaya and the Nasranis seem to have enjoyed mythology over proper history, and I was wrong to imply that only Knanaya history is fictional. But to the credit of the Nasranis, we never seemed to take our fictional histories too seriously — to the extent that we preached/practiced in-breeding (endogamy).

I would think like the Syrian Palestine decedents of course in both nothist and southist thorough several immigrations. and some of these people inspired in kerala culture and shared culture by mixing and lived peacefully I don’t think that there is any superior facts in these immigrant Christians to stay away from new converts. I think these Syrian Palestine Christians blood is on northist but it not really evident so far at this point knanaites have. I believe the immigrants Christians already got mixed in their early times but later on being impure from Syrian origin, some group started not to mixed further and stick together so far they feel as the immigrants ones that why I think they do have a malayali look along with their Syrian Palestine looks and posted a tag as knanaya Christians . Again I heard that knanaties had not been had the name knanaites till 19 the century instead they known as just thekkumbhagar southist. But even in northists some family in our place that I know also carrying these evident middle eastern look why. Some achayans are called as sayaps because of their puchakanna and some blond hair too, One lady I saw which is belong in northist look like so foreign her skin color so fair which is not a major fact still she got lot of other features. But I do believe that lot of northist white skin facts are came from these immigrant side rather that saying it came from brahimn or Aryan side

Dear Mr John Mathew

If you got time and inclination I will sit with you and give a lesson or two about Knanayas and more the hisoty of early chiristianity

Saji Mathew Palliambil

The Knanaya under the leader ship of Mr Thoman Knanayo ( syrian trader ) came to India In AD 345,along with 400 families,accompanied by decans,prestis and A Bishop Urha Mar Asouep.

They landed in Kodungallor and presented then the ruler the Cheraman perumal with Gold and other gifr obtained land and allowed to build their church in Mhadevarpattanam.The ruler given them the previlaged status and positions{ ( 74 nos ) Knanai thoman Copper Plates}

They are Jewsh Christians form South West Asia, and they practised all the jewish traditions like Endogamy,Circusition ,sabath and Passover festival.

They setteled in the south side of the Mahadevar pattanam and in the north side settled the native christians ( who converted to christiany form the native caste).

Even today the Knanaya practise Endogamy and if any one do not follow the same he is expelled form the church.Because the Jew practive Endogamy so the Christian of Jewish orgin practice Endogamy.

If any body need more clarification I will provide.Ask specific questions.

Dear Saji Mathew Palliambil,

No need for private lessons on topics that you don’t seem to have expertise in (judging by your comment which seems only to report only *one* of the many variable myths that exist on the topic). The history of early Christianity is quite well documented, and I’m versed in what’s been written on the topic (there are plenty of books on the topic, including older ones by venerable scholars that are available online at http://www.archive.org, or any good library, for anyone to become sufficiently versed in).

Next, the history of the Knanaya consists, at this point, of mere myths that have been developed and re-developed in the centuries after the Portuguese arrived in Kerala.

1) There is no documented evidence of when Thoma of Cana came to Kerala. Ditto for who he was (Persian, Syrian or Palestinian Jew — all three are mutually exclusive).

2) There is no documented evidence that he came with Mar Joseph, or even that “Mar Joseph” existed. In fact, even the allegiance of Mar Joseph is disputed: (1) Jacobite Knanaya claim he was sent by the Patriarch of Antioch (which is obviously ridiculous), (2) Syro-Malabar ones claim he was sent by the Catholicos-Patriarch of the East Syrian Church. And *BOTH* of these myths dispute the “Jewish-Christianity” of the Knanaya, since both of those Churches are non-Jewish Christian Churches. Jewish Christianity was centered about the Church of Jerusalem and became largely non-existent by the fourth century. Neither Antioch nor Babylon are Jewish Christian Churches!

3) Before the 20th century, the non-Knanaya (i.e., the regular Syrian Christians) claimed Thomas of Cana as their ancestor, and viewed the Knanaya as the illegitimate offspring of Thomas. That is, both communities viewed the other as being impure! However, as the 20th century brought more pressing issues for the regular Syrian Christians, they stopped with the Thomas of Cana business.

4) The Knanaya *DONT* practice *circumcision*.

If you have some *history* to share, please do. But spare the non-provable myths that (1) have no documented basis, and (2) aren’t even fixed (the Knanaya *story* seems to change based on (1) the denominational affiliation of the story teller, (2) the year, (3) whatever other factor you can think of). We’ve all heard the stories, and most of us have reached nothing but dead ends in trying to figure out the documentation that supports your stories.

There are some that claim that the Knanaya are nothing more than the Manichaeans that are *documented* (ref. W. Germann) to have existed *alongside* the Syrian Christians (as of the 15th century). These people claim that the Nestorians and later the Portuguse and later the Jacobites *converted* these Manichaeans to Syrian Christianity between the 15th and 17th centuries. Now, is this true? I don’t know. But it is a *story* just like your *story*. The only difference is that there is:
1) documentation that suggests that a parallel community of Manichaeans existed along side the Nasranis
2) evidence that the Knanaya were always kept *apart* from the Nasranis (in smaller Churches, no less)
There is *no* evidence for any of the Knanaya stories.

If I’m wrong, and you have evidence, please share.

Dear Mr John Thomas

If there is any documentray evidence that St Thomas came to kerala,if so please give the reference so I can go through that.

Dear Saji Mathew

Your best bet would be to go through this NSC writings and comments. They contain lots of information.

Dear Saji Mathew,

You say that the Northerner’s were converted from ‘local casts’. Please support your statement.

John Mathew “…Before the 20th century, the non-Knanaya (i.e., the regular Syrian Christians) claimed Thomas of Cana as their ancestor, and viewed the Knanaya as the illegitimate offspring of Thomas. That is, both communities viewed the other as being impure! However, as the 20th century brought more pressing issues for the regular Syrian Christians, they stopped with the Thomas of Cana business…..”

I was thinking about pointing this out, but you did and saved me from some efforts. You can find an old article from an academic journal about this, online.

Also I want to say that the main stream were never called as Northerner and not required to be so (they had a better name, nazrani.

My main point in this comment is something else: I was told by an old man that the “uncorrupted tradition” ( unlike the present ‘anybody can make a story’ era) is that Thomas of Yarusalem came in BC with some families and settled here. Then the illegitimacy case you suggested occured and main stream seperated them. Many centuries later St. Thomas came, people from both converted to Xianity, but the sepeartion continued. I wait for your take on this point.

Another point I wanted to make is that IF St Thomas converted us we are bound to be mainly jewish because, I hope nobody will be offended, untill Xianity being hijacked by St. Paul the Jesus movement has been exclusively for Jews. Mathew’s Gospel is an example. Luke and Acts are FOR Paul. Conversily, IF it can be proved, say by genitics, that majority of Xian in the first century of Malabar are of Jewish origin (almost impossible to prove, I suppose because of mixing), that supports the arrival of St. Thomas here, assuming the Concil of Jerusalem held later than Thomas visit here in 52. To make the theory better the date of arrival of Thomas may be reconsidered, let us say AD 40!! BTW What is the basis for the EXAT year AD 52, every body is so sure about it, nobody wants to say vagualy as first century or soon after resurrection! I saw some where else an exact DATE of his arrival. There must have some reason for the sugested date and I would like to know, if any of you are aware of it.

One more point: the ‘observation’ of Philip that Thekker is having a more ‘midle easterner look’ is probably wrong. My observation suggests that they are more similar to rest of the people of Malabar than many of the Nasranis are. Philip’s observation might be biased probably he didnot correct his ‘data set ‘ by the ‘immigration/rich’ factor. Dispropotionaly more Thekkar are in less SUNNY countries/areas so they tend to be more fairer than somebody living under sun/kerala, and you might seen many of the just returned/protected from sun, Thekker

From your ‘Research’s” you seem to have traced Knanaya DNA’s to, Indians, Lebenese, Pakistanis, Persian’s, Iranians ,Etc. I request you to to search for more connections say 70/72 nations of the world( of
the old order) probably then we would be able to understand more as to what “Knanaya” is about.. Please
do it if you are really intreasted.

Dear Non-southerner:

Regarding the term “Nasrani” for the “northerners”.

I was reading an article (I’ll dig it up, if you want) on the title “Mappila” and it mentioned that the term applied to the various immigrant groups in Kerala: Jews, Christians, Manichaeans, and Muslims.

And then it gave the terms: Yehudi Mapilla, Nasrani Mapilla, Suriani Mapilla, and Yavana Mappila.

My questions:
1) is this terminology correct?

2) If “Nasrani Mapilla” is the historical term for the Christian northerners, was “Suriani Mapilla” the historical term for the Knanaya/southerners?

3) Could it then be that the Knanaya (the “Suriani Mappila”) were Manichaeans?

Finally, I don’t think the “uncorrupted tradition” you mention is any more valid than the current stories — if our people couldn’t keep a decent history pre-16th century, what are the odds that they could keep a decent history stretching back to the BC era. I don’t buy it. But it’s interesting, nonetheless.

IF knanaites are Jewish at least show some quality in it and show your biblical rooted culture to others instead don’t walk around in fences to collect mylanchi leaves to increase your fairness of your skin and that seems knanites main agenda and their Jewish ness?. If those agenda try to imply in a REAL nasrani family it totally a pagan one and those individual’ s placements will be out from those nasrani houses. Instead nasrani forefather’ s interested in wake up in morning and open his song book and reading his bible and start doing his own business that thinking u look fair that me isn’t it or let me buy a fair and lovely to increase my fairness. A Jewish rooted person are fully dedicated to god which once god asked Abraham to sacrifice his one and only son and he obeyed but God gave his words on him. And a real Jewish based individual knows what YEHOWAH wants a man to be than lot of gentile in the world doing nasty stuff in their life. And he shall obey all his ten commandments and stay away from all gentile pagan culture and that what I believe all real NASRANIS if exsisting today are all about which I can think at this point

the idea of pentecost and thus such a name did not come to be untill the fourth century.
if i remember correctly the idea was voted upon in that very council of Nicea.
I advise googling the encyclopedia irania or the word tarsa or tarsagan .
I believe those communities elsewhere came to light after some inter christian wars, certainly not 1th c. AD
Rome in it’s byzantian form was merciless. ‘mar’ is connected to sasanian communities (f.i. armenia georgia) and christian sogdian i.e. syriac estrangela.
THE SYRIAC PSALTER CONTAINS 5th century zoroastrian words.

Mani also milked the stories of sts. thaddeus and bartholemew sounding almost the same as the legends of Thomas etc. Conversion of royal courts that are all historically unlikely.
Interesting, but the last word about historic ‘facts’ is far from said; it should not be used as lightly as done in this paper.

sincerely

apropos Georgia. On a travel program for MTV about six years back, while visiting an old castle, or at least trying to find it… the anker came upon a guy waving a broadsword at him into the pitchdark mountain night and had to make a running escape.
It turned out, as the translator discovered the next day, to be a real crusader, all be it in ‘father to son ‘ tradition. Totally unaware of goings on in the rest of the world. Still dressed and smelling like a knight.
One translation has ‘tarsa’ pejorative as funking=smelling of sex or really bad smell.
tarsagan- no fear of yhwh
tarsaq sogdian loanword trs’q
new persian tarsa
3th c. zoroastrian priest

middle persian \ SYRIAC
KLSTYD’N – KRISTYANE
N’CL’Y – NASRAYA or DAHLA (yahra)
cf. Heb. notsri and psalm 135.20 Heb. yirei yhwh ‘fearers of the name.’

ark ayits ark ay persian ‘king of kings’, sapur I might have deported greek christians to the east.
noah’s ark- yoah ’s kingdom? i often wonder about ancient meanings of words especially in myths or stories with a lesson.

two books written also on the spread of christanity in arabia and india.
jacobites, not nestorians for arabia though koran sounds distinctly manichean.
Mingana

as far as i know there are only 3 primary races among humans. they are caucasian, mangoloids and negroids.the caucasinas are seen from white to skinny(eg. cochini jews)

Mr.Kezhakken, I have read many heroic stories of Knanayas. Most of them you can see in Internet, with out any bibliographical information. Do you know more about how the Knanaya community was at the time of the Coonen Cross Oath, Syond of Udayamperoor etc. I am trying to see some real documented history keeping the legends apart.

Dear All
I am a knanaya christian based in Mumbai and have only an oral tradition to go by. I hate to get bigoted about this but if there is diversity of some kind lets welcome it and enjoy it. However if we need to take ourselves too seriously and insist on the distinctions then we must be ready for scientific scrutiny. I guess the DNA tests are a good scientific basis. I am also sure that somewhere in the not too distant past the distinctions were mentioned in historical texts. The places to go hunt would be in the middle east and in the monasteries of the middle east. I dont think the latin church will have much to go by including the Roman catholic because by the time the Pope indulged us the debate had already become political and like we see in the politics of today positions would have hardened. I also feel that as a catholic the more likely historical connection would be found evaluating the jacoba connection as that stayed connected to the middle eastern origins of the kerala church.
Does anyone have any material to read which is based on solid research ? Swiderski according to my father (who incidentally is quoted in Blood Weddings) came to Kerala and made some cursory studies and wrote the book which consequently does not seem grounded. Pity both ways. For those who were wanting proof in support of the Suddists and the naysayers.
Cheers
Paul

Dear All
I am trying to make a small handbook for my kids who study in Mumbai on the heritage of the Syrian Christian and the Knanaya Christian sub grouping. I dont want them to get any false notions of what this means other than an objective assessment. I also want them to be open to all debate which is kept reasonable. Any suggestions on how to organise myself?
regards
Paul Abraham

Can someone point me to some good reference on Knanaya history. I know a plethora material available in Wikipedia and internet .

Are these statements from a website correct.

Before the synod of Udayamperoor in 1599, the Knanites had five churches of their own: Udayamperoor, Kaduthuruthy, Kottayam, Chunkom and Kallissery. In some other churches they had one half the share along with other Syrians (Northists). So Knanites were called Ancharapallikkar (owners of five and half churches).

Under the Chaldean Bishops some records can be interpreted in the sense. that at one time in the sixteenth century the Southists and Northists had their own archdeacons who exercised ecclesiastical jurisdiction over their own respective communities.

From the year 1600 onwards, the Latin Bishops of the Portuguese Padroado as well as of the Propaganda Fide, who governed the St Thomas Christians, respected and preserved this distinction between the Southists and the Northists also ecclesiastically, instituting separate parishes for these communities, and appointing only priests of the respective community as parish priests.

http://www.knanayaitaly.com/kottayam_diocese.html

Dear George Thomas:

Your quote from that website says it all: “…some records can be interpreted…”
1. Do they report *which* records? No.
2. Do they report the text of the records? No.

The info provided, hence, is useless to anyone trying to obtain a scientific understanding of Knanaya history.

Much of what’s been written on the topic by Indians and external observers is similarly useless. For example, that site, a Syro-Malabar one, claims the immigrants as from the East Syriac Church. The Syriac Orthodox faction claims that the immigrants came from Antioch. What does this tell us: that no one actually has any objective info on the topic.

Also, it’s worth noting that in the old days, both the southist and northist communities claimed descent from Thomas of Cana.

The Knanaya also claim Jewish Ancestry and advance some hybrid Syriac Christian/Jewish identity — not understanding that the Jews were not particularly liked by the Syriac Christians. It seems very doubtful that a West or East Syriac Christian community would exist that claimed pride from Jewish ancestry.

There are some decent papers on the matter (I can dig them up) but they don’t shed much light other than to expose the fact that there are *no* objective facts on this issue. The Knanaya seem to have a history of spinning new stories. E.g., the East v. West Syriac thing, the Syriac v. Jewish thing, and now this novel theory that two archdeaconates existed! This is absurd, and seems to be nothing more than a subtle re-writing of history to downplay the very real piece of information that messes up their pretensions: that the Archdeacons — those recorded by history — were definitely NOT Knanaya. So now they say there were two streams of Archdeacons. Please. There is no info on this.

Do I dislike the Knanaya? No. But am I being harsh? Most certainly yes. I have no patience for people who distort and rewrite history. This includes Syrian Christian historians, Knanaya historians, and my favorite distortionists, the Mar Thomites.

Note: The wikipedia article and anything you’ll find on the web on this topic seem to be utterly useless. There are fools on both sides who have written nothing other than 100% fiction on this topic. I’ll look into digging up the sources I’ve found. Again, these sources are only good because they’re impartial: they have no real substantial history to offer, because none exists.

Maybe you can ask that Knanaya priest for some more info on the “Chaldean records” that he’s “interpreting.”

Perhaps it is also significant that the community claims it’s old name as being “Owners of the five (and a half?) Churches”.

This seems to conflict with an origin of the Knanaya in the 4th century — or even in the 10th century. Like some have indicated, the origin of the Knanaya seems to be post-Portuguese, and perhaps due to the divisive tactics of the Carmelites (and imitated, it seems, by the Jacobites).

It may also be significant that Anjilimootil Kathanar, the priest who aided Mar Thoma I of the Puthenkoor, didn’t seem to have any problem being an aide of a non-Knanaya.

At any rate, these silly pseudo-histories that we find on the web are hollow, lacking any depth to all but the most simple-minded of people.

I heard many versions of knanaya stories that knanayas connected to a Muslim race than some connecting it to a Jewish one. One guy said that is why knanayas having mylanchi and marriage traditions like Muslims that it has to be in a luxurious way. If they would have fled Malabar because of religious persecutions from Syria then why they could think not to mix with Hindu or any. Another version says knanaya thommen king named him who was a merchant went to Syria from Malabar and told about Malabar Christian that tons of nairs and namboothris converted in Malabar but the hide to say that they are Christians. Those Christian Syrian decided to go Malabar but made an oath not to mix with Hindu and reached Malabar to give strength to Malabar Christian seems like an purpose tour to Malabar than it says fled Malabar because of religious persecutions.

Here there is a confusion that persecution happened in west Asia or in Malabar. Some even says we are Portuguese decedents from Goa. I heard from a my close relative sumo driver who is my best friend that he witnessed many marriages the reason that he became a driver and could go anywhere and witnessed almost all cultures. and he is saying kana marriage is the worst luxurious one than he could see any other marriage or functions in his life.

What I m also thinking northist and southist can be splited from the same group that the king separated because of different opinions among them. I don’t think we can connect those people who converted by St Thomas who were Jewish or may be the nasranis with northist because they are totally different the this separation is not happening at the same time. I would say if I want to find these west Asian /Syrian people I could see them in all denomination and we can find these sort of Persian west Asian look are on many individuals. I thought then what is knanaya is all about which I think those are just people assumptions that they are original since 3 ad or 6 ad unbelievable. Finally, I would say there had been Syrian or west Asian immigrants fled to Malabar but they mixed sort of and distributing these blood in all denominations who are the people devoted to christianity

Hi,
I am a Kearala Christian did a DNA test and I am exact match with other Knanaya people. I did ask the Geneology department if they had found any matches with the Jews. They couldn’t find a single Jew that remotely matched or has any links with our DNA. If we had Jewish origin there should have been some match with the Jews (atleast some level of matching) . So I am not really sure if we have Jewish origin. We probably have the same traditions but the origin seems a bit doubtful.

Hi Elizabeth Blessy, u want to ask that blessy did your mtdna .right? what i know male have ydna and these can be the same in all patrneal side but in mother/female side it changes on individuals that is why i asked and did you find your mtdna as m* which we found lot of in syrianchristians and knanaya mother/female side. so that is why i m asking to know about it. do you mind say anything about it?

Hi Elizabeth,

As RP has mentioned, mtDNA of Southists and Northists may be very similar as both are undoubtedly Indian.

Now, even If you had tested the paternal lineage, – Y chromosome DNA that is – it is still possible to get an Indian result. If you see the Familytreedna site for Syrian Christians, Southists and Northists both have a lot of L1(South Indian) results. Same is the case with the mysterious L3, both groups have it. The fact that a Northist result is identical to that of a Southist is not surprising. We already have such data. And indeed, in such cases the DNA results have so far pointed to Indian ancestry.

If it is okay with you, kindly share the results (both Southist and Northist) with us in the forum so that we can get this confirmed.

When our entire mtDNA (except for an R) and when about one half – or more – of our Y-DNA is Indian, the fact remains that we are indeed a good part Indians. But then, there is a strong presence of West Asian DNA as well. The commonsensical explanation is that Northists seem to be mixed. Southists do not have any trace of West Asian DNA.

Kezhakken

Hi rp and Kezhakken,

Yes I did my mtDNA. My haplogroup is M*. My HVR1 results are exact match of only Knanaya people. Yes I agree female or maternal side can change but won’t it show some connection atleast with the Jews. I would be interested to know if any male Knanaya has done a yDNA and got any Jew match.
Thanks.
Elizabeth

Hi,

I have joined this discussion with an open mind and am neutral. I don’t want to support any one denomination. I don’t give much importance to denomination because it is man made. Anyone who believes in Our Lord is His child. We all belong to the family of God. There is no denomination there. I am only interested in the ancestory just to know if and how the migration took place.

Thanks,
Elizabeth.

Kezhakken, But whatever it is, both knanaya and northist got some westasian or syrian features. for an easy analysis if kezhakken can take a look for example marthoma tirumenis or any other denominations bishops i think most of them have middleeastern looks. Even if i m a northist but i m still saying some knanaya are looking forigen sort of or i believe sort of an arabic features or something. I do believe in all these but i m not that ok with knanaya saying they were original since long long time ago. So what i want to share is that there are plenty of these westasian looks/features among N/S communites and how is that explain to our dna results. Again recently i heard that L2 halpgroup matched with a cochin jew and it considered as middleeastern. So anyway i mentioned my ideas

To Elizabeth, Kezhakken and others,

I would like to clear some of the misconceptions brewing here lately with regards to Elizabeth’s concerns. Please DO NOT to make conclusions on ancestry just from the haplogroup. I have been saying this on the forum since months and thats how it is in geneaology.

Elizabeth,

Majority of the Syrian Christians tested for their mtDNA (maternal heritage) have shown it to be M* which is almost entirely supposed to be of Indian origin. This possibly is because of local mixing. Meaning local (Christian/Hindu) wives were taken at an early stage of history when the migrants were settling here. Also since your mtDNA results match with other Knanaya’s mtDNA it only means your specific maternal lineage and those Knanaya people’s maternal lineage came from similar (Indian/Asian) maternal sources. So that just says both Knas and non-Knas have an Indian maternal heritage due to whatever reasons. This in no way speaks for the paternal lineage which is the real long-term indicator of origins/ancestry of a community’s members.

Kezhakken and All,

The L haplogroup detected in our samples are NOT OF SOUTH INDIAN origin. The L type of paternal lineage or Y-DNA DID NOT originate in India. You may verify this with National Geographic (not wikipedia please). There is no research evidence to support this theory. L1 is found in India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and other middle-eastern countries. L3 is middle-eastern and largely limited to areas of Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iraq/Iran. L2 is almost indicative of mediterranean descent.

So the conclusion that L1 is “South Indian in origin” is totally wrong. Also saying L is Indian in origin is another mistake. There is no literature or evidence to support this statement. L haplogroup (including L1 and L*) is very common in Lebanon (esp. those tracking their descent from semitic Phoenicians) and also found in Syrians, Israelis, etc.

Genealogy genetics goes beyond just seeing haplogroups. It is the characteristic mutations (like SNPs) that give a clearer knowledge of one’s ancestry and this must be studied in combination with community traditions (not folklore), historical data, migration history if any and physical anthropology of one’s family and community members.

PLEASE NOTE: For an additional information, one of the L samples in the Syrian Christian database is an exact match with a Cochin Jew who also is L haplogroup. Another L1 sample of a Knanaya is a match with samples from Lebanon. Also L haplogroup is yet to be detected in other Keralite populations. It (L1) has been detected in Chitpavan Brahmins of Maharashtra whose origins also is disputed and unclear. If you take a look at the Kerala DNA project all the L haplogroup members in that are Nasranis.

So that is enough info I presume to not make wild conclusions and generalizations. And the project administrator has received feedbacks from the DNA testing institute (FTDNA) and holds that the L haplogroup (Y-DNA) tested samples in the Syrian Christian project database are almost all of middle-eastern lineage/origin (both Knanaya and non-Knanaya L samples).

Dear All

I read the different explanations/ interpretations on DNA test results. A possible inference the DNA results can offer with a substantial sample count is too dear. Right now, the sample size is too small and it might not be proper to make any conclusions for any favorite theories by considering the different traditions we have.

I think in this case enough consideration need to be given to the family history, different writings of sixteenth and seventeenth century. This has been suggested earlier on getting more information about different family history and what exactly was reported earlier atleast since we have some written records and evaluate so and so.

Some of the prominent families were, Pakalomattam, Sankarapuri, Kalli, Kalikav, Koykkam, Madeipur, Muttodal, Nedumpally, Panakkamattam, Kottakali which claim conversion from Namputhiris .There were priests in some of these families which even claimed 50th or 61st and so succession ordained by Saint Thomas.

Ramban Pattu mentions Maliekkal and Kadappur as Rambans.

In a report of 1604, there is a mention of four principal families of Saint Thomas Christians who had come from Mylapore. The mentioned family names are Cotur, Catanal, Onamturte and Narimattam.

We know about Mudalali ( settled in Cattanur and Kallada ) family as descendents of eight century immigrants. Tholanikunnel as decedents from Edessa. ( Post -7223, has more information)

Then there are families from Manigrammakkar trade guild ( Some of them are Nairs now and it is said there are families from this guild in Quilon, Kayamkulam, Mavelikara etc), Dhariyaykal trade guild also called as Thiruvankkodanmar ( Some of these families are said to be now in Kundara, Palai, Valavur, Thumapaman, Piravam etc). The Thiruvankkodanmar, especially had Kudumi until three generations back.

Some of the Thiruvathacot Christians claim they are Chetti converts. ( now they are scattered).Tarisa Christians claims Brahmin origin and even had the practice of tying punul on male children after baptism until two or three generations back.

We see a very complex mixture from some of the very known family traditions. What I mentioned above are just some of the local traditions. Some families from Karunagapply, Harippad, Kayamkulam maintain that they are Buddhist converts. Some other families maintain they are Jewish in origin and some others as Persian Christians. There were also gradual additions to the community in all the present denominations.

When we come to the Southist ( Knanaya) story, at least in my opinion what can be read from some of the earlier documents is the claim of their descent from Thomas and his Syrian wife slowly building up with initial records. Thus there is a claim of the blood as pure Syrian. As we gather from the Portuguese writings the initial story of pure Syrian blood was not accepted among the Northist. There were some quotations of some antiquity which say Thomas of Cana married two Indians and settled here.

Well, as time passed this story was adapted very later into as from Mesopotamia and then finally in to a Jewish theory presenting them as Jewish Christians which we hear today. Syrians hence became pure Jews!

It would be proper to remember all this before you take any theories seriously. The inter- marriage among Nasranis were also reported differently in some of the travelogues ( like marrying Nairs in Sixteenth century etc). Overall it’s complex and we know very limited to make any conclusions.

Admin,

I agree with you fully that it is impossible for us to make generalized conclusions of a heterogenous community like ours. And I guess down the ages as per convenience and social demands certain ancestries or theories found more propaganda than the other and thus became blanket terms for the entire Nasrani community.

Also I presume you will not be surprised when I say (and its out there) that the title ‘Ramban/Rambam/Rabban’ is of Jewish origin, a title given to a Jewish religious leader, philosopher and/or teacher of high acclaim in Judaism and the Sanhedrin (Jewish council). This title originated in the 1st cent BC-AD Judaism as the religion was splitting into two schools of thoughts of Hillel and Shammai.

Gamaliel I of the Jewish Sanhedrin of 1st cent. AD was the first person who held the title and he is even mentioned at many places in the Acts of the Apostles having spoken in favour of the early Jewish Nazarene Christian community.

The Jewish encyclopedia writes on the title Rabban/Ramban/Rambam ………………
“It is a title given only to patriarchs, the presidents of the Sanhedrin. The first person to be called by this title was the patriarch Gamaliel I., ha-Zaḳen. The title was handed down from him to all succeeding patriarchs. According to Frankel (“Hodegetica in Mischnam,” p. 58), Gamaliel I. received this title because he presided over the Sanhedrin alone without an ab bet din beside him, thus becoming the sole master.”

“Gamaliel appears also as a prominent member of the Sanhedrin in the account given in Acts (v. 34 et seq.), where he is called a “Pharisee” and a “doctor of the law “much honored by the people. He is there made to speak in favor of the disciples of Jesus, who were threatened with death (v. 38-39): “For if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught: but if it be of God, ye can not overthrow it.” He is also shown to be a legal-religious authority by the two anecdotes (Pes. 88b) in which “the king and the queen” (Agrippa I. and his wife Kypris; according to Büchler, “Das Synhedrion in Jerusalem,” p. 129, Agrippa II. and his sister Berenice) go to him with questions about the ritual. Tradition does not represent Gamaliel as learned in the Scriptures, nor as a teacher, because the school of Hillel, whose head he undoubtedly was, always appears collectively in its controversies with the school of Shammai, and the individual scholars and their opinions are not mentioned. Hence Gamaliel is omitted in the chain of tradition as given in the Mishnah (Abot i., ii.), while Johanan b. Zakkai is mentioned as the next one who continued the tradition after Hillel and Shammai. Gamaliel’s name is seldom mentioned in halakic tradition. The tradition that illustrates the importance of Johanan b. Zakkai with the words, “When lie died the glory of wisdom [scholarship] ceased,” characterizes also the importance of Gamaliel I. by saying: “When he died the honor [outward respect] of the Torah ceased, and purity and piety became extinct” (Soṭah xv: 18).”

“The title “Rabban,” which, in the learned hierarchy until post-Hadrianic times, was borne only by presidents of the highest religious council, was. first prefixed to the name of Gamaliel. That Gamaliel ever taught in public is known, curiously enough, only from the Acts of the Apostles, where (xxii. 3) the apostle Paul prides himself on having sat at the feet of Gamaliel.”

So why the title Ramban/Rabban/Rambam (acronyms) if an exclusive Jewish authoritarian title (as seen above) was also applied to some famous Nasrani men in history is indeed thought-provoking. I dont know its usage in any other community besides the Jews and Nasranis.

I know many would still be shocked to read the origin of the title but this is what it is and not a title of christian or hindu origin ! And therefore the term ‘Ramban Paatu’ itself now carries deeper significance. The fact that ‘Ramban Paatu’ was written somewhere in the 15th-16th cent. AD shows the continued usage of the term ‘Ramban’ unforgotten for 1500 yrs. only to be also found in Judaism (among Judaic religious leaders) !

Also Ramban/Rabban also is apllied to a Jewish master/teacher who in respect and order is higher in degree than a Rabbi (teacher).

Could someone enlighten why did the Nasranis use this title…. a honorary title exclusively reserved for Jewish religious leaders ? Famous examples include Joseph Rabban, Ramban Maliekal as seen in Nasrani traditions/history. There is a long list of this usage.

Hi Jackson,

I understand that your argument is that the L1 results are Middle Eastern. As you have mentioned, the occurrence of L1 does span across a huge area and it’s frequency and diversity is highest in Pakistan. So categorizing the Haplogroup L1 as South Indian is incorrect. But when I had mentioned L1 as South Indian, I was specifically referring to the few L1 results that we have at hand.

I am not an expert – qualified or otherwise – and all I know is to search for genetic matches in YSearch. And here is what I have seen:

I searched for genetic matches for user ID F5S5U, who is the administrator of the Kanaim project in FTDNA. Immediate matches are other Syrian Christians and Indians (both South Indian and North Indian). He is Haplogroup L1 and considering the matches I place him nearer to Indian population than any other. I search for 4324X, a non-Nasrani South Indian result and get F5S5U as close match.

Again I search for NDE3H, who has given the name as Kuzhiamplavil and the outcome is similar.

If I check the Haplogroup L project in FTDNA, our L results do not visibly cluster with Middle Eastern results.

With the information that I have, I can only place our L1 results closer to Indian L1. If FTDNA has come to any conclusion after comparing a larger number of markers, then we need to request them to publish the numbers. But as I said, from the available data I fail to convince myself that our L1 results are also Middle Eastern.

As I have mentioned before, our L3 results are quite unique with DYS385a as 7. I haven’t so far seen this outside our community. L3 is found in India but I haven’t been able to locate any such sample so that I can compare. Our (Syrian Christian) L3 is different from the Pakistani or Afghanistani L3, where DYS385a is 9, if I remember it correctly. But again, L3 does not go beyond Afghanistan/Iran and we cannot consider that as Middle Eastern.

Please do read the news section at FTDNA Haplogroup J project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/default.aspx?section=news). They have more Syrian Christian J2a4c results, same as that of Mr. Cherian Amprayil.

Kezhakken

Apologies for posting more than once. I just saw that RP has mentioned about the occurrence L2 results among us. Can someone please confirm this?

Kezhakken

Dear Jackson

Ramban or Rabban, is not an exclusive title among Jews or Nasranis. You can see the title among the prominent monks of most of the Eastern Churches. (Some times those in charge of the monasteries).

Monasticism is very much deeply rooted in Oriental Christianity. Some say Syrian monasticism started independently before 3rd century and others say it started in Egypt under St. Antony and Pachomios and was transplanted to Syriac speaking territories. From 4th century onwards we see Syrian monasticism spreading every where and monasteries ( Dayara) emerged everywhere under the leadership of St. Ephrem, Basil, Chrysostom, Theodore and Philoxenos etc.

Some of the prominenet Rambans in Church of East were Rabban Hormizd ( 6th century), Rabban Bar-Idta etc

Historicaly there are some evidences that Monasticism was practiced early by Saint Thomas Christians. Cosmos Indicopleustes ( 535 AD- “They have many martyrs and recluses leading a monastic life”).

When Mar Timothy, the Great was the Patriarch in Selleucia Ctesiphon, it is recorded that many monks traveled to China, India etc .

It was a practice to consecrate monks as Bishops for India from Patriarch of Selleucia Ctesiphon. There is a letter from Mar Timothy I, to a Bishop before he leaves for India, “Many monks voyage to India and China with only a stick and a purse. Consider yourself to have gone by sea with as much money as they had “. There is a Persian monk named Thomas as ordained Bishop for India in 9th century.

In the book “ History of Asceticism in the Syrian Orient” says “ the route from Persia to India was covered with monasteries that created new communication line and enlivened the interchange in the spiritual life between these areas”

Joesph the Indian ( 1501) and Damnio de Goes also confirms that Saint Thomas Christians have monasteries of monks. “Both monks and nuns live in great observance, honesty, chastity and poverty etc.”

In 1606, Francis Roz, the first latin prelate of the undivided church of saint Thomas Christians address “ to the Rabbans” and these Rabbans seems to have been monks.

The Ramban songs or Thoma Parvam was composed first in Niranam by Thomas Ramban in 1601. It claim a prose account handed over in 48 generations by Maliyekkal Ramban.

Today there are Rambans or Rabbans in some of the famous monasteries in Kerala like dayaras of IOC (Pampady dayara, Vettical dayara,Vallikkattu ), Jacobite (Manjanikkara dayara ), Syro Malabar (Mar Sleeva dayara ) etc. Also in Jacobite/Orthodox side , those priests who wants to enter a monastic life are ordained as Rambans and selection of Bishops are from them.

Essentially even the Qurbana of Addai and Mari also originated in a Semitic environment. It is most probable that Jewish religious practice exerted a formative influence on Syriac Christianity in general.

Don’t go overboard with the Jewish ancestry theory.

RE: Rabban.

Jackson wrote: “So why the title Ramban/Rabban/Rambam (acronyms) if an exclusive Jewish authoritarian title (as seen above) was also applied to some famous Nasrani men in history is indeed thought-provoking.”

Rabban is used by all the Syriac Churches, as Admin explained. If you were to read the histories of the Church of the East or the Syriac Orthodox Church, you will find copious examples of West Asian monks using that title.

I would like to echo the statement Admin made about not going overboard with the Jewish ancestry thing. In Christianity (whether Roman, Greek, or Syriac), there is quite a bit of Judaism! This is not due to genetics, but because (speaking historically) Christianity “descends” from Judaism.

Eastern Christianity in particular has many Semitic characteristics—characteristics that are not due to “lost tribes” or Jewish Christianity or genetic descent, but because the Syriacs were Semites. It’s also interesting to note that despite being Semites, the Syriac Christians were also quite anti-Jewish. Not as in European anti-Semiticism, but an intellectual opposition to Judaism and its teachings (versus the teachings of Christ). And if you read further, you’ll find examples of massacres of Syriac Christians by Jews (e.g., Yemen).

So, next time we observe a supposed “Jewish” characteristic in the nasranis, let’s first double check to ensure that the Judaism is (1) not a general Semetic property and (2) not a general Christian borrowing from Judaism.

One only wishes that A. Grant and C. Buchanan would have made a modicum of effort in that respect, thus sparing us from their historical pollution.

Dear Admin and John Mathew,

I highly appreciate your inputs which I learnt now on the usage of the hebrew title ‘Rabban’ among all Eastern Christians. The point I was making (if you read between the lines) which you two also made is the “cultural impact” and influence early Judaism had in shaping Eastern Christianity including Nasranis. We agree here.

Now, what I would like to know from you both is where and when was I linking my post or Nasranis or whoever, with “lost tribes”, “genetics” and “Jewish Christianity” ? What made you come to the conclusion that I was speaking on “ancestry” or “descent” ? Point out the above words (the words you two used to misinterpret the entire topic) in my post and I stop posting on NSC henceforth.

Admin, this was your statement: “Don’t go overboard with the Jewish ancestry theory”.
John Mathew you said you “echo” the above.

Now explain on what basis… when I was talking something else (what else if you ask… the very points you also made…. “Culture/Traditions”) ?

@ Jackson,

Take criticisms in a positive spirit.
If u are here from the very beginning then u will notice that admin also was ‘gung ho’ about jewish ancestry. So may be he just wanted to tell u to go slow.

@admin

Nice to see u take realistic approch

Dear Jackson,

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying. Perhaps I amplified something I thought was there, distorting it beyond its original meaning. My apologies.

What I do know is that from reading posts here, and much of the garbage produced on the internet on this topic, and much of the garbage published in India on this topic, *some* people do seem to amplify tiny bits of their own ignorance about Semitic and Eastern Christianity into some distorted view of how the Kerala Nasranis are descendants of (1) lost tribes (2) Jewish Christians (3) Essenes (4) Zealots, (5) name-your-own-favorite-group. E.g., witness the Knanaya, who actually have less historical artifacts and literature than the regular Nasranis (I think their records start at the modern 17th century), but yet they seem to confidently claim absurdly wild — and diverse — theories about their own history. This is perhaps the most extreme example of a disturbing general trend amongst Kerala Christians — writing history whose foundations have the density of a vacuum.

A. Grant is famous for his idiotic theories on the Nestorians of Urmiah. One only needs to read a fellow Protestant missionary (his book was called “Nestorians and their Rituals” 2 vol, available on Google Books) to see an indictment against Grant’s ignorance. Similarly, Burnell—a fellow Brit—gave a scathing indictment of C. Buchanan’s similarly foolish theories on the Nasranis of Kerala.

So, Jackson, I apologize if my comment was made in error. But I seem to recall you stated in some old post on how one must take genetics in conjunction with the traditions of the community in question. The danger, as I see it, with this is people may mistakenly claim a “Jewish” characteristics in the Nasranis that is merely a general Eastern/Syriac Christian characteristic, and then amplify the worthiness of their own theories with this mistake.

If I could change my post, I would not direct it at you, but at the community in general—let’s be more careful, and not claim a Jewish characteristic when it is actually a Syriac Christian characteristic. E.g., people were making a big deal about “Pesaha” as some unique Nasrani festival. Well, I can show you my West Syriac Penqito (and I’m sure my Pazhayakoor brothers can show me the same in their Hudra) which lists the Sedros, Madrashe, etc., to be recited during “Pesaha” — so is Pesaha really unique to us?

Hi Everyone,

I have some interesting findings on our mysterious L3. As it is evident from the FTDNA Haplogroup L (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults) page, the unique characteristic of our L3 results is the value of DYS 385 which is 7,16.

I used the page http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/ to try and predict the haplogroup, when only the values of DYS 385a and DYS 385b are given. It predicted that the expected haplogroup is L with a probability of 99.7%. So it happens that these values are quite unique and are found only in L results.

Then I went to http://www.yhrd.org. And searched for this combination. There were 6 matches in total. One is a Tamil from India and 5 others are marked as Indians from Malaysia and Singapore. Indian population in Singapore and Malaysia are predominantly Tamil.

If you look at the collection of DNA samples obtained by Sengupta at http://www.dnaheritage.com/rootsweb/ you can see that there is an L3 result from Tamil Nadu. From the given abbreviation, I guess that the caste of the individual is Pallan. But this data unfortunately does not have DYS 385 data.

To me, it looks like our(Syrian Christian) L3 is Tamil/Dravidian. We need not go till Afghanistan and cross over to Iran.

50% or more of the Southist results known so far are L3. The story can now be retold as someone traveling from Tamil Nadu – in a boat of course – and settling in Kerala

References to these sites were obtained from http://www.cagetti.com/Genetics/L-haplogroup.html.

Kezhakken

Dear Jackson

The Thoma Parvam we discussed says Thomas made converts from Jews in Tiruvanchikulam. It also talks about conversion from others as well.

If you recollect I was also consistently pointing out the possibility of Jews conversion and making comparisons with jewish on many things and at times from very non credible sources too. That’s a wrong approach. We do can find many literature by a through look at our history and there is no need for many of the Knanaya kind of stories in circulation now. There are still articles here which need correction from my side. Some of the points we harp, are the most probable result because of the fact that Jewish religious practice exerted a formative influence on Syriac Christianity in general. Its natural to see Jewishness everywhere when we look only from that prism.

What John Mathew has mentioned is indeed important and need to be kept in mind by everyone. This is not something to misinterpret or misquote you. After all this is not any blame game. I have also benefited from your posts and am sure many here also feel the very same thing. I do hope that you would be around.

Dear Kezhakken

Its an interesting information on L3, which being 50 % among Southists so far ( If its an indication). Knanayas as someone “traveling from Tamil Nadu – in a boat of course – and settling in Kerala “can not be ruled out.

It might be interesting, if we seriously look at some of the folklore’s active in Seventeenth century onwards. There are few Malayalam books which are collections of these ( stories of Veluthedathi or Vellala (Is Pallan the same community ?), Thomas of Cana bringing people from Sri Lanka etc. Though some of these materials are polemical in intention, it would give some leads. Interestingly, what we find as Southist history in wiki or other places are very polemical in intention and are late opinions suggested by some people from Southist community. In this case, ofcourse there are heavy difference between opinions and what can be considered as history. A comparison of both the polemical materials would be beneficial considering the indications.

Dear Admin,

I will surely be around on NSC. It is a valuable site for sure. Only that I wanted to make my post clear. Thanks anyway for the imputs.

And I really do not understand what Kezhakken is upto trying to disprove a particular community by overdoing and overstating certain things when things have already been made clear.

Kezhakken,

If you have serious issues or doubts about the Knanaya DNA results you should contact the DNA project admin Mr. Jacob and get things clarified rather than put in your own exclusive understandings and individual mode of researching.

———————————————————————————————————————————————-

And finally I would say not as advocacy or support, but the fact is, we (Northists) simply have no right to blame or ridicule the Southists. If the Southists have cooked up some theories, then the Northists have cooked up equal blunders like Namboothiri and upper-caste stories, etc. And it all melts down to culture and traditions more than DNA as we all agree at the end of the day. So for the positive part, the Southists have been more successful and eager to preserve and pass on the Semitic/Jewish culture than most Northists. Of course there are also Northists who too have preserved the same to date. So the solution is not blame game as u said, but that both communities try to learn from the other what is positive and what needs to be preserved. At preserving some of the long forgotten Hebrew customs the Southists should get the credit even if it may originally not be theirs by any possibility.

I am reminded of the proverb ‘Thinnuge illa, theetikyuge illa’ by our attitudes…. I am not justifying the partisan policies of Southists but trying to see the little good points and enrich my own learning experience. If we are so bothered and opposed to Southists and calling their claims and traditions as stories (as if our Northist stories are not blunders) then why do we fail to preserve the same traditions and heritage while they uphold it ? If those traditions and claims are not at all true why are we bothered and opposing at all ?

The fact that we oppose them says, down the line we are struggling to get over the wounds of having lost our heritage and feel intimidated/harmfully nostalgic, when some other sub-community still continues to practice them. If not why this Southist “theories” (if stupid) still make headlines and be discussed on most Nasrani forums and blogs ? The sense and hangover of “having lost” has led to this attitude among us. We need to get over this or the blame game will continue.

The solution: We either get back the lost heritage and customs for ‘all’ Nasranis as we were during pre-portuguese era or just stop squabbling over and ridiculing those who wish to preserve them, irrespective of their DNA and descent and all the crap.

I would also like to add that, we are been misguided and continuing to interpret things to our advantage for in-fighting rather than learn and explore things and use them as a tool for cognitive research. The DNA project is the latest example wherein we are demonstrating this destructive “skill” of ours which makes lay people still believe DNA projects and testings is for divisions and superiority claims. Some have already demonstrated ! I am afraid we will ever get to really learn anything from the same in the process and the project will dig its own grave and hardly get samples in the process.

Just raising my concerns……. Shalom !

Hi Jackson,

I see the point. I was clarifying on the L3. If my repeated taunts related to the Southist claim does not encourage a healthy discussion, then I feel that it is better avoided in future.

I am particularly opposed to the stance taken by certain elements within the Southist community on adoption. Apart from this, I have nothing against the community and have great respect for their industriousness.

Kezhakken

Dear Jackson/All:

Could you please enumerate a list of bonafide Jewish customs followed by the Knanaya? You mentioned your admiration for Knanaya maintenance of the “old” customs. Well, what are these old, unique customs?

Pesaha is not one of them, since that is also a Northist custom. Descent from Thomas of Cana, neither: the Northists claimed the same.

Then what else? The only unique characteristic I came across is they have a unique song “Bar Mariam” — but that’s a Christian song.

So what is so “Jewish” about them other than their myths? I think this is what often irritates Northists: anyone whose seriously studied our history knows that historical records on individual families are quite recent. The only evidence that goes back to antiquity are general assessments of the community of Kerala and/or Indian Christians which point to our connection with the Church of the East—who were definitely not Jews and/or Jewish Christians. Yet, the Knanaya continue to advance their myths as fact. I would liken it to the irritation a scientist feels when confronted with a Creationist. It’s not jealousy, but rather disgust at the diminished intellect of the opponent.

But I’m interested in knowing once and for all what exactly these Jewish characteristics are. So far, I’ve found nothing Jewish in the customs of the Nasranis and Knanaya, except possibly Pesaha. Certainly no circumcision which is the strongest mark of Judaism.

And you too. You use “Shalom”. Fine. But why not “Shlomo” which is Syriac— and the Syriacs that the strongest demonstrated link with the Nasranis!? Or why not Pahlavi which is the oldest West Asian link the Nasranis have? (I’m not nit-picking … I’m just trying to understand your mentality. Is Syriac Christianity somehow defective that you need a Jewish identity? Or do you have bonafide evidence of such Jewish origins. And if so, please tell me because I am interested).

I agree with the Admin’s thoughts on the heterogeneous mix of our people. Even the earliest Jewish coverts of St. Thomas, would have been similar to the brown Jews of Kerala. The earliest generations of Jews had taken local wives and had children. The earliest merchants always traveled alone. Women were rarely taken on journeys across the seas. Even the first generations of British in India had taken Indian wives due to lack of British ladies.

The only chance of having a large number of Jewish women come across to India is through mass influx. Like what happened to the White/pardesi Jews, who fled from Spain and Portugal after 1400’s. They felt the Brown Jews as inferior because they had mixed blood. They also felt they no longer qualify, as Jews – as Jewishness was to be derived from the mothers side. In the beginning White Jews and Brown Jews used to intermingle, but after they had settled into Kerala and understood the caste system, they choose to be endogamous and would not further interact with the brown Jews to maintain their “purity”. This way they had managed to upsurp many of the powers which hitherto belonged to the Brown jews.

Not sure of the Knanya story mimics the story of brown jews and white jews.

Alphy, do you have any more info on how the white Jews usurped the power of the brown Jews? I read an account of how the Paradesi synagogues used to only tolerate the “brown” Jews.

Was this perhaps because the white Jews came as merchants with better foreign ties, thus achieving a higher level of prestige? What happened to the brown Jews? Did they merge with the Nasranis, or have they maintained their separate identity to this day?

Dear All

1.Northists does not have any right to blame Southists.

We need to talk about history based on facts. History, whether it is of the Northists’ or the Southists’ is always open to scrutiny and criticism. Its up to you whether you should scrutinize or not but do not discourage others from it. Considering the situations which led to lack of documents, we should examine with compassion.

2. Namboothiri/ Jew origin

There may be people who are very fond of the Namboothiri/ Jew origin than many of the elements that make up Saint Thomas history. Some people find Namboothiri/ Jew origin not open to criticism while some others find many of the events which led to the formation of different churches not open to investigation and analysis. None of the above seems to be a good approach to me.

In Post -15057 I have mentioned about Thiruvankkodanmar , Tarisa etc who are very much part of the community. There is no easy way to explain these. These also need to be kept in mind in the pursuit of Namboothiri and upper-caste stories

3. About Southists’ preservation of traditions.

I don’t know how many of you are aware that Pulakuli ( 8 days) was active part of the Southist (Knanaya) tradition till 1939. They also had a custom that tendor coconuts should be taken to church. The priest would bless one, drink a little of the water and give to the relatives of the deceased to drink in turn. With my limited understanding, I can add many like these. I get amused by statements like ‘Southists persevered many traditions from extinction’. Does anyone know from when this ’Jewish Christian theory ‘ came into picture in the Southist history ? From when the name ‘Knanaya ‘started to replace ‘tekkumbhagar’ ? I would say that they should do DNA tests with proportionate sample size and make the results public in order to substantiate their claims.

4.Records of History about Southists

There are only few reference about Southists in the recorded history. In 1516, a Portuguese priest named Penteadu talks about an Armenian merchant (without mentioning any name) who came here for economic interest.

Later Dionysio in 1578, writes for the first time the name of Cana Thomas in historical records and says he came after the arrival of Mar Saphor and Mar Prodh for trade and converted locals and lived amongst them.

There is no mention of any Vision, Colony or helping the Church here etc. It talks only about trade interest and put the arrival after Mar Prodh and Mar Saphor.

I have collected some information about what the various travelogues and letters say but don’t have full content of letters. May be someone can share.

5. Brown Jews

Brown Jews seems to have been in existence in 1901. The source is Castes and Tribes of Southern India Vol II - ( Pages- 460 onwards). There seems to be a good probability for what Alphy suggested.

John, The white Jews actually outright discriminated against their brown/black brethren. They did not allow them into the Pardesi synagogues, not did allow them to partake in their feast. Anyone marrying a brown Jew was ostracized and removed from the community. In the last 50 years they started first allowing the black Jews into the courtyard and then later the privilege to sit in the back benches

But the white jews had no qualms in claiming the same privileges bestowed on Joseph Rabban, and took pride in him, even though they recognized him to be a brown/black Jew. The later maharajas took the leaders of the newer pardesi communities as being representative of the Jewsish community as they had convinced the kings that they were more purer.

If you go to the Pardesi synagogue in Cochin, you are given the impression, that the Pardesi Jews are the last of the Jews and the Pardesi synagogue is the only synagogue in Kerala. Currently there are not enough Pardesi Jews to have minyan for the service.

Many times they forget to mention the other bigger synagogues of the black Jews in Chennamngalam and Ernamkulam. The black jews had earlier now defunct synagogues in Ernakulum, Parur, Mala, and the Kadavumbagam and Tekkumbagam synagogues in Mattancheri. There are some 100-150 black jews remaining, the rest of them have migrated to Israel

In a twist of fate now the Pardesi Jews are depended on the black jews to have minyan and for getting kosher food, the only shochet in Kerala is from the black jews..

You can find some more pictures/videos/info of the black Jews here
http://chensyn.com/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=683473

Re. Southists preserved our traditions.

Many of our ancient traditions are still alive probably because the knanaites tried to keep the traditions. Among SMC, many of the traditions are active mainly in the southern dioceses of Changanacherry, Palai, Kanjirappalli belt. This is because of the presence of “Southists” in the region under the Arch diocese of Kottayam. You can see the best example in “peshaha celebration at home”.

The IOC/Jacobites have mostly lost that tradition at all. Most of my friends of IOC/Jacobites have never heard of that. One of my Marthomite friend thinks it is a Catholic tradition as many of his SMC friends only celebrate it. (If I am wrong, please correct.)

Among SMC, dioceses at Ernaculum- Trichur belt have lost this tradition.

My understanding was that Margam Kali was also a purely “southist” one and many years ago, once I asked one of the priests why we are reviving a “southist” tradition among us.

As Admin has mentioned, many of these traditions were active among SMC until early 1900s and it is clear that when SMC was under foreign prelates, we were very keen in keeping our traditions and when we got our own prelates, they competed each other to get rid of our traditions. When Rome introduced the term “Syro Malabar” instead of “Syro Chaldeans”, our leaders strongly opposed to it and sent letters to Rome. Now, can we expect anyone in SMC want to use the term “Syro Chaldean” ?.

RE: Pesaha

Antony wrote: “The IOC/Jacobites have mostly lost that tradition at all.” I can’t comment about the qualifier “mostly” since I don’t claim to know all Jacobites and/or IOC. But from the ones I do know, every single Jacobite I know from northern dioceses observes the pesaha apam custom, whether Knanaya or non-Knanaya Only a few from the southern ones (Mavelikara-Kollam) do.

I believe someone else made a comment to this effect on NSC. The observance of Pesaha is less due to Catholic/Orthodox or Northist/Southist, but rather due to geographical location. Again, I’m just repeating this — I don’t know every Nasrani/Knanaya and so can’t comment on this.

But how old is the Pesaha appam custom? What is the oldest attested date?

Perhaps this is just a custom that creeped in when the Black/Brown Jews amalgamated with us during the Portuguese/Tippu era — hence, it is not a universal custom, nor such an ancient one. Perhaps *that* is the reason why geography is a factor. Perhaps the nasranis from the regions where the Pesaha appam tradition is observed had more admixture with black jews, while the nasranis of areas where the Pesaha appam tradition isn’t observed didn’t have much admixture with black Jews.

Just an theory …

It would be nice to know whether there are any nasrani families that have a tradition of being descended from the mixture of black jews and Christians, and then correlate this with their observance of the pesaha appam tradition.

Thanks, Alphy.

You know, the more I read about the Black Jews, the more I deplore the pseudo-historical noise put forth by various quarters on the Jewish-Nasrani connection.

Why?

Because there must be a connection, a deep one, and one that we ought to explore and examine properly — scientifically, with evidence. If only the propagandists would quit putting forth the fruits of their ignorant fantasies, perhaps we could learn the truth about our relationship to the Black Jews.

Does anyone have any info on the Shingly rite as used by the Black Jews? Any idea on Nasrani families that intermixed with the Black Jews? Any info on Pesaha observance among the Black Jews?

Hello Everybody,

I found a PhD thesis about the endogamous Knanaya community. I found his book very informative and had a gala time reading it. I am quoting from his thesis. Except for the titles none of the below sentences are mine. It is a direct English software translator and kindly bear with the English. Enjoy reading I will share the details of the book later on.

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a) Origin of Knan Country

I mention the origin of the Knanaya ‘Knan country’

The name I assume from an article in the newspaper ‘Malayala Manorama’ on 30.4.1995. It is about a Congress Jacobin Knanaya them, the few days previously held.

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b) How Knanaya history is made

The Knanaya specialists aim is to preserve the myth. They control what the community will be forwarded and how. None of the scientists wonders aloud why no Knanaya own language, at least in
Fragments, scattered around. The specialists also silent on the period between Portuguese reports of the 16th and 17 Century and occupied the new Samudayam appearance of the end of the 19th Century. For the Meantime, has no event, not even the name of a bishop, to the Existence of the Knanaya out.

Fathers are key players. Since them the divine instructions directly in Form of a dream story, conveys, sets the story in sacred their existence because of the Knanaya. With them is the beginning of that in one years of the Christian era. As a chronological measure is the time However, no significance, the quality of the annual number of 345 is beyond the Measurable. It means to be close to the origin of everything is founded Knanaya – World understanding, at the beginning divine intervention in the fate of the world in the form of Christian doctrine and the work of the apostles.

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c) How the name ‘Knanaya’ came (it was after late Mar Clemis became the bishop)

Mar Clemis is always personally involved in the fate of the Knanaya – Samudayam involved. What the community is concerned, relates to him. The “Malankara Suriyani Knanaya Church” is identified with Mar Clemis he embodies the common ‘we’ of his church members. In one of our Discussions I asked him what it meant to be Knanaya. He replied:

“I am proud of my birth-Knanaya. I feel that I have to work here, that I have to give a contribution. It is a homogenous community. The bishop can bring all together. It is a good position but I have no money. Homogenouity means Oneness. It is better to be a Knanaya than to be a Protestant or a Catholic. There you live in a vast field, in a big church. Here you are wanted. You meet the challenge here that is better than going here and thereafter. Mar Clemis is a ‘maker’. The fact that everything on him is, his Plant. He has an idea of the Knanaya identity develops and puts them into practice order. He ‘is’ a tradition that he made it entirely in its meaning and understanding.

Mar Clemis said:”I want Knanaya-songs to be written – from scientists. Other texts from the bible should also be sung. (On the table lies a printed poster. It shows Knai Thoma, a man with a white beard and turban, rich dressed, with a scepter and palm-leaf script in his hands. In the background is indicated the sea and a large sailing ship.) We will place this picture in the third altar, in all churches. We will do that very slowly. Kalli Sherry church has one for evening procession. We feel that we go on like this. Two painters have done it, maybe it is the last version. There are so many paintings of St. Mary.

I am planning another picture, when the Cheruman Perumal receives Knai Thoma but it is difficult to depict the king. Then I Want a Knanaya flag. I went to the USA, so many Jewish communities I visited them and asked: where is David’s flag? But they do not know. I want that for ours. The Jews do not know. But we shall have that. Knanaya Songs thus. I made one, that is not enough. I want a nationally-Knanaya song. The Catholics have pope.songs. We have got a hymn-making is to make a song for us. (He voiced the Indian national anthem.) Then we will only continue to exist. We have so many challenges. Only then girls and boys wants to learn and get the right community feeling. Thoma Knai is our identification, and to prove that we want flag, picture and song. The Knanaya Catholic will have to accept when I do all this. Then they will start calling themselves Knanaya, now only Suddhists. They will follow us. We are more creative and we had a bishop first.In everything they follow us. Mar Clemis successfully used to his community by the names’ Thekkumbhagam ‘and’ Suddhist ‘away. Each Designation in relation to another group acts as the self – unique tradition opposite group. Even in his late eighties written manuscript dive bied names, ‘Suddhist’ and
‘Knanaya’, equivalent to coexist.

Today, it seems, is working Mar Clemis a Knanaya identity, the connection between fathers and tradition Orthodox faith the emphasis is more on the people individually Religious steers. An answer to the question whether the new direction of a solution Patriarchy is included, remains at least for the next few years the area speculation arrested. Many travel Jacobin Apostles Christians believe convinced. They say that the ‘clever Metropolitan’ will make in a few years Relics of Knai Thoma arise, the sacralization still a little pushing, and finally a private patriarchy in the name of Thomas Knai will be found.

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d) Unity among Kanayas

The Syriac Orthodox Church interprets the coming of Kerala Knai Thomas as the beginning of the relationship between the antiochenischen and All Indien. Patriarchate and the Catholic Church historian, on the other hand are now recognized on the conviction that the early Indian Church belong to the Eastern Syriac Church. Cherian wrote: “That the Malabar Church came into contact with the Jacobite Church and its patriarch only about the middle of the 17th century is the generally accepted view at present. Few modern historians believe that the connection goes back to the early centuries of the
Christian era. ”

“The Catholics are wrong,” say the Jakobiten, “they came only in the 15-16. century. We have the proper faith. ” Kurian, priests at the seminary in Chingavanam, speaks for all Orthodox Knanaya.

Jacob Kollaparampil said added a second time in March 1995:

“The Jacobite Knanaya destorted the whole history. The Knanaya are not coming from Antioch, but from the Persian Empire. And there is no report that the West-Syrian Church was in India before the 17th century. Only after Coonan Cross with one group remained and became Archbishop Thomas Jacobite. The Non-Knanaya Jacobite accept today that before the Portuguese came there was the East-Syrian Church in India. But the Knanaya use this to anticatholic show their feeling. It is all Polemic. And they continue to mislead the people – maybe with a good intention, I do not know.”

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e) Missionary work by Thomas Cana

Mission and life of the forefathers Knanaya remember today with pride.They speak of the ‘Missionary work’ of their ancestors, by a ‘colonisation for evangelization ‘.

Mr. Lukose from Chingavanam, with me as a representative of the Press said the Orthodox Church, said:

“We brought the bible first. St. Thomas converted Hindus, but up to the fourth century these Christians had no bible. There was a Christian community but nobody to guide them, no bishop, no bible, a delaborate Christian community. They said: we need leaders! So who Knai Thommen was on business relations with them asked the bishop, Joseph, and he asked the Patriarch.

Our forefathers who came to Malabar were very Courageous because they came in a wooden boat. We lost everything, we lost the boat and our language. So, can you imagine now why we are proud? ”

A Knanaya Catholic priests in a village near Piravam said in an interview:

“We are Knai Remembering Thoma as the cause and beginning of the Knanaya community in Kerala. Whether there have been Christians before him in India is a question of discussion. Knai Thoma’s coming is a matter of truth.”

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f) What happens if you question Knanaya origin

You do not always take the easy lay people what they like or have back and forget what does not fit into their picture. Following the publication of the Scripture ‘Symposium on Knanites’, lawyer sought from James Mackil Kottayam a process against Jacob Kollaparambil too.

In his the source texts had Mackil the version of history found under Thoma Knai the two women and a second woman from the Nayar caste.

Kollaparambil defended his work as a scientist the publication of the text of Ros for the sake of completeness would have been warranted. Ros’ version, therefore, is of particular Knanaya vehemently oppose.

He had, in fact knowing that the ‘Southists’ from a’ concubine ‘descended while the Christians, the apostles Descendants of the wife of Thoma Syrian Cana were.

In a Interview showed he was helpless in the face of the allegations Mr Mackils. This brought on a process that demanded a public correction, even by the publisher of the symposium, and even the bishop, and published two further letters to Kollaparambil in which he, as he said, from a sense of responsibility towards the people of the Knanaya argued. Ros’ version, therefore, is of particular Knanaya vehemently oppose. He had, in fact knowing that the ‘Southists’ from a’ concubine ‘descended while the Christians, the apostles Descendants of the wife of Thoma Syrian Canaaneo were.

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g) About Jewish Link.

The description of the Knanaya tradition in close connection to Judaism in general and to the Jews in Cochin, in particular, serve the same Interest. In the eighties, studies of Jewish Song traditions of the Cochin-Juden show a possible link

The work has Vellian causes, the proximity of Jews and Knanaya out. The essays by P.M.Jussay, “The Wedding Songs of the Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala ‘ The term “Jewish Christians of Kerala” was coined.

To support his argument looks Vellian society other scientists, such as the Jewish theologian Shalva Weil, an Essay about the similarities of Knanaya and the Jews in Cochin written hat. Shalva Weil, particularly in the fact of Immigration of both groups, and privileges guaranteed to them in the high social status, both groups have always been granted.

Not only is the wedding rites show Vellian out to Jewish roots. Knanaya celebrated the passover, so he told them. Even the blessing of death totals among the Jewish specificity. The impression is created that not only the important phase of the wedding in the life of a Knanaya ritually strengthened, but, as Vellian writes: “As a community, the Kinanites have many special ceremonies related to various situations in life”.

He cites death rites including pulakuli, a ceremonial bath after the funeral ceremony, and sradham, celebratory acts of remembrance days on the deceased.

Striking is that other symbols and rituals of the Jewish religious community absent. For a strictly limited blood purity eight group expected a sign of special affiliation already for early childhood. The Jewish circumcision about which such a unifying featurecould, but do not know Knanaya.

The bulk of the laity is to all of its scientific exploration Community, and describes their attitude Vellian safely clearly than he to my question about the interest in the proximity of the Jews the simple answer was: “It gives them a good feeling to say they are Jewish because Jesus was a Jew.”

‘Jewish-Being’ is more a feeling than a knowledge, separated by a Knowledge of Jewish relatives. The Vellian for Knanaya claimed Blessing of death is a further indication of the discrepancy between what he established cultural ideals and the Laienpraxis. My conversations with Symposium and Shalva Weil demonstrated a possible link between the two groups.

Both authors use the existing reference material to substantiate their theories on the origin and
Togetherness of Jews and Knanaya, by the last remaining unsatisfactory, because they Framework of the hypothetical funds.

The Knanaya does not seek the proximity to the Cochin Jews living in or even to Jewish theology. The religious Over delivery outlined this relationship should not degree of concreteness accept. In fact, a deeper immersion and understanding Jewish history and theology to the holy in the history of the Knanaya Opposition occur, but the Knanaya not realize the actual severity of the fact.

h) His inference

The biggest threat to the religious tradition of the Knanaya today lies in of the alleged experts and scientifically-up verifiable historicity of the story. The classification into a chronological framework and to the protection of the narrative as ‘historical reality’ effect of the takeover in history by Specialists.

Many lay people are confused, they are no longer at ease with the Over delivery.

John,

Re pesaha.

“The observance of Pesaha is less due to Catholic/Orthodox or Northist/Southist, but rather due to geographical location.”

How can it be correct when the SMC of Southern dioceses and the Jacobites of Northern dioceses only observe pesaha ?

What do you mean by Jacobites of Northern dioceses ? Do you mean Trichur Kunnamkulam belt ? If so, the SMC of that belt doesn’t observe pesaha. So, your theory is not winning there. If you mean northern dioceses of Jacobites as Muvattupuzha Koothattukulam belt, ( vs Mavelikkara etc) then that is the geographical area where knanaites are present. Then, the presence of Knanaites in the region is the factor.

I had a colleague from Malta a while ago who told me that Christians of Malta observe pesaha. They are also an apostolic Christian group- St Paul’s Christians. Malta is an island isolated from rest of the World like the Kerala Christians. Could it be that pesaha was a custom of initial christian groups, which became diluted over the time but persisted in isolated pockets like Kerala and Malta ?

BTW, I have a Maronite colleague who said they don’t observe pesaha at home.

I would like to make a point. Pesaha celebrations that it is also person dependent or family dependent. I have seen one family celebrate but at the same time his brother’s or sister’s family do not. As the families become more and more nuclear, I think unless we put a conscious effort these traditions will die out. My opinion is that Jacobites/Orthodox/Marthoma received English education much earlier (especially in Tiruvalla side ) and many grand mothers of these denominations were working women and have never bothered to make appam on a working day and their children too didn’t bother. I also have not made it so far though my friend informed me its not so difficult to make and she made it for the first time and it did taste good. May be I will do it next year.

Dear Thomas Antony and John Mathew

I know that Southists both in Catholic as well as Jacobite side like to present them as protectors and preservers of faith and tradition. This role as protectors of faith in Catholic and Jacobite side is actually based on the position some of their leaders has taken in past.

For eg. in the Jacobite side, after the incidents which lead to the formation of Mar Thoma Church, the Jacobite Patriarch Abdalla wanted to gain complete authority over Malankara Church from Mar Dionysios. The Synod of Malankara Church did not want to give more authority than spiritual power to the Jacobite Patriarch. The Jacobite Patriarch was incensed. To take control over the Church and to get more people to his side, he consecrated two bishops. One of them was a Southist, Severios who was a close aide of Mar Dionysios,

By this Patriarch did gain support of one prominent advisor of Mar Dionysios but he gave official recognition to a division among Syrians as Northist and Southist. Hence in 1910, a Southist diocese was officially formed and recognized in Jacobite Church.

What Leslie Brown says in ‘The Indian Christians of Saint Thomas’ is that Jacobite Patriarch given recognition to a division among the Syrians which Menezes had tried to heal.

In Catholic side, the Southists were against ordination of Indian bishops and these incidents among the Jacobite together with the divide and rule policy of Carmelities influenced the creation of a Southist diocese in 1911. Both these factions say that they were protectors of faith.

The image of preserver of tradition is based on the identity creation started after the formation of these two dioceses.

It is incorrect to say that in Southern belt, among the southern dioceses of SMC traditions are active because of Southist presence in Changanacherry, Palai, Kanjirappalli belt.

In some of these locations we can also see both Jacobite / Orthodox presence as well.

The restoration of east Syrian liturgical heritage in Syro Malabar was initiated by Rome. What motivated many Priests and lay in Syro Malabar towards the restoration of East Syriac heritage are the works of Fr. Placid, who can be called as the modern father of Syro Malabar Church. As far as I understand, this has nothing to do with any effort or position taken by Southists/ Northists in general.

Jacobite Southists are convinced that they are from Antioch and came here in 3rd century. Catholic Southists, after the works of Fr. Placid started saying they are from Persia.( earlier it was Pure Syrians).

In fact, in Southern diocese of Syro Malabar the relation between Southists and Northists were not very smooth after the creation of these diocese. ( Since Southists were against Indian Bishops and later on the Northist were against the consecration of a Southist as their Bishop.).Here the Northists taking inspiration from Bishop Roz sixteenth century account of Southists still call them as Chaaram Kettikal. Also the SMC people from these area are generally more aware of the Southists history and how it evolved than SMC-northern area and other denominations.

We does can see differences in some of the traditions practiced by Northists and Southists in Southern belt. For example Pulakuli, Northists had it after 10 days where Southists celebrated after 8 days. If we examine the life and nature of Saint Thomas Christians neither divisions can claim the role of ‘preserver of traditions’.

My understanding is that Pesaha is celebrated by everyone with some exceptions which can be a result of westernization. What I know from my relatives and heard from friends is that in Syro Malabar, people from Thrichur as well as Ernakulam celebrate it. Generally they call the Appam as Kalathappam.

I know from relatives that it is celebrated among Jacobites/ Orthodox in Ernakulam, Angamaly, Thripunitra and Kothamangalam.

I heard from friends that Southist Jacobites doesn’t celebrate it in Tiruvalla since they think that it is a catholic tradition.

Also quoting from ‘Life of the Thomas Christians in the light of the newly discovered documents’ By Dr. Charles Payngot, till the beginning of 19th centaury, Pesaha was celebrated three times a year namely Fourth Wednesday of Great Lent (Mid Lent) , Nalpatham Velli ( 40th day of Lent) and Maundy Thursday.

In some of the books published before 1980’s this is mentioned as a Chaldean tradition. May be that only recently this has been treated as similarity to ‘Jewishness’. I remember that in some diocese of Syro Malabar there were advices from clergy encouraging Pesaha at home and may be these might have helped in continuing this more in certain areas.

Hello Everybody,

I hope you have read my posts. I know it is difficult to read but this gives lots of information about Knanaya. I will give a snapshot of the thesis.

The PhD thesis by Kerstin Neumann from Rotenburg / Fulda presented in Marburg, in August 1998 is entitled ‘Moon God Siva and sacred Thomas -The religious community of the Knanaya in Kerala’ for the award of Doctor of Theology, The Department of Evangelical Theology,Philipps-Universität Marburg.

http://archiv.ub.uni-marburg.de/diss/z2000/0392/

The work was funded by Ecumenical Council of Churches in Geneva, the German federal government and the academics of the Evangelical Church of Kurhessen and Waldeck.

The material for the work has been collected during several research stays in Kerala from 1991 to 1995. Dr. Kerstin Neumann stayed with many Knanaya and non Knanaya (whom he calls Apostle Christians for differentiation purposes only )families. He talked with the both Kunnacherry Bishop head of the Catholic Knanaya(http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bkunn.html) and Late Metropolitan

Abraham Mar Clemis of Syrian Orthodox branch(http://www.knanayavaliyapally.com/AbrahamMorClemis.aspx) and got permission to do a field research work among the members of their churches. He had extensive discussions with both Vellian and Kollaparambil and describes how Kollaparambil did ‘research’ to find an original country for their Samudayam so that their origin can be traced back to David.

Dr. Kerstin Neumann has recorded the dates of the interview with Bishops, Priests and even laymen. He describes christian history in Kerala, the various versions and there is an extensive list of references.

contd…..

contd….

Dr. Kerstin Neumann interviews with Metrapolitian Abraham Mar Clemis reveals the actual picture and how a ‘authentic’ history for the Kananaya people was being generated.Well, I can say this, He has successfully removed the name Southists. I believe the Late Metrapolitian was very successful in His intent of raising the stature of Kananya people. If you realy do not know the history, and hear the history from a Knanaya person now, you will even believe that they came from the promised land Cana. Also, now when you see the paintings of Knai Thomman and the reception by Cheraman Perumal, you should know whom to thank.(post 15304 – even if you have not read any of my previous posts you must read this.)

May be Metrapolitian Abraham Mar Clemis talked openly because of the rivalry between Catholic Knanayas and Jacobite Knanayas.

He quotes “Since 10.7.1980 is a new, now reigning patriarch Ignatious Zakka I, on the throne of Peter in Damascus. He combines a warm Friendship with Mar Clemis. The two men are fellow students, and it shows that Mar Clemis this close relationship to use”

He writes on Canonisation of Thomas Cana “Patriarch Ignatious Zakka I replied to the request Mar Clemis’ after only a two month investigation. On 26.2.1990 he sent a telex after Chingavanam in which he Mar Clemis announced that his request positively answered. A letter dated 6 March repeated confirmation in the Number of names of saints named KNAI … THOMA as a ‘Saint’ who has an important part in the history of our Knanaya community in India “.

Quoting Dr. Kerstin Neumann “Mar Clemis is a charismatic leader figure, a strong interest in power with diplomatic tact and charming manners to combine white. I was in the Mar Ephrem’s Seminar in Chingavanam always warmly welcomed and entertained; Mar Clemis took time for extensive discussions with me.He introduced me to key documents Available, I was allowed to read unpublished book manuscript. I had the impression of an open-minded, generous promoter conveys dignity, even the not so much as a public official had to be addressed, which I rather even be allowed to subscribe friendship. He has in his answers to my questions never hidden, but very clever to information circumvent known. Only the subsequent review of interviews with him, opened me that he never had a crucial information on its own was. I had individual aspects to find him then, and could only respond then reckon with further information or a personal opinion on receive.”

While about Bishop Kunnachery he writes,”I had only one chance to meet Dr. Kunnacherry. Our anymore lasted less than fifteen minutes and was very formal. He met me as a high public official, distanced, polite, and apparently used to Respect to be treated. After seeing him – without his questions – On my studies and my interest in the Knanaya information was received I will permit my work. For any further a ssistance He referred me to the Knanaya scientist Jacob and Jacob VellianKollaparambil.”

There are many questions which Dr. Kerstin Neumann raises, like why an endogamous society like theirs have no language and why there is no mention of this in any written document.Why no circumcision? and so forth.

my musings

It would be nice if some one get a better translation and I wish our fellow ‘Knanayites’ will step forward for a healthy discussion.

After wading through the thesis, I would like to say this,

Universally, ones identity is very important to him/her. So first you are a Man/Woman, secondly from a Particular nationality then maybe religion or Job and so worth.
So in Kerala, which is Caste influenced society, your religion and caste is a very important identity. And if you are christian, being a Jewish Christian amongst the ‘vast field’ of ordinary Catholics/Jacobites/Orthodox/Protestants gives a nice feeling since Jesus was a Jew.

Knanya leaders and ‘Scientists’ have followed Paul Joseph Goebbels (German politician and Reich Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany)to the letter and made Knanayites a Jewish Christians after repeating it a thousand times.

Dear M Thomas Anthony,

You said the SMCians of the Trichur-Kunnamkulam belt don’t observe pesaha !!!???

This statement is either a white lie or reflects “complete ignorance”. I am an SMCian from Trichur and we as many of the SMCian families here, very much celebrate the Pesaha in the traditional manner every year ! And there are no people who call themselves “Southists” or “Knanayas” in these areas. So your fantasy-theory that Pesaha is a Southist contribution is outright laughable. And I, like the other Northists here wouldnt use the term “Knanaya” for “Southists” for reasons we all know here.

So you may add the above info to your knowledge database and not repeat the blunder again !

My opnion is that as far as i know, me as a marthomites I don’t know who are the ones not obseving peshaha. What are these people saying marthomites and orthodox are not observing it and while having this syrian hasha kramam for the whole week and oshana sunday. Is it because they converted from low caste?. Whoever have that doubt go to these non kna churches and observe these people who these probably are but they don’t worry about and hijack any culture i think , so much surprise. Ok marthomites are not making appam with cocanut milk and same on othodox knanites too and my place Ranny full of orthodox knanaites celebrating it as same as non kna. And tell that scientist to observe northist who they are?
If knanites were endogamous and pure since unknown or unreachable 3rd century, then they should look pure white and sort of european features even if they r middleeastern and what the explanations that most of them they look pakka ordinary or black except some. What about these similar westasian looks among northist? which i m thinking we need to learn more about west asian immigrations joined among whole malankara syrian christians.

Dear Jackson,

Sorry, if I hurt you. It was my observation when I lived in Trichur for 3 years in mid 1990s with my family. I am very glad to hear that Syro Malabarians in that region are very keen in keeping our traditions.

I remember when I was a young boy, the priest in the nearby Latin church who was a Syro Malabarian from Wadakkancherry, observed pesaha personally at his residence. It was a silly generalisation by me with my limited observations, just like the people who are writing essays here about Nasrani DNA project with only 30 people’s test results.

There was an argument among the Syro Malabar priests of Ernaculum- Trichur belt that we are not Syriac Christians and we are not oriental Christians. They say we are “Roman Catholics” and many in the region put “Roman Catholic” as their religion/caste in the records. Jackson, could you reveal what is in your SSLC records?

Anyway, I am very happy about the fact that SMC in all regions are keeping our traditions and understand our Syriac heritage

Re Knanaites,

I am not a Knanaya.
I haven’t said that pesaha – the celebration of appam and coconut milk at home, not in the church- is a southist contribution, but I think they played a significant role in keeping many traditions like pesaha, maargam kali etc. when the northists were competing to become latinised.

A best example is the issue of the corrections on the book, Christianity in Travancore by GT Mackenzie, submitted by Nidheerickal Mani Kathanaar.

The missionaries propagated that the Malabar Nasranis were Nestorians and they have converted them to Catholics. Nidheerickal Mani Kathanaar published his articles stating that we were in communion with Rome through the Chaldean church well before the arrival of the Missionaries and what the missionaries have done here were to cause a split and the schism. The then Arch Bishop of Verapoly complained to the congregation for the propagation faith in Rome that the Syrians are publishing and teaching against the missionaries and pictures them as the cause of the splits and schisms. The congregation for the propagation faith in Rome sought explanations from the then three Syro Malabar Bishops- Loise Pazheparambil, John Menacherry and Mathew Makil.

The Northist Bishops of Ernaculum and Trichur- Pazheparambil and Menacherry -were afraid to say it was true and replied that we will take all our efforts to prevent such propaganda in Kerala. It was only the southist Bishop Mar Makil dared to sent a reply to Rome that it was true and we were always in correct faith and it was not the missionaries who brought us to the correct faith. Our orthodoxy is not something new but it was inherited from our forefathers-ex his clare patebit orthodoxiam syro malabarensium non esse quid novi in hisce diebus sed per traditionem veteruim usque nunc perdurasse. He also added to his reply that the missionaries were publishing articles hurting the Syrian Catholics and no one has taken any actions about it. He concluded that it was a good effort by the author to publish that the true faith was preserved in India amidst the pagan faiths as an example for the catholicity of the Universal catholic church and establishing that the Syrian Catholics were in true faith is a honour to the holy see and God.

Ref. Charles Paingott CMI, Nidheeriachan charithra rekhakalil OIRSI

Dear Easo Pothen:

Thanks for providing info on the thesis.

It’s good that someone is taking an objective look at matters. I do feel that with the distortion, novel theories, and propaganda being put forth on this issue (by both Southists and non-Southists), the actual history will be soon buried beneath fiction, making it very difficult for future historians to unravel the actual history of that community.

Dear John,

Thanks.

If only Knanayas have enough guts to come and discuss about their ancestry in detail.

To Knanayas (I think you are also reading this)

I wish you realize that as Christians it does not matter who your father or mother are, but that you believe in Christ.

In the thesis Dr. Neumann writes that,

Quote Mr. Lukose, whom I met in Chingavanam, is the only critical voice left, who says: “I do not like to say, we are a caste. Now we believe in saying that we belong to the Jews. What is the benefit of that? I do not find pleasure to say, I am a Jew. I want to say, I am a Christian with a special tradition and with a special share. Before God we are united, not before the people. Why can not we join together – all the churches? Sects exist because of different interpretations. But, we believe in God, we should. We can not come together because we believe in churches, not in God.” unquote

Yes, it is important to know your roots but what is the point in claiming as somebody whom you are not. It is also important to record the correct history.

Its better we realize that the way genealogical science progresses, may be History (together with written records) and journey of mankind through ages will indeed be written with the help of Science. (Dinosaurs didn’t write down that they walked on this earth).

Now claiming that you are a Jew is a matter of pride. If after a few generations, being a ‘pelayan’ is more important, will your history be reinvented again (? ) or will you fall back to “Ros’ version” of the theory and say the Jew theory was one of our brilliant inventions by our scientists of the 20th century ?

May be you are indeed people from Middle East, may be you really are Jews or some amongst you have Jewish ancestry. Be truthful to yourselves and find out who you are. If you are unwilling to discuss, YOU ARE CHICKEN !!!!

Dear Easo:

You wrote: “If only Knanayas have enough guts to come and discuss about their ancestry in detail.”

I don’t think it’s a matter of guts — it’s a matter of information. There is very little information on the subject, so it seems that the leaders of the Southists are just writing a history from scratch. And the Southist masses — like any people — follow these leaders.

I don’t think the individual Southist has anything to do with this — it looks like corrupt leaders such as their archbishops, priests, “scientists” are the problem. One must also include the Pope and the Patriarch of Antioch as facilitators — by creating separate dioceses, by issuing silly pronouncements on the “history” of the community without independent research, these individual have helped the former propagandists.

The Pope, for example, went on and made a big deal about the lack of evidence supporting St Thomas’ arrival in India. That is fine — it is a truism, and the Malabar Christians shouldn’t have complained, since the complaint made us look like vain idiots. But at the same time, why isn’t the Pope (and the Patriarch for that matter) not similarly dealing with the absence of any information — indeed, *less* information exists about the Southists than exists about the Northists — pertaining to their myths?

Many of the Southists distortion of history are totally silly. E.g., in an article on the shooting in a Southist Jacobite Church in the US, the priest displayed his profuse ignorance of matters by claiming that the Southists are proud since they brought Syriac and the Qurbana to India. Now, to be honest, I don’t care if the Southists claim to be Jews; the absence of Jewish customs simply makes them look like fools. But to claim that *my* religion came from them, is getting a little personal. My ancestors didn’t convert to Syriac Christianity because of a group of inbreeders — there’s no evidence for that! Indeed there is plenty more evidence to suggest the Assyrian and Persians who were responsible for bringing Syriac Christianity to India, not only brought their religion but also their genes!

(1) It is known that the Saphor Iso migration brought immigrants who had no problem mixiing with Indians — indeed we know more about the Saphor Iso immigration than any purported “Southist” immigration. There are families to this day in Kallada/Kollam (Thulassery Mannapurath, Muthalaly, etc) claiming to be descendants of those migrants — and these descendents, who have proof, intermarry with Indians, and have done so for generations. They don’t inbreed like the Southists.

(2) A Catholicos of Babylon wrote letters authorizing the marriage of Persians and Indians. So the phenomena must have been a significant one.

(3) Our semitic genetic markers — J2 in the Northists.

(4) More recent examples such as the family Tholanikunnel (mentioned on NSC), the family of Mar Andrews (the ancestral uncle of St Gregorios), the family of Mor Yuhakkim Coorilos, etc.

So, for the Southists to claim they brought Syriac Christianity to the rest of us — on the basis of no information whatsoever — is highly wrong. Their distortion of history must be countered with facts.

Who do you think these marthomite tirumenis look like? or search for more tirumenis and what are these features tell. andthey became tirumenis from ordinary marthomite families. i think it obvious that these identities on many individiuals does not matter which denominations is. It not happening only in knanaya…seems need to learn more. http://www.qatarmarthoma.org/images/thirumeni.jpg

Many of the Knanaya who makes these claims are aware that there are not any historical documents to prove those. Some of these are made up to project a community build up and make the people feel special. There have been wicked people in the Knanaya and continue to exist. Indeed every group and every community that has ever existed has them.

All people with a reasonable level of intelligence and a sense of truth and those who have done a modicum of research into these events and history, come to the above said conclusion.

In an ethical world any falsifying the facts of a church history is in dereliction of their duty to the general public and to themselves as human beings and as people of the church of god. It is therefore tantamount to fraud. Therefore those involved should stop the misrepresentation and deliberate fraudulent distortion of the facts.

Dear All

I wanted to add what Scholars such as J S Assemani, S Giamil, Lequien, Mingana writes about the historicity of Thomas of Cana mission in AD 345. I could not find these in the thesis Eso Pothen ( I did not spend much time translating that) contributed some time back. In the thesis, i could find the observations of Gouvea, Bishop Francis Roz, a Jacobite document of 1770 (Leyden text ) etc as mentioned.

J S Assemani, who was aware of the stories mentioned by Gouvea as heard from Malabar, make reference to the arrival in India of Bishop Thomas Cana, about AD 825. He believes that his two wives were the two cities of Cranganore and Angamale where he had jurisdiction.

S Giamil, while studying the Leyden text and Assemanis explanations logically concluded that there were two missions: first came the merchant, Thomas of Jerusalem, accompanied by Joseph, the anonymous Metropolitan of Edessa: then arrived and in AD 800 Bishop Thomas Cana.

Lequien also writes in similar lines that, Bishop Thomas of Cana is the monk whom Patriarch Timothy I selected and ordained as Bishop referring to historical documents about a Bishop named Thomas who was send to India in the same century.
According to A Mingana, even if some historical background for the mission attributed to AD 345, it must be distinguished from the coming of Thomas of Cana.

A Mingana further mentions that there was no Bishop named Jospeh in Edessa.

But we know how different the stories are written in Wikipedia and at other places about Knanaya history. We hear of vision of Catholics of East about sending Thomas of Cana in AD 345 in our local Eighteenth century documents. It appears that who ever has written those stories in Eighteenth century did not care to check the original sources.

A Mingana writes, “ The scene of the merchant Thomas is placed in AD 345 according to Malabar tradition. In this year the Catholics of East was Barba- Shemin, the nephew of the great Simon bar Sabba ( Sources- Bedjan, Assemani, Sozomen etc) and was in prison from 345 to 346 and he suffered martyrdom. After him the See was vacant for twenty years. Before the time Catholics of East was Shahdost and he was martyred in 342 and the See was vacant for two years ( Source- Amr, Mari,Bedjan etc)” A Mingana very clearly mentions that, in their short time of office, during the persecution of Saphor, not one of the above Catholics whose time was mostly spend in prison could have possibly attended to the business of a merchant Thomas of Jerusalem. The whole story is absolutely unhistorical.

A Mingana further says “ I believe that this very late Malabar Syrian tradition might have made a stupid chronological mistake of about four centuries and a half : but then this historical Thomas was a simple merchant and not a bishop, while the possibly historical Thomas Cana was a bishop. No one can fathom the depth of stupidity to which a late and worthless tradition may lead a critic”

I have not read anything so far which indicates these scholars: A Mingana, J S Assemani, S Giamil, Lequien were wrong

Anyways, what is mentioned in Wikipedia about Knanaya history is just “JUNK”.

It’s not just wikipedia of course.

Recently, as some one pointed out earlier, there was a website of a SMC Knanaya diocese or priest in which he claimed that the archdeaconate of old was split in two (Nasrani and Southist). Absolute BS, of course. I think the encouragement that the Pope and Patriarch have given these historical frauds (i.e., the writers of this fiction, not individual Southists themselves) is a shame.

This is curious too. I can understand the Patriarch of Antioch’s support for the “Knanaya” — the Patriarch and his office doesn’t have the means or the interest in conducting proper research into Malabar (the days of scholars like Patriarch Barsoum are long gone it seems). However it is still indefensible — lack of means does not justify lack of rigor (or laziness). At the very least the Patriarch ought to indicate the lack of records justifying the “Knayaya” historical claims — it should not endorse the fiction. And it should severely reprimand fraudulent pseudo-history writing by bishops — especially when such propaganda is anti-Christian (endogamy is not a Christian doctrine).

But why Rome? Rome has copious scholars (and not just any kind of scholars — it has *good* scholars. As obnoxious as I find some of their biased commentary, I can’t deny that they have excellent standards of diligence and rigor when presenting facts, and often clearly separate facts from commentary), and plenty of resources. Despite the large SMC population, Rome has had no problem commenting on the lack of evidence concerning Thomas’ arrival in India (I actually agree with this; there is no hard evidence, and there is nothing wrong with calling it as it is). But why doesn’t it exhibit a similar degree of rigor concerning the Southists? This is very disappointing. And, like I said, boggles the mind.

Too bad that thesis dug up by Eso Pothen was in German … Google translate helps though.

Re Southists and Northists in SMC,

As the Vicar General of Changanacherry, Nidheerikal Mani Kathanaar had plans to abolish the Northist- Southist caste distinguish ion among the Pazhayacoor by appointing Southists priests in Northist churches and vice versa to promote intermarriages and to abolish endogamy. Mani Kathanaar wrote “I was the first person to advocate the abolition of the caste distinction between the Northists and the Southists; after consulting with the late Fr. Joseph Tharayil, the Southist councillor to Bishop Lavinge, and some other chief members of the Southist community, we resolved to get a written consent of the influential men of both the parties, to appoint some Southist priests to Northist parishes and vice versa as vicars and through their exhortation and influence to get consent of intermarriage between the two sects, which would gradually lessen and finally abolish the long existing distinction without any violent measure. But the idea was abandoned on account of the pre mature death of Fr Joseph Tharayil and my removal from vicar general ship”.
(Ref. Father Nidheeri, A history of his time, Abraham M Nidheeri)

I think we need such a leader now. If Mani Kathanaar had support for this in 1800s, I think more people will support such a move in this era of information and communication, where people can understand the difference between a Christian church and an ethnic group.

The European Bishops always wanted to create two rival groups in Pazhayacoor by supporting the Southists. Divide and rule policy. They convinced the Southists that they might not get justice under Northist Bishops and hence the Southists were always loyal to the foreign Bishops where as the Northists were rebellions and sent lots of petitions to Rome against the foreign Bishops and demanded indigenous Bishops.

Rome was mis represented the facts in Malabar by the European Bishops for their benefits. The European Bishops wanted to delay Malabar Syrian Catholics becoming Bishops for their community and represented Rome that the indigenous priests are not mature enough to become Bishops, they are not well trained in Catholic doctrines and if they become Bishops, they might join the schismatics- Puthencoor- as both the communities are so emotionally related. (At that time, none of the priests were trained in Rome and hence the community sent Mar Kurialacherry to Rome to groom as a Catholic Bishop.)

When Charles Lavigne was the Bishop of Changanacherry, Nidheerickal Mani Kathanaar was the vicar general. Later, Lavigne appointed Mar Makil as the second vicar general for Southists only. This was just to widen the rift between the two communities. Later, Lavigne preferred Mar Makil as a Bishop sidelining Mani Kathanaar. Mar Makil as the Vicar General, had no authority over the Northists as he was the VG for Southists only. But now, Mar Makil became a Bishop over Southists and Northists which caused unrest among the majority Northists which prompted Rome to create a Southist diocese and to appoint a Northist as the Bishop for Northists- Mar Thomas Kurialacherry. It may be seen as supporting the Southist legends but actually was an effort of damage control.

I have been observing that there have been no new comments for some time. What happened?

My thoughts
Well I m think there can be chance St Thomas Christians. but I think he converted either Israelites or Jews and some others.
It say in many church history and many book clearly says that what lead St Thomas to Malabar of his own people and lot of books and church history supports the first converts were Jews or Israelites
There is an article of lost Aramaic bible, act of St Thomas, also Jewish copper plate, bene Israelites in Mumbai claim to be in India since Bcs
May be some Vedic Brahmin may be converted . Compare to knas they are isolated and completely west Asians. but not namboothris they meant . and these information’s might our forefathers heard and claim. may be early forefathers hid the truth ..later some forefather misunderstood as namboothris converted. But it 100%true that middle eastern migrations and joined there
Perhaps there is Mar Thoma Christians of Jews Israelites and some Vedic Brahmins . but Indian contest everyone highlight Brahmin story. or even Jewish adopted Brahmin title and that is their nature I think.
But still knanaya Thommen northist , Mar sabor iso and Mar proth immigrants , Nestorians Chaldeans are among the crowd, and there is noted Armenian immigrants. even if they are not solid Jewish still when lot of Jews converted to Christians they left Jews land and lived in Syrian Lebanon , Jewish Christian Egypt, Assyrian Babylon, Armenia now migrated to Malabar because those kings in kerala welcomed Jews and other and gave em rights
Well there is some family have that Brahmins but cannot rule out Brahmins as a whole community. why Brahmins have to mix with Dravidian. but we can understand enculturation of west Asian. because they want to indianized because they scare persecution by some others.
If I claming to be a Brahmin in our Christian community means my convert forefather must be a Brahmin and his wife his kids and that those wife and up to me have to be a Brahmin till 2009 to claim to be a Brahmin and that is just a claim and only few families has that origin.
I read a book says there is Armenians immigrations. just recently I read that there was a Armenian man and we was a alcoholic and he lived and once he got an accident and sink and died in a river think kalada river something. chaldans are meant to be kaldayakar mean from Babylon and it noted as immigrants.
Every family has the book and written as Brahmin converted and how is that sounds? while sort of Jewish or middle astern look are there. and people see these kind of white skin and say it from Brahmins…even it say some W Asian pretend as Brahmins the time Brahmin was popular …before they mix or intermarried Persian was also white skinned and claim as Brahmins but some stories like that.
Like me and Jackson agreed some families has that origin of Brahmins converted but now lot of Christians claim Brahmins convert saying St Thomas walk around and show miracles and tons of Brahmin converted to Christian which is not logics and those families still Middle eastern wife reached and can be mixed and a Semitic or W Asian nature is spreaded out unless there is another huge chunk of Indian convert joined our Syrian Christian community
So actually if we really look knanaya but I don’t know kanas have a formula to know each other but I see their west Asian features so far in both are almost same but we re bit fluid community and still some converts joined us and their generation mixed and intermarried among us and these middle astern look also distributed I think.
But knas has border but we don’t but still there is presence of Brahmins there and may are claim to Brahmins just they want like that. while knas claim we are Jewish or from Syria and u guys are just flat Brahmin converts and these are the reason behind it and still both community pretty much the same
In a way we cannot reject we have some Brahmins can be there. but not a lot as people just throwing stones on us. but the reality we all are still influence to west Asian land that blood are among us.
If we go by y-dna paternal dna it will be confusing I think. Even knas didn’t get impressive Semitic dna . but we cannot reject they are not influence to west Asian land maternally or paternally even if it does show that they have south Indian which is recently it proofs . Same on us too. that is why if we look there can be some convert dna on y -side but at least mtdna side influence of west Asians mixed in many families and that nature all over the nasrani Christian community I think
yes regarding chaledean or kaldhayakar immigration is a noted one and East Syrian rite and us like west Syrian rites.
And it noted history it says in the book and middle Eastern Nestorian are among the crowd and experts says like in my account there is Alexander deep in these kind of knowledge many mid-eastern immigration in different times happened and mixed with us except knanaya ..even expert say there is not such community long time only it pop up recently….So these are the point i just want to write

That was a very informative posting (#16847) from Thomas Anthony. Thank you. It accorded me a clearer perspective on the politics of it all – which I suspected all along – but could not put a finger on it, until now.

RP:

You “think”, eh? A lot of people have “thoughts” about what our origins are — that doesn’t necessarily mean much.

Also, your reliance on various stories and Church “histories” from Kerala is dangerous if you actually want to learn facts. In Kerala, there seems to be a trend: one idiot writes something, and then a hundred idiots cite the first one. All of a sudden one lie, one distortion, one figment of one fool’s imagination … becomes a “fact” cited by everybody. This is how propaganda works; it is *not* how history or science — or any scholarly pursuit — works.

Some points from your post:
1. “It say in many church history and many book clearly says that what lead St Thomas to Malabar of his
own people and lot of books and church history supports the first converts were Jews or Israelites.”

First, no one even knows if Thomas came to India. So anyone who claims to know “why” Thomas came to India, is spouting fiction. Church history books say a lot of things … most are uselessly propagandistic partisan political-biased polemics.

2. “There is an article of lost Aramaic bible, act of St Thomas, also Jewish copper plate, bene Israelites in Mumbai claim to be in India since Bcs”

The article on the lost Aramaic Bible was written by some monkey from an Indian newspaper with no knowledge of facts; a non-Nasrani, I believe, who likely just talked to some Orthodox priest who lay some big fat hyperbolic story. The Buchanan Bible, as it’s called, is, according to scholars, from the 12th century or so, and was likely brought to Kerala by the West Syriac fathers who came to help the Puthenkoor in the 17th and 18th centuries. It is not from the Jews, since it is a Bible, with a New Testament.

Sure, there may have been Jews in Kerala from antiquity. And without a doubt they may have intermarried with the Nasranis. But the Nasranis were not a Jewish community — they seemed to be a very absorptive community of Christians, by all indications. Nothing indicates Jewish Christianity’s existence in Kerala. That doesn’t mean it never existed in Kerala — it just means that *WE DO NOT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE* concerning the truth of that hypothesis. Anyone claiming definitive knowledge on the Jewish Christianity issue is spouting myths.

On the other hand we have plenty of evidence to support our Church of the East connection from about the 5th century. And the CoE, like the Jacobites, and the Chalcedonians, were definitely not Jewish. There was bad blood between the Christians and the Jews in the Middle East by that point due to various massacres which both sides perpetrated on each other. Some evangelicals and Protestants like to make a connection between Judaism and Syriac Christianity — that is often due to their ignorance in confusing *Semitic* and *oriental* characteristics for Jewish ones.

3. “I read a book says there is Armenians immigrations. just recently I read that there was a Armenian man and we was a alcoholic and he lived and once he got an accident and sink and died in a river think kalada river something.”

The term “Armenian” you’ve read is most likely a corruption of Aramean (Assyrians, basically). Although there were bonafide Armenians that migrated to various parts of India, I don’t think many of them were connected to the Nasranis. (Though, they also patronized Mylapore).

The person you’re talking about is Mar Andrews of Kallada. I’d be careful about mindlessly reciting what you’ve read. Some of us (Orthodox) hold Mar Andrews to be a saintly man who was prescribed local alcohol to deal with various intestinal problems he had when in Kerala. He is the great-…-great Uncle of Mar Gregorios of Parumala, incidentally. (The alcoholic insult is an element of local propaganda; it seems that in Kerala, consumption of alcohol is viewed negatively. Perhaps that’s due to the Malayali inability to drink moderately? In the Middle Eastern Churches, alcohol — wine and beer — is an important part of functions and celebrations. There is no negative stigma attached to alcohol consumption.)

ok what john mathew saying is right. Actually if we are thinking there is no proof of anything for sure. but we sure believe that st thomas came to india. we dont have proof but we cannot reject it 100%. many experts think that someone brought the gospel at that first century. If knanayas are claiming knanaya thomen decednts and they claiming there are orginal without any mix till 2009 .then we cannot believe either. and knanaya thommen came in ad 300 and it not that far away to st thomas time than what we are now. that does not mean that it is all the way a made up story. Regarding the jewish facts john mathew is right since i m representing a normal guy as i observed and what it probably think it happened see some one going to come up with the same ideas and thing seem kinda going smooth.
what i observed as in the begining basically what stuck in my mind was south indian are dravidian but we have sort of a middleastern features or somekinda white features other than being dravidian. Then there were it all started out and some of those people are on these idea. and that is what we all curious to discuss and mr johm mathew knows all that. Even i ment to say jewish on us or semitc on us even semitc only means the decendents of shem. instead what i m trying to prove the immigrants of west asian land and i feeling like that. i alway include knanaya because they are the one stil exixt in our community close live in the faith of west asian land and apostile st thomas and many of em where my neighbour in my home town. And hearing stories from them then i got the interest to know who are nasranis and syrian chrisitans of india.

In addition to that mr johm mathew and i withnessed many comment that praising jewish presence, dna by many known people like ambrakayil, gerorge mathew and many others and they got all their comments very much sucess and i dont have to explain much to you.

Hi there,

I have been looking for what little info on the L3 hg for a while and chanced upon this discussion.
I recently got myself tested as L3* on 23andme.com. I’m a Punjabi Jatt , as far as i know most Punjabi Jatts are r1a1. L3 is very rarely found in india , as far as i know 2 rajputs and a pallan tribal group were found to have it ( from research papers). But we cannot take that to mean that it is south indian , the same way r1a1 is found in large amounts in the kallar tribals. So far the highest concentration is in North West Pakistan and interestingly the kalash populations have it in as high as 26% of their group , they also have a private subclade l3a which is only so far found in them. As the ftdna results for the l3 shows , there may have been a division of the l3 into 2 new subclades. As i was snp tested i do not know which i belong , but it is very likely i cluster to the pakistani/pashtun samples as our origins are afghan/ central asia.

L3 is also found in small amounts all over the mideast/turkey as well, so it wouldn’t be wise to assume the l3 that you guys have is south indian in origin as it is very rare there.

I am getting ftdna test done so that we can establish some proper subclades for l3 as it is very lacking and no researcher has so far written anything on it so far.

Anyone thing you guys should do is to do a autosomal test , as paternal y-d hg doesn’t really mean much , you could have had a l3 guy marry in 10 generations ago. 23andme does such a test and you can compare your simlarity to other persons of jewish descent etc. I find myself clustering closer to turks/pakis/iranians than to indians for example.

Good luck!

what we hear all are fake do not believe…now these time which is the time of cheating …lot of em we hear are fake….there was lot of jews converted and they mix with dravidians and our local and living the way they wanted and that is the truth and nobody cannot trace em …they are living in christ and look for the second comming of christ . jew are wise people and god chosen people and those wise and intellegent people know god and the world and they know it through profects . and they are not silly to claim jewish and get some recoginision from the rest of the world…and they are more than that . jews people who got converted and mixed never going to claim as jewish because they can think well and they do not want to be in trouble…other wise they could have calim earlier and those wise jews know there is no benifit to claim like that and they know the gentile world and what they going to do about it….people who claim and said they are jews went back to israel …no jews is in a unsafe mannner with gentiles and say they are jewish and that is not going to happened. if kananya or any community i challenge if they ever have the real blood of jewish never claim for it . other than that what they doing is seems fake because their culture and behavious itselfs prove like that.

Hello John

Sorry for such a late reply. Thekkumbagar history is one of creative writing at its zenith.

When you try to talk history with Southists, they are so gung-ho about the pure blood, Syrian, Jewish tradition etc and the moment we start talking by quoting evidence that the ‘knanaya’ name was started in 1992, all their smugness vanishes and they refuse to talk any further.

This is the modus operandi. To an ignorant in history, they will shout from the roof tops about their ancestry, purity and what not. But if you have a basic idea , they wont talk at all.

No chauvinist Southist will respond but he will create article in Wikipedia about their ‘inbreeding’ and about their pure DNA. ( Of course, he knows his DNA is Indian ).

One generation earlier, the least educated people were the Southists. It was generally difficult to find marriage alliance for the educated women of the Southists community. There were many inter marriages in 1970’s and 1980’s. Sensing the challenge, these Scientists came up with the Jewish story in early 1990’s.

These people don’t have any documents to prove that they even existed in sixteenth century but they don’t see this as a hindrance for their assertions like they brought bible, they brought liturgy etc

They claim that the Kottayam diocese was created because of their purity was accepted by the Catholic Church. These people don’t realize that they can’t destroy all the records of their 1910 diocese which was created because of the infighting amongst the clergy.

In spite of documents, which clearly states the reason for the creation of Kottayam diocese as infighting; the southists still maintains the rationale behind this as acceptance of ‘purity’ by the Catholic church. I am digging more on what M.T Antony wrote on this subject and may be he can share more..

Hello Everybody,

I hope that at least this time a Southist will take me up on this.

I wanted to share with you all a ‘theory!!’ about the origin of Southists.

These people don’t even have any relationship with Thomas of Cana. They are the Vellala converts to Christianity who escaped the persecution from Kaveripattanam.

There is an evidence for this. A palm leaf manuscript titled “Keralattil Marga Valiute Avastha” preserved till date by the Syrian Christian family of Karuthedathu in Mavelikara has mentioned the migration of Vella converts from Kaveripattanam in fourth century.

According to this in AD 339, the Vellala converts to Christianity in Kaveripattanam were persecuted by the King and because of this 72 families embarked on a boat or vessel and came to Korakkeni, where there were already Christians.

They came in a boat, there were 72 families and reached somewhere already Christians are there.

Check out the similarity of events in the oral traditions…..that there were 72 families…they came in 4th centuary….they came in a boat….they belonged to one race.

So quoting from Kezhakken post no. 15158,

“To me, it looks like our(Syrian Christian) L3 is Tamil/Dravidian. We need not go till Afghanistan and cross over to Iran. 50% or more of the Southist results known so far are L3. The story can now be retold as someone traveling from Tamil Nadu – in a boat of course – and settling in Kerala”

So Kezhakken hit the nail right on the head…

Any Southists up for a discussion !!

RE: Southists

Okay, I’m posing a hypothesis here in the hopes that people will assail it and through that process we’ll get some actual information. (Easo: I read your theory, however, I am reluctant to believe anything that invokes dates earlier than the 10th century. I don’t believe that a palm leave record will last from the 4th up to now, and hence can not on the surface accept the theory you proposed. However, if you have some further information that bolsters the claim, I would like to hear about it.)

Here’s my hypothesis:
a) we know that Kodungallur (Cranganore) had both Black Jews and Christians
b) we know that the Black Jews suffered some sort of schism in the 13/14th century
c) both communities used to be relatively prosperous due to trading, etc.
d) that prosperity started to decline with the rise of Arab/Muslim power over the seas
e) due to (b) and (d) the prosperity of the Black Jews began to decline
f) with rising Muslim power in the North of Kerala, there may also have been persecution of Jews
g) due to (f) and perhaps due to Nestorian missionary activity, Jews may have converted to Syriac Christianity …
h) … with the stipulation that they would maintain their *own* ethnic group, intermarrying only with other Jewish converts (i.e., endogamy)
i) with the conversion, their Jewish history slowly morphed into a Christianized one: hence “Joseph Rabban” (the grantee of the Jewish copper cheppad) became “Mar Joseph” the Syriac Christian bishop.

Some problems that I see:
1) how did the Southists get possession of a Pahlavi Cross? Is the Pahlavi Cross that the Southists own one of the older crosses, or a replica?
2) How did Thomas of Cana figure in? The Northists used to claim descent from Thomas of Cana — why would the Southists also claim descent from a Northist ancestor? Perhaps the Thomas of Cana story was an important facet of the Kerala Syriac Christian community (since, Catholic observers in the 13th century and earlier saw a highly corrupt kind of Christianity — a sort of Thomas worship)? So when the Jews converted, they also appropriated the Thomas of Cana story to give them legitimacy?

Ok, I know this is only a hypothesis, but it is one that fits the facts that I’ve discovered. I’m not claiming that this is the truth, but I would like to solicit comments from other knowledgeable people out there so I can modify and/or change the theory.

There are too many exaggerated theories concerning the Southists. The Southists claim one thing, and then the Northists claim the inverse — none of these claims are helpful, so I’ve presented a neutral claim which occurs post-10th century.

Jackson:

I have two scientific papers on Cochin Jews, “Genetic Studies on Cochin Jews in Israel” by Cohen et al., from 1980.

Perhaps you could read them and offer a preliminary opinion on whether there is any connection between the Southist results on FTDNA and this. Email me (or NSC admin) and I’ll send them to you, if you like.

i think southist also have west asian features, and as they claim they dont have any impressive dna. we cannot make our theory to them. but it the matter that what ever southist holding that is the samething northist holding. but southist seems to ignore others which something commentable to their orgins. may be southist collected the features but not the ydna that the northist holding. which i think southist were so careful about in marriages and start collecting the features and start making the claims. northist are the orginals and seems to mix with indian bit more than southist. i think there was some nasranis, or westasians or syrians came to kerala and there were so innocent and sincere to christianity . but there was some low caste people start to grab these individuals and collecting those features in their community to get rid of low cast nature and start claim that they are royal blood. if we look at these innocent syrians features are in all group but in northist group it did not happened that syrians mixed in it then it mixed further or didnot care to stick together as syrians. i think these phenomean can be seen. innocent syrians or westasian had no intention for endogamy. but they love kerala and joined with those few chrisitians in our small kerala. probably velluthedanmar or nair or dobby probably behind in these dramatic community. well its an idea tat i feel on them

Dear Easo Pothen

First of all, thanks for the link about the thesis. As I understood from translation, the author of the thesis mostly relied on “Symposium on Knanites”. Almost all of the early Portuguese accounts he mentions in brief has been published in full by some other authors. I have used the English translation of these in the article. As mentioned in the thesis, it is certainly true that with all the new Scientist theories, the real history of Southists will be lost.

I also felt that there was no mention about the opinions of major Orientalist like Assemani in the history of Southist in thesis.

On the theory which you proposed about the origin of Southists- I have only read brief about the palm leaf manuscript “Keralattil Marga Valiute Avastha”. What I have read is akin to what you have mentioned. I think it was T K Joseph who brought this to the limelight. I have not read his article in Kerala Society Papers, which discuss about this. So my response is not very accurate and this is based on some references I read from the papers of Dr. K S Mathew etc about this.

There is a similarity in the events associated with Southists history. I think the author of the manuscript “Keralattil Marga Valiute Avastha” uses Christian era which indicates that the manuscript is not very old. I am not sure how old is this ! Well, the Leyden text which gives the vision of Catholicos and voyage of Thomas of Cana is also written in eighteenth century. This is not a point, as there is not much antiquity to the generally used documents in Southist history.

This document “Keralattil Marga Valiute Avastha” has been used generally to identify the history of the local Christian merchant guild called Manigramam. Manigramam was an association of merchants working at various ports such as Quilon ( Copper plate has reference about them), Kodungalloor ( Irvi Kortan plate has reference), Kaveripattanam, Tittadatanapuram etc. I don’t know if Manigramam is stated in this document or it is an observation put forward.

Do you have more information about this manuscript?

Does anyone have an opinion on my connection of “Mar Joseph of Edessa” (from the common Southist story) with Rabban Joseph of the Black Jews?

Does anyone know when the Mar Joseph story started?

I don’t think the Southist story is completely explained by claiming they are converts from a local Indian group — the supposed presence of unique songs and marriage practices amongst them seems to contradict this theory. I also don’t believe in the Mar Joseph/Thomas of Cana story — Thomas of Cana was also claimed as a Northist ancestor, and there’s no evidence of a Mar Joseph. Plus the endogamic practices of the Southists contradict Syriac Christian (West or East) origins — Christians are not endogamous, since the policy seems to conflict with Christian universalism.

However, if they are converts from a group of Black Jews — *that* might just be possible…, and it would explain a lot of things.

Of course, it still doesn’t explain how the Southists got possession of Pahlavi Crosses…

Dear John

I don’t have a definite opinion about the origin of Southist. My gut feeling is that, the details about the division and origin should be there in some documents in the archives in Portugal, Spain or with Jesuits. I don’t buy the Southist legends, as we all know it has been changing continuously through out the decades. That is, I don’t even see any constant tradition among them. The most recent is the Jewish Christian stories. I wont be be surprised if it has been proved later that the division we see today as Northist- Southist started based on some silly reason.

On the hypothesis you put forward, there are few points worth pursuing in my opinion.

1. I see the mentioning of “Joseph Rabban (the grantee of the Jewish copper cheppad) became “Mar Joseph” the Syriac Christian bishop” as interesting; as we don’t have any information about the Mar Joseph mentioned in Southist history other than traditions. (?) Kuravilanagdu church has some traditions associated with Mar Joseph from Edessa but again no documents as far us I know. I will confirm from when onwards Mar Joseph came in Southist traditions.

2. It could be that the Copper Plates Southist claim as given to them by the Cheraman Peruaml ( 9th century) may be the original Jewish copper plates (?).The Portuguese writing mentions about the Thomas of Cana plates ( also called as Mar Jacob plates). Another probability is that the original Thomas of Cana or Mar Jacob Plates, can be some deed Bishop Thomas of Cana got for the Church in Cranganore in 9th century from the King Cheraman Perumal. The Portuguese writings indicate that the language used was also Arabic, which support this. Since it doesn’t exist, cant say more.

3. I don’t know what exactly happened Meshuhararim Jews ( mixed origin). Did the Meshuhararim join Christianity after the attack by Zamorin and Muslims in Cranganore in 1524 (?).

The problems adding to what you mentioned to your hypothesis,

1. No such information is provided in any Portuguese earlier accounts or reference where the division is mentioned and other missionary accounts. ( as far us I know)

2. Jews also doesn’t have any tradition that many of them got converted to Christianity. ( Are there any ?)

3. The Southists in reality doesn’t have any tradition which says that they were Jews. The customs they have are similar to Northist like Pulakuli, with some difference. On a lighter vein, they have ‘the decorating of hands of the bride with henna and Oppana..does that make them muslim converts? I am trying to get some more customs from southist. My understating now is that only in 1992, they started the claim of Jewish Christians. (?)

4. No reference about this in Syond of Diamper decrees. This is keeping in the mind that, there was an organized effort in Syond of Diamper ( 1599) even to bring back those Christians who have reverted to some form of Hinduism. ( Thodamala etc)

Until some 1524, it is said that Jews, Christians, Nairs etc lived in Cranganore.

The Raja of Cranganore had quarrels with the Samorin of Calicut. King of Cranganore was a vassal of Samorin of Calicut and seeing that King of Crnaganore was secretly allying with King of Cochin, the Samorin of Calicut attacked Crnaganore sometime in 1524. In this attack, many houses and churches of Christians were burnt down. Some time earlier the Christians who had monopoly of Pepper cultivation had removed Muslims from middlemen role by the actions taken by Mar Jacob. The Muslims were revengeful and this would have also contributed to the destruction. The Church in the name of Apostle at Cranganore was also burnt. It is said that when Muslims turned against Christians, Nairs helped the Christians.

Jews also suffered in the attack. Regarding the Black Jews at Cranganore, there was a division Meyuhasim ( pure lineage) and Meshuhararim ( mixed origin). It is said that this infighting was also a major reason which lead the destruction of their settlements in Cranganore in 1524, and eventual movement towards Cochin and other areas.

It is said that among the Meyuhasim, there was a quarrel between the two descendents of Joseph Rabban regarding succession. This split them in to two groups. Both these groups sought the help of Zamorin to put down other. Meshuhararim advised Zamorin to pretend to help both and cheat them. The Zamorin using this opportunity with the help of Muslims attacked Cranganore and destroyed both the settlements of Meyuhasim and Meshuhararim. Then the Paradesi Jews became prominent. They even started claiming the Copper Plates as their own. I don’t know what exactly happened to the Meshuhararim. (?)

Alphy, some time back mentioned that Southist might have copied some of these stories from Cochin Jews.

In Bishop Roz Report of 1604, he mentions that only in 1603, there were quarrels at Udiamper ( Udaymperoor), and Candanate. Erection of separate churches for Southist only started from there (?). He also says in 1604, The Christians of St. Thomas descending from Thomas of Cana are few. They are in Udiamper ( Udaymperoor) and in the big church of Carturte ( Kaduthuruthy) and the big Church of Cotete ( Kottayam) and in Turigure. ( Torure ?) etc.

In 1578, there were about Sixty Churches for Saint Thomas Christians. There are no reports which mention anything about any of the churches belonging to any separate group. The number of Churches increased during the course of time, and by the year 1644 there were about 94 of them. (?) From the Roz report it appeared to me that only from 1603, they started having their own Church.(?)

I am not sure from when onwards they came to be known as Ancharappallikkar (?). It seems that gradually they had five churches of their own at Diamper, Kaduthuruthy, Kottayam, Chunkom and Kallissery. May be studying the history of these Churches would give more information (?).

Thanks Admin for your detailed response.

I was under the impression that underneath the layers of myths, there were some (or at least one) “different” traditions involved (e.g., something about different songs they sing, which I believe I learned from Joseph Palackal’s writing on the ethnomusicography of the Nasranis — his CD, which M. Thomas Antony reviews — has a sample song, I think).

Do you have any ideas about which archives in Portugal or Spain might contain the records regarding our community? I ask just in case I or any other Nasrani makes it to one of those countries one day — we can try to take a deeper look for these records.

John Mathew,

Please could u send the papers to my email address… mjjackson_12@yahoo(dot)co(dot)in, since I do not have your id. Will read them and do the needful. Thanks.

Jackson

Dear Easo,

Regarding the creation of the southist diocese of Kottayam in SMC.

I have already mentioned that the majority northists were unhappy with the appointment of Mar Makil, a southist as the first native bishop of the Vicariate of Kottayam at Changanacherry. This was because,

1 Mar Makil was involved in sending letters to Rome against appointment of native bishops.

2 Mar Makil was close to Charles Lavigne, who was not liked by the Catholic Syrians. He always tried to sideline Nidheerickal Mani Kathanaar, who was the strong leader of the Catholic Syrians at that time from north to south regions.

3 Makil was the secretary to Mar Marsaline, a Portuguese Archbishop of Verapoly.

4 Centuries old superiority of northists over sudists made this appointment an insult to the superior northists who are the majority.

5. Mar Makil was the first person who used the term “Syro Malabar” instead of “Syro Chaldean” for Pazhayacoor against their wish, probably for the interest of the European Bishops or to please them.Later, Rome also used the term “Syro Malabar”. The whole community was against this and sent several letters etc to Rome against it to reinstate the term “Syro Chaldean”

This led wide spread public unrest against Mar Makil. Several letters were sent to Rome and at last, the then three native bishops of the catholic Syrians jointly sent a report to Rome to create a solution to this divide in Changanacherry. As Mar Makil was consecrated as a Bishop already, the only option was to create a sudist diocese for him and consecrate a northist as bishop of Changanacherry. Thus, the Vicariate of Kottayam at Changanacherry was divided into the diocese of Chaganacherry and a new diocese at Kottayam.

The real emotion at that time period can be seen in this letter sent by Northists to Pope Pius X in 1908-

“In support of our complaints from a social point of view, we beg to call your Holiness’ kind attention to the past history of the church in Malabar. The sudists, too low and too insignificant to be counted in the general community, were not allowed to be ordained priests; and though there were native bishops even from the time of the apostle, St Thomas, not one of them has been a sudist. The consecration of Mar Makil, a sudist is the first instance of the violation of our admitted superiority and privilege for centuries. Although later on, the sudists were allowed to be ordained as priests through the exertions of Latin bishops, there is no instance of a sudist priest governing even a northist parish. We are therefore extremely sorry that the Vatican with all its proverbial respect for the precedents would think it fit not only to deprive us of or time honoured superiority and privilege but also to subject us to the rule of a sudist bishop-which is indeed a great national insult. Our only consolation when we think of all this is , that Rome has been kept in the dark as to the true state of affairs, and that she will soon rectify this unhappy error.”

Ref. Changanacherry athiroopatha innale, innu, (1998), Published by the Arch diocese of Changanacherry)

From this letter, it seems that southists were not allowed to become priests in the past. Has anybody got any more information about this?

( I personally do not support any ideas comparing people superior or inferior)

I don’t think northist/southist is superior/inferior. From the practices of the southists(endogamy) they would like to keep themselves different. Whats thier genetic study suggests? All are of same group?
Its better to rely on genetic studies than archaelogica/historical studies in this case.

M Thomas Antony,

Your quote said it all! Whenever I look around I see southist are more similar in appearence to natives than Nasranies, make sense now.

The confidence in Southist in propogating lies without any guilt (an example of their fearlessness to God) had resulted in Abhaya case. Clearly the accused are atheist: Wolf in sheep’s skin.

Hi Admin & John,
Thanks. “According to this in AD 339, the Vellala converts to Christianity in Kaveripattanam were persecuted by the King and because of this 72 families embarked on a boat or vessel and came to Korakkeni, where there were already Christians.” This is what is written in the manuscript. The story is so similar to the Knanaya myth and their DNA tests prove it too. That was the reason for my theory.

Thanks Thomas.
A fact from Knanaya appeared on Wikipedia’s Main Page in the Did you know? column on 6 March 2005. The text of the entry was as follows:
• “…that the Nasrani Menorah is the symbol of the Knanaya community in South India, acknowledged as Christian Jews by the Vatican? “
Did Vatican acknowledge Knanayas as Jewish Christians?

What exactly did the Vatican acknowledge with the creation of a separate Southist diocese? Does anyone have an excerpt to share? I doubt there would have been any reference to “”Christian Jews” since “Jewish Christianity” is regarded as heterodox by the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Does the Vatican and/or the people responsible for the East Catholic Churches have anything to say about this “Jewish Christian” claim by the Southists?

Also, are the Southists responsible for this “Nasrani Menorah” misidentification? The Pahlavi inscription — undeniably Christian — and the common Christian style of that Cross (ref: the Georgian and Armenian crosses, the East Syriac and Wes Syriac crosses in the Middle East, Central Asia and China, and the Ravenna Cross in Italy detract from the “Menorah” claim. As does the fact that the same and/or similar design is used in Goa, Ceylon, other parts of Kerala where Southists have no tradition of existing.

While the common knowledge circulating amongst the public will be faulty and infected with these memes, at least there’s some small comfort that when more intelligent people consult the scholarly body of literature (that last main contributor of which is Gignoux, it seems) they’ll learn the more orthodox nature of our past.

When did the information given in “Weekipedia” started to be seen as authentic. Of course the “Persian” Cross looks “Eastern”. Kana is the port in Arabia or Yemen. These overblown stories of “Jewsihness” started only after one of the Knananites wrote up a fake histroy book in 1950. Then another Knanaanite lady translated it when she was in South Africa. Southern Kingdom of Judea? There is no end to perversion. Let me tell you. The one real reason the two groups were separate could be that Kana people could have been Arabic in origin and already existing Christians had Persian connection when they came in. If you guys really want to be Jewish why don’t you apply for immigration to Israel. They will be very happy.

I want to point out just one more thing. It is just not in Catholic Church that we have Northist and Southist, it is in Old jacobite church too. That is why there are a lot of Jacobite Syrian Christians belonging to Kna families. They actually marry from Kna Catholics. So there is this group even before Diamper Synod. It can be also said that this group tries to be endogamous. Even a century ago there were many stories behind it. Only within the last decade the “Jewishness” came out. This happened probably after a lots of Kna Mallus went to Canada and USA and started realizing the “greatness” of Jews. Why not have a Jewish ancestry if you can have it. Very exotic!!

The truth is that Thomas of Kana (which is a port on the southern part of Arabia) came from Edessa. There is no connection what soever to the Cana of Jesus/ Wine fame, which is a small town in Judea. Most probably we had Persian connection at that time. Please note that even Persian Christians are called Syrian Christians, becaus ethey use Aramaic / Syriac liturgy. Historically Persia is our nearest and by first century there were many Christians in the area. They used to send Bishops to Malabar and we even have their Khabars in kerala. Now, probably the Thomas of Kana set himself apart from local Christians and somehow, the division continued on based on stories that are not completely “Christian”. The term “Thekkumbhagar” is completely local in origin and there is no need to make new stories. THis came from the area wherever early settlers decided to stay or to go to once a separation occured.

Portugese were very good at making stories – including the Brahmin conversions. In AD 52, we can say for sure that there were not many Brahmins in Kerala. Actually there was more chance of finding Brahmins in Parthia or Persia at that time than in Kerala.Mr. John Mathew seems very desparate to establish some Jewish connection- even if it is as “Black Jew”. LOL

emmarcee:

You wrote: “The truth is that Thomas of Kana (which is a port on the southern part of Arabia) came from Edessa.”

Really? Where does this “fact” come from? As far as I’ve seen, this is a part of the standard mythology and is not more a “fact” than any of the “Jewish” myths. That is, there is no evidence concerning Thomas of Kana’s arrival, no less that he came from Edessa. Do you also believe he brought along a “Mor Joseph of Edessa” in accordance with the Patriarch of Antioch’s instruction? Fiction.

Also, your story (and it is a story, not history) ignores the *fact* that the Northists also claimed descent from Thomas of Cana. How do you explain that?

You wrote: “Kana is the port in Arabia or Yemen”.

Which one is it, you idiot?

You wrote: “They [the Persians and/or East Syriacs] used to send Bishops to Malabar and we even have their Khabars in kerala. ”

Where? There is only one Persian khabar I’m aware of, and that is Mar Abo’s in Thevelakkara — assuming that Mar Abo is the same as Mar Aphroth or Mar Sabor, both of whom are reported to have come around the 10th century. Fortunately, our ancestors possessed sufficient reverence for that cleric, as to bury him and mark his grave. But, apart from Mar Abo, there are no other *old* khabars in Kerala. Note: *Old* here means pre-16th century.

I don’t doubt that the Persians/East Syriacs sent bishops … however, I do doubt that we have any existing evidence.

You wrote: “.Mr. John Mathew seems very desparate to establish some Jewish connection- even if it is as “Black Jew”. LOL”

Are you as stupid as your writing suggests? I’m not even a Southist — and I’m certainly not a subscriber to the “Nasrani as Jew” BS that some morons are advancing on the basis of “faith” rather than “fact”.

My post in which I ask about the possibility of a Black Jewish origin for the Southists was referring to the fact that both the Southists and the Black Jews claim some connection with a Rabban Joseph (some myths present this as “Mor Joseph of Eddessa”). This seems to be a very curious common characteristic between the Black Jews and the Southists, that should be investigated since it is believed that many Jews did convert to Syriac Christianity over the last several centuries. Others here (who have also been critical of Southist myths) have also indicated that the Southists copper plates are possibly just a reference to the Jewish copper plates— which were given to the Black Jews but now reside with the White Jews (another curiosity … how did that occur?).

Again, I don’t believe the Southist myths — but they are a separate community and so I am interested in understanding how that separation occurred.

I want to see facts — and I want to ensure that myths are clearly labeled. What you’ve written is *as* contaminated with myth as what the Southists write. BS all around.

Finally, cite your source regarding “Kana is the port in Arabia or Yemen.” This is interesting to me … in all likelihood, the Black Jews of India are Himyaritic Jews (i.e., Jews from Yemen). Scholars investigating the Jews of Malabar have indicated similarities between the Malabar and Yemenite Jews.

But … I don’t have much faith that you’ll provide something tangible and/or credible … you seem to be as dull as the other propagators of myths.

You wrote: “The one real reason the two groups were separate could be that Kana people could have been Arabic in origin and already existing Christians had Persian connection when they came in.”

This is possible, but it is in need of facts to support the claim. It is also rife with holes. Why would there be Arabic/Persian tensions? The Church of the East integrated Arabic-speaking Syriac-speaking Persian-speaking peoples with those of other ethnic groups. I doubt such ethnocentric bigotry would have been a characteristic of the old Persian Christians in Kerala. I think there might be something more here than mere language and/or cultural differences…

OK, John. Apart from the name callng, I understand that you are deep into this. Tell me, did n’t you know it was always and always claimed that Knananites came from Kanai Thomman and also that other Syraians called them Vella because Kanai Thomman married from a Veluthedathi? Do we really have anything more than thes e “myths’ , traditions and guesses to establish anything?. Is n’t your “suspicion” of black jews converting to Knas actually without any factual basis but just your hu
nch? Sould I call you imbecile?
I found “port of Kana” in one of the ancient maps at the southern point of Arabian peninsula. Try googling “port of cana, southern gates of arabia – Google books). He came from Edessa which was a great center of Eastern Orthodoxy. This is what I am proposing. Probably they set themselves apart because they knew the old Christians of Kerala had connection with Persian Church.
Why are going ballistic about the Persian Church. In all possibility our early church started through our connection with persia. You can see that there is only so many miles you can cover by sea in the first and second century. Where do you think our names like “Mani” “Thomman” came from? Historically Nestorian Church was very missionary. Only when they were uprooted by Islam and trade roots were cut off by Arabs, we started having connection with the real Orthodoxy of East. The Connection to catholic Roman Curch through Chaldean Church is as good a myth as anything the Catholic clergy spreads. The imortance of Papal Rome increased only when Arabs/Turks destroyed Eastern Christian Centers.
I will leave a piece from New Advent for your belief in our Persian Connection. Was it you who was wondering why we have “pahlavi” in the Persian cross?

From New Advent (Catholic)
Their early prelates
Of the prelates who governed the Church in India after the Apostle’s death very little is known; that little is collected and reproduced here. John the Persian, who was present at the Council of Nice (325), is the first known to history claiming the title. In his signature to the degrees of the Council he styles himself; John the Persian [presiding] over the churches in all Persia and Great India. The designation implies that he was the [primate] Metropolitan of Persia and also the Bishop of Great India. As metropolitan and the chief bishop of the East he may have represented at the council the Catholics of Seleucia. His control of the Church in India could only have been exercised by his sending priests under his juridiction to minister to those Christians. It is not known at what date India first commenced to have resident bishops; but between the years 530-35 Cosmas Indicopleustes in his “topographia” informs us of the presence of a bishop residing in Caliana, the modern Kalyan at a short distance from Bombay. That residence was, in all probability, chosen because it was then the chief port of commerce on the west coast of India, and had easy access and communication with Persia. We know later of a contention which took place between Jesuab of Adiabene the Nestorian Patriarch and Simeon of Ravardshir, the Metropolitan of Persia, who had left India unprovided with bishops for a long period. The Patriarch reproached him severely for this gross neglect. We may take it that up to the period 650-60 the bishops sent to India, as Cosmas has said, were consecrated in Persia, but after this gross neglect the patriarch reserved to himself the choice and consecration of the prelates he sent out to India, and this practice was continued till the arrival of the Portuguese on the coast in 1504.

Le Quien places the two brothers Soper Iso and Prodho on the list of bishops of India, but Indian tradition gives it no support, and in this the British Museum Manuscript Report and Gouvea (Jornada, p. 5) concur. The brothers were known as church-builders, and were reputed to be holy men. Moreover, to include Thomas Cana in the lists of bishops is preposterous on the face of the evidence of the copper-plate grant. The “Report” mentions a long period when there was neither bishop nor priest surviving in the land, for they had all died out; the only clerical survival was a deacon far advanced in age. The ignorant Christians, finding themselves without prelates, made him say Mass and even ordain others, but as soon as prelates came from Babylon they put a stop to this disorder. The next authentic information we have on this head comes from the Vatican Library and has been published by Assemani (Bibli. Or., III, 589). It consists of a statement concerning two Nestorian bishops and their companions and a letter the former written in Syriac to the Patriarch announcing their arrival, dated 1504; there is a translation in Latin added to the documents. In 1490 the Christians of Malabar dispatched three messengers to ask the Nestorian Patriarch to send out bishops; one died on the journey, the other two presented themselves before the Patriarch and delivered their message; two monks were selected and the Patriach consecrated them bishops, assigning to one the name of Thomas and to the other that of John. The two bishops started on their journey to India accompanied by the two messengers. On their arrival they were received with great joy by the people, and the bishops commenced consecrating altars and ordaining a large number of priests “as they had been for a long time deprived of bishops”. One of them, John, remained in India, while the other Thomas, accompanied by Joseph, one of the messengers, returned to Mesopotamia, taking with them the offerings collected for the patriarch. Joseph returned to India in 1493, but Thomas remained in Mesopotamia.

Other Historians beleive that that this “kalian” cannot be Kalyan of Bombay but Kalliani in Kerala (Northern Kollam? – I forgot). Bombay was not a great trading port as the ports of Kerala and Gujarat at that time.

I did n’t see your last paragraph. By 800, probably Syrian Christians of Arab land is already persecuted by raising Islam. Already there is division between Persian Nestorians and Orthodoxy. I would n’t say it will be unnatural for people to set themselves apart in these calamitous situations.

emmarcee:

I think the problem here is you are a late-comer, and you’ve seen only one post of mine (in which I presented a hypothesis and invited informed criticism), and have come to some ridiculous conclusion that I am somehow ignorant or “against” our connections with the Persian / East Syriac Church. I’ll leave it to you to read more of NSC to learn how wrong you are.

I don’t know nor care for Kerala Christian oral traditions. I seek knowledge, and not folk history. Hence, I reject the myths about St. Thomas’ arrival in 52 AD, and I reject the Southist myths about Thomas of Cana as well. I reject the Southist Thomas of Cana stories because it seems that in the old days both Northists and Southists claimed origin from Thomas of Cana.

emarcee, you don’t even know the myths: the oldest stories of Thomas of Cana go like this:
1) Thomas of Cana came from somewhere in West Asia
2) He came with a foreign wife, and many fellow immigrants
3) In Malabar he was received well, and was granted a city
4) He married a local woman
5a) The Northists claim that the Northists are the descendants of Thomas of Cana’s children with the *foreign* woman, who later intermarried with the local Christians; they claim that his children with the local woman formed the basis of the “lower class” Southist community
5b) the Southists claim the reverse

However, for some reason, the Northists stopped with the Thomas of Cana business in the last few centuries. It seems they had better things to do.

Now, like I said, I don’t give a second thought to these myths, other than to deride them. For me, Kerala Christian history starts with Cosmas Indicopleatus and the Persian Christian settlements. It continues up to the 10th century, supported by copious documented exchanges between Malabar and the East Syriac Church, the immigration of Mar Sabor and Mar Aproth, and of course the Pahlavi Crosses. And then, there are the sporadic reports by the Europeans (seeing Nestorians and quasi-pagan Christians) throughout the 12-15th century. By the 16th we have definite knowledge of what happened.

Regarding the Southists, I don’t know about their origins. I know that since the 18th century there has been a continuous evolution in their stories. I discount the affiliation with Thomas of Cana, because there’s no evidence of Thomas of Cana. There’s nothing at all; there’s no evidence of him, any Eddessan connection, and of any Mar Joseph. *However* there is, to me, something fishy about:
1) the similarity between the Black Jew and Southist reference to a Rabban/Mar Joseph
2) the reports by some on NSC of the possibility that the Tjomas of Kana cheppds are identical to the Black Jew cheppads

But, at no point did I ever claim that the Southists were Black Jews. That’s why I’m comfortable calling you an imbecile, and have no faith that you can do the same to me: you claimed your *myth* to be *truth*, whereas I just raised the question. To be honest, I’ve gotten sick of all the Southist-bashing that I’ve seen (people claiming all sorts of idiotic myths, to counteract the idiotic myths the Southists dream up), and I wanted to propose something that might actually have a basis in fact (taking “Mor Joseph” as my starting point). Note: I’m not a Southist, and I’ve even — I’m ashamed to admit — engaged in Southist-bashing.

And, regarding my hypothesis, I asked others on NSC to assail (criticize) this hypothesis, in the hope that some facts pop up. That is, I want to move the discussion of the Southists from the typical hyperbole and/or insults to something grounded in fact.

Again, emmarcee, you are new here, it seems, and have no knowledge of my previous “debates” with others who have tried to force “Jewish-origin” myths. My perspective was, and still is, that there is no evidence that the Malabar Christians were anything other than *East Syriac Christians*.

You wrote: “He came from Edessa which was a great center of Eastern Orthodoxy. This is what I am proposing. Probably they set themselves apart because they knew the old Christians of Kerala had connection with Persian Church.”

emmarcee, stop now while you’re still ahead, and go and *read* some more books and scholarly papers, because your knowledge is highly flawed. *Edessa* is not a center of “Eastern Orthodoxy”, it is a center of Syriac Christianity. The two are completely different. Both the East Syriacs and the West Syriacs see Edessa as a spiritual home. The East Syriac “Nestorians” claim to be the true orthodox faith; the Jacobites call them heretics. The West Syriac “Jacobites” claim to be the true orthodox faith; the Eastern Orthodox call them heretics. The Eastern Orthodox claim to be the true orthodox faith; the Roman Catholics call them heretics. And vice versa. “True Orthodox” is a variable, subjective term. As such it does not belong in a scholarly debate.

You seem to be trying to claim that the Southists were Jacobites from Edessa, and so separated themselves from the Northists due to a theological division. This has a severe flaw. The oldest liturgical works that exist in Kerala are *East Syriac* ones (mostly 14-15th century, with a 12th century manuscript reportedly stored in the Vatican). The oldest West Syriac liturgical works in Kerala are all from the time of Mor Gregorios Abdul Jaleel onwards (post 17th century). There is nothing to suggest that the Southists brought the West Syriac tradition to Kerala. What you are proposing is *wrong*. It also conflicts with the fact that the Catholic Southists claim that Thomas of Cana was sent by the East Syriac Catholicos-Patriarch. And the modern Southist myth is that Thomas of Cana was a Jewish Christian.

All this tells me is that *NO ONE* knows who Thomas of Cana is! Thomas of Cana is a variable that people assign whatever they want to. As such, he is not a reliable foundation for any theory.

The question now is: who is this Mar Joseph that some Southist myths refer to? Is it only the Jacobite Southists that claim Mor Joseph of Edessa accompanied Thomas? Or do the other Southists also refer to Mor Joseph? What are the oldest stories concerning Mor Joseph?

You wrote: “Was it you who was wondering why we have “pahlavi” in the Persian cross?”

No, you imbecile, it wasn’t me. Perhaps you are referring to my questioning why the *Southists* (who claim Jewish origin) have a Pahlavi Cross. I understand why the Northist Syriac Christians of Kerala have Pahlavi Crosses — those are our most ancient artifacts, and the Northists have always claimed to be Christian in origin. But how did the Southists — who claim Jewish origin (or even Jacobite origin, if we take your moronic theory seriously) — get the Pahlavi *Christian* Cross? It doesn’t fit their myths … unless their myths are wrong, or they obtained the Cross through some other means.

Ok Man, Your strategy seems to be the rightful use of “shoot them down” , so you can continue to “propose” whatever BS you are dreaming up. I am new to the site and of course you bet I am irritated by the Knananities misplaced aspiration to be in teh Jewish fold.
But for a person who is claiming to know a great lot about the Kerala Syrian Chrisitianity, you seem to be lacking the correct perspective. (That is a word I just tend to use).
How did you “assume” that I have not read anything about the Knaa myths or whatever else you are supposed to be the king of?
Syriac Christian? and Eastern and Western Syriac Christians? Could you please explain to me how you concocted those names? the etymology?
It is ASSYRIAN CHRISTIAN – OR SYRIAN CHRISTIAN – WHOEVER USES ARAMAIV DERIVED LANGUAGES IN THE LITURGY.
Again, as I said, EDESSA was a great seat of Eastern Christianity. This is where they took the relics of St. Thomas to, supposedly from India. Nisibis, which was joined to Persian Empire, in 3rd century, was the main early seat of Nestorian theology. Edessa as such went with Rome and Byzantine, thus Eastern ORTHODOX.
Your contention that both sides claim they are “Orthodox” does not stand. I kow the word meaning of Ortho-duxo. But we are talking about the legally and internationally accepted term of “Eastern Orthodox: as in the churches which accepted Nicean Creed.
Yes, also, there is evidence that Thomas Of Cana was a merchant from “Edessa” (if my memory is right).
Another thing I found in your writing was that you completely avoid the term “Kananaya Christians” which is the original name of the community. “The name Thekkumbhagar” (which you have anglicised -to Southist- which is better for Jewishness proponents) is used only by the other faction and vice versa. I would say this is like saying “Black and white’ instead of other accepted terms of Afr-americans or Caucasians.
John you should probably start to write in standard terms – otherwise your research may end up nowhere.

emarcee:

You really don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t even know what East and West Syriac refer too? These are standard terms! Break out of your provincial Indian Christian education (woefully deficient) and at least read some Sebastian Brock to learn what the *standard* terms are.

You claim to know the meaning of the word “orthodox”. Who cares? The meaning is clear, but the application is subjective. Look at the Muslims: they consider themselves to be the True Religion, and the rest to be infidels. But the same is the case with the Christians. And the Jews. Anyone can call themselves a “True” Believer. The term is *variable*.

The words “orthodox” and “catholic” are neutral terms meaning, essentially, canonical universal. When Christian sects use those terms in their titles, the assumption is:
a) that they are the True Universal Apostolic Church of Christ
b) that the others are not.

Hence, all sects consider themselves to be orthodox and catholic. The Nestorians call themselves a “Catholic” Church and the Roman Catholics call themselves a “Catholic” Church. The Eastern Orthodox call themselves “Orthodox” and the Oriental Orthodox call themselves “Orthodox”. However, *all* four groups consider the other to be un-catholic and un-orthodox. The Eastern Orthodox, in particular, consider the Syriac/Malankara Orthodox to be heretics, and vice versa.

You wrote: “But we are talking about the legally and internationally accepted term of “Eastern Orthodox: as in the churches which accepted Nicean Creed.”

You are fantastically ignorant, and are in severe need on an education. You are *wrong*. The Eastern Orthodox label is the label applied to the Byzantine Orthodox Churches (i.e., those that accept Chalcedon, and the other Synods upto the 11th century) — the label does *not* apply to the Oriental Orthodox Churches (which includes the West Syriac “Jacobite” Church) which only accept the first three Synods.

Here are the divisions of old Christianity:
a) Church of the East (East Syriac tradition): accepts first 2 councils
b) Oriental Orthodox Churches (including the West Syriac “Syriac Orthodox” or “Jacobite” Church): accepts first 3 councils (rejects Chalcedon)
c) Eastern Orthodox: accepts Chalcedon + others upto the 11th century
d) Roman Catholic: accepts Chalcedon + others upto and after the 11th century

All of the above consider themselves to be the *true* faith, and apply the labels “Orthodox” and/or “Catholic” to indicate that belief. And all of the above consider the other to be un-orthodox.

In fact, the Nicene Creed is not an indicator of anything — all of the above sects follow the Nicene Creed; that doesn’t stop each from considering the other to be heretical. If you’re Orthodox (or Jacobite) go to the ultra-conservative monks at Mount Athos and ask them what they think of you — they’ll call you an unorthodox Monophysite heretic because the Oriental Orthodox Churches (Malankara or Syriac) reject the fourth “ecumenical” council.

You wrote: “How did you “assume” that I have not read anything about the Knaa myths or whatever else you are supposed to be the king of?”

Because, from what you’ve written, it is clear you only know the Jacobite “Knanaya” myths. You don’t seem to know the Syro-Malabar Knanaya myths (who claim Thomas of Cana was sent by the East Syriacs). And you don’t seem to know that the Northists used to claim descent from Thomas of Cana too. You don’t seem to know much of anything. None of those above myths are Jewish either—they predate the recent Kna Jewish myths: and they still conflict with each other!

Southist is the historical term as far as I’ve read; Knanaya is the recently invented term. Again, consult some books on the topic rather that regurgitating the myths your grandparents or Church websites may have told you. The term “Southist” doesn’t imply anything Jewish. (Some Kna have claimed that this is a reference to the southern kingdom in Israel — a laughable claim.)

I’ll use your term, though, since you don’t know sufficient history to be able to cope with the term “Southist”. You say you are “irritated” by the Knanaya myths — that seems to be the case with many people who are proposing ridiculous anti-theories. The Kna seem to want to inflate their status, and people like you want to deflate them — on purely emotional grounds.

Let’s just eliminate the emotional responses, and look for facts.

Again, I don’t think I’ve ever proposed a theory as fact (unlike you who believes (a) Knanaya is a historic term, (b) that the Knanaya were Jacobites from Edessa). I merely asked for comments on the Rabban Joseph hypothesis.

You have nothing substantial to offer here. You don’t have sufficient knowledge to contribute to this discussion. Go back to reciting your myths, fool.

I am not sure of the veracity of the below claims of Knanya’s from Chapter I

Some of the things heard was the Catholicose of the East or a Metroploitian had a dream (one version has he heard it from merchants) that the Thomas Christians in Malankara had shortage of ministers. So he sends 72 families under Thomas of Cana to to help strengthen and re-invigorate the weakened St. Thomas Christians of India. And the date derived from Knaithomman Chepped or Knaithomman Copper plates, granted (?) in 345 AD with seventy-two privileges engraved on it.

But “if” the above date [345 AD] was true……I doubt it would have to do completely with the pathetic state of the St. Thomas Christians. In reality the the Christians in the persian empire were in a worse situation during those times. From 337-350 Persian(Sassanids) under Shapur II (ruler 309 to 379) wages wars against Roman empire. And in response to the Christianization of the Roman Empire under Constantine I (emperoror 306-337), starting with edict of Milan in 313, Shapur II considers all Christians in his kingdom as a fifth column and beging violent pesecution.

340-363 was considered as The Great Persecution of the Persian church.
344 Martyrdom of Catholicos Shimun bar Sabbae, 5 bishops and 100 priests
345 Martyrdom of Catholicos Shahdost
346 Martyrdom of Catholicos Barbashmin
From http://nestorian.org/nestorian_timeline.html

This situation rather than the compassion for St. thomas Christians could have led to the exodus of the Knanaya christians from Persia. To escape they get a hold of a merchant who had trade relations with India, Knanya Thoman. And under his leadership reaches India, escaping persecution. Considering the martyrdom of multiple Catholicose during the period, I am not sure if there is much truth to the claims that they were send under his instruction. But such an excuse would have made them more acceptable in this foreign land among their fellow believers.

This hypotheses would make the Knanya christians Persian christians, and could explain presence of the Persian Crosses in the knanya churches.

All the above depends on the AD345 date.

Alphy:

The problem I have with this is the Pahlavi Crosses are dated to the 7th century or later (ref: Phillipe Gignoux, Burnell, etc.) on the basis of the nature of the inscription. Next, most of the Pahlavi Crosses are in the possession of non-Knanaya — whether it be the Syriac Christians of Kerala, the ruins of Ceylon, Goa, or Mylapore.

I think that it is highly likely that Persian Christians immigrated to Malabar due to the aforementioned persecutions and for economic reasons. However, I doubt they formed endogamous communities as there is a letter from the East Syriac Catholicos (between the 4th and 11th century … I don’t have the source on hand, but I can dig it up — I believe I posted it elsewhere on this site) authorizing intermarriage between Persian and Indian Christians.

Does Mar Joseph figure in all Knanaya stories, or just recent ones?

Do the copper plates you refer to exist anywhere? Copies?

Oops, sorry Alphy, I should have read the article you linked to.

Okay, so Mar Joseph is not just a Jacobite Southist figure, he’s also in the Syro-Malabar Southist stories.

Maybe if we could get our hands on the Portuguese translation, we could learn some more… and compare it with some of the other Indo-Semitic cheppeds in Kerala (the Kollam ones, the Black Jewish ones).

I highly doubt the 4th century date though … we don’t have anything in Kerala that’s been around that long… If we did those “anonymous” historians the article refers to would be famous!

The Syriac Orthodox Church is an autocephalous Oriental Orthodox church based in the Middle East, with members spread throughout the world. It parted ways with Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism over the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which the Syriac Orthodox Church rejects. It is a major inheritor of Syriac Christianity and has Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic, as its official language. The church is led by the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch.
Official name
The church is often referred to as Jacobite (after Jacob Baradaeus) or Monophysite, but it rejects these names. In 2000, a Holy Synod ruled that the name of the church in English should be the “‘Syriac Orthodox Church”. Before this it was, and often still is, known as the “Syrian Orthodox Church”. The name was changed to disassociate the church from the polity of Syria. The official name of the church in Syriac is ʿIdto Suryoyto Triṣuṯ Šuḇḥo; this name has not changed, nor has it changed in any language other than English.[6]

I posted the above to only show that only a SOB KAA tholican will write that Jacobite Church is not “Orthodox ” because it did not part take in Chalcedonian Council. I will get mor etime when I retire and sit in Canada eating from social security. Till then, whenever I see stupidity this Fool will jump in. Adios.
and Nicene creed is nothing when you are talking about Orthodoxy!!

emmarcee is a fool, as is obvious from his meager posts.

I’m a Jacobite, as most of the people here know. Unlike him, however, I can separate my canonical affiliation from the pursuit of history.

Unable to state facts, however, the coward left. Good riddance!

Johny, all you know is to call others “you fool”, “Idiot”, as you keep on pushing your own version of history and classifications for your own convenience. In your own classification, (I acknowledge that I did not read that post fully at the time) you include the Jacobites group under Orthodoxy and you accept that East Syrian Church as not Orthodox. Right? Isn’t this the same thing I said? – Catholic, 2 orthodox churches mainly ( I think may be 5 or 6? – in the Chalcedonian accpeting), and fully Persian by history.
For clarification, is n’t this East Syrian the same as the Nestorian Church ? (so called – but they are denying now?).
I would like to stick with the name “(a)Syrian”, because they seem to have changed to “Syriac” only because some people were getting confused with Syria the country.

Dear Alphy
Regarding kanaya thommen also read from a syric study note have given in a college that
In the year 345 A.D Thomas of cana, an Edessan merchant, came to malabar with 472 families of Mesopotomain Christians. The king assigned to Thomas and his followers extensive lands near his Capital city and they settled down there. Unfortunately there arose a split among the colonists, 400 families standing as one party and the rest remaining sepereate. The group of the 400 famillies settled in the northern street of the colony and the other group in the southern street Those who settled in the north were called Vadakkumbhagar and those in the south Thekkumbhagar. The Vadakkumbhagar carried on evangelization and added new christians to their community. The Thekkumbhagar did not evangelize any and remained a community distinct and isolated. The arrival of these colonists increased the prestige and strength of the malabar church. The racial admixture and social contact of the indian christians with the foreign race served to improve their quality and to better their political, social and economic status. And many do mention that they came in malabar because of persecution in those west asian land. that when chrisitaniy became popular. Rome tried to make it underthem. whoever did not accept got killed or ranaway from those places. So these can be the reason for all immigraions to malabar.

emmarcee:

Those terms were aptly used — you clearly do not know much about general Christianity, other than your own classification system based on a superficial education. Yes, that’s right — it is your classification system that is in error. Consult any source on Christianity and you’ll see what the difference between “Eastern” and “Oriental” Orthodox are. And you’ll see how the terms “Catholic” and “Orthodox” are used by all sects.

My classification system is not ad hoc — it is based on commonly accepted terms. The term “Orthodox” is used by two broad groups of churches both of which consider the other to be heretics:
a) the Oriental Orthodox “miaphysites” (which includes the Syriac Orthodox Church)
b) the Eastern Orthodox “chalcedonians” (which includes the Greek Orthodox Church)
*Those* are the standard terms. Don’t believe me? Go and research for yourself.

Now, the term “Assyrian” is not even universally accepted by all “Syriac” speaking peoples: have you even talked to Middle Eastern Syriac Orthodox people? Go to New Jersey and try to push the “Assyrian” label on the Orthodox there. Perhaps in Cali the term may be safely used. Now go to Europe and try the same. At best you’ll get a verbal scolding; at worst you’ll loose some teeth. Many prefer to be called “Aramean”, believing “Assyrian” to be a term introduced by missionaries.

“Syrian” isn’t even accepted — since it is a Greek term, and the Syriac-speaking peoples are a little bitter about the Greeks.

-”Syrian” is a term that applies to a geographical location, that doesn’t even really coincide with the home land of the Syriac-speaking peoples (which is Northern Mesopotamia; Tur Abdin, Mardin, Ur — areas that are mostly in Turkey and Iraq).
-”Syriac” is the commonly-accepted term for the class of languages spoken by both the East Syriac and West Syriac Christians — hence, it is very accurate to call the Churches that use the Syriac language as “Syriac” Churches. It is far more accurate than “Syrian” — a Greek term for a piece of land that has little to do with the Syriac-speaking peoples. Don’t believe me? Go and consult some Syriac scholars. If you really are a Jacobite from the US, you should find plenty of Middle Eastern Syriac Orthodox Rabbans that you can ask. Or you can read the works of Brock, consult the books published by Gorgias Press (run by a Syriac Orthodox layman and Syriac scholar), consult the articles published by the Patriarch and his bishops, etc. You’ll find out how wrong you are (and how accurate it was for me to label you an ignorant idiot …). In fact, you’ll knowledge is so decrepit, that I doubt you’re an Orthodox /Jacobite — I have a hard time believing any of my compadres could be that dull.

The “Syriac” peoples themselves call themselves “Suryoyo”: “speakers of Syriac”. Nothing to do with Syrian, or Assyrian.

-East Syriac applies to the eastern group of Syriac languages and the liturgical tradition developed in that language (used by the Nestorians and the Chaldeans: the term East Syriac is commonly used to designate both those groups who have a shared liturgy and history)
-West Syriac applies to the western group of Syriac languages and the liturgical traditions developed in that language (used by the Syriac Orthodox “Jacobites”, the Maronites, and the Syriac Catholics)
-Assyrian is a contentious term — many Syriac-speaking people object to that term and prefer “Aramean” — again you, out of your manifest ignorance, “like to use” Assyrian, not knowing that it is a controversial one.

emmarcee — you claim I am being ad hoc, I claim you are being ad hoc. However, on reading both of our comments, any objective reader with any knowledge of general Christianity will see that your claim is erroneous. Go and read Sebastian Brock’s primers on the subject (Sebastian Brock is an English Syriac scholar, who is recognized by the Patriarch as a *Malphono* — teacher — of the Syriac Orthodox Church).

Finally, on the topic of “Orthodox” you clearly misread what I was saying. This is not a missionary website: you spouting about how the Catholics are SOBs because they accept Chalcedon, and how we are the *true* Orthodox does not help anything. These matters — “true-nes”, etc — are subjective matters that can’t be debated, because they are up to personal beliefs. I personally object to Chalcedon, but I try not to let that contaminate my arguments by objecting to the use of the terms “Catholic” and “Orthodox” by Chalcedonian Churches. I use the standard terms — again, emmarcee, you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

Perhaps I was too abrasive — but when one reads the same BS put forth by ignorant people, one tends to get irritated. Go and read some more — you have nothing substantial to contribute at this point, you have no knowledge of these matters. You seem to have been educated by propaganda texts and Church websites — bad sources for a scholarly debate. Go and read some authorities on the topic — start with Brock who is, once again, an authority recognized by Patriarch Zakka as a Malphono (Syriac scholar). You will find that my terminology is highly standard.

RP,
It was not just the Portugese who tried to convert Syrian christians. There were many more Christians in malabar and now only very few pockets are left because of the Atrocity of Hyder Ali and Tipu who came all the way to Thrichur during their Padayottam. This is why there are only very few pockets of Syrian jacobites north of Cochin – like Kanjagaad? ( I can’t remember exactly the name of the place, where people ran to from different places during this time of terror). It is recorded that Christians in the malabar area had gun weilding militias.

This fools theory is that there are more Catholics in Cochin area because of the Raja’s connection with the Portugese. It is all business as usual.
The Jacobite Syrians who did not have support from anybody had to settle mostly in the Northern Travancore area, running between small chieftains – Swaroopams. If they are in trouble in one place they will just move to another small swaroopam area. They had to clear mostly jungly areas, fighting with hard soil to get their life back together. Things probably started getting better once British trade and more stability came in.
Can the KiIng of the Hill, History Pundit tell us , if the main Knanaya areas are more towards old market areas (like Kottayam) – denoting a tendency to be more business oriented. Did the Portugese try to split the community by creating stories about Kanai Thomman? Just like they probably created stories of St. Thomas converting Brahmins in AD 52.

John,
I have a colleague/ good friend who is a Persian Syrian Christrian with whom I always talk history: he refers to the language as Aramaya and always refer to his community as “Syrians”. You will find a lot of them on west coast whether they are Catholics, Protestanta or Chaldean Church. The name and language came from Assyrians of the ancient past, who ran over Northern Kingdoms and made them use this language. Yes I remember him saying something like “Syrayano”.. just as given in the Weekipedia. (The Church’s name in local language stays as–..). So it all depends on whom you ask probabaly. Weekipedia entry by the church people themselves show that the original name was Syrian Church and they changed recently to Syriac, to avoid confusion with Syria the country.
BTW, when I read it again and thought about it, there could be something in your “Black Jews”. What could have happened to the Jewish merchants of Kerala, when they met the Portugese?. Definietly they must have been in cross roads because already the Arabs were established in Calicut by that time.

Did the Portugese claim a Cheppedu (Ofcourse the disappearing act – like the plates of Joseph Smith) so that they can take over the land that was granted to the Jews? as in Tharisaappilli? Claiming that the Rabban was a Bishop from Edessa? Very possible. Knowing how history gets manipulated all the time. (Southern kingdom of Judea makes me laugh even now).

emmarcee

RE-17758

Your understanding about the geographical distribution of Nazranies is erroneous .Malankara Nazranies are concentrated in and around old capitals or market places while Romo- Syrians are more centered around coastal belt or nearer areas with few exceptions. Knanayas have few pockets but they are not majority even in these pockets. Best example is Kottayam.

emmarcee:

We all have friends from this or that culture, who try to “inform” us about the “truth”. No offense, but such knowledge is questionable at best. I don’t claim to know more than your friend knows; but I would rather trust my scholars than anecdotal evidence. This is akin to your dislike of wikipedia—I share this dislike, because it includes too much “novel research”, anecdotal evidence, etc. Utterly useless.

For example, one obvious error in your friend’s statement is that he believes the ancient Assyrians were the fathers of Syriac / Aramaic. This is definitely *not* true: the language certainly did *not* come from the Assyrians of the distant past.

The old Assyrian conquerors spoke a language descended from Akkadian. The Arameans were an ethnic minority community within the empires of the Assyrians (the Arameans never seemed to have been skilled in warfare, and were basically dominated by X or Y throughout their long history). Due to their mass dispersal through out the empire, however, it was their language — *Aramaic* — that ended up becoming the lingua franca of the Middle East. This process is called “Arameanization” by Assyriologists. It’s a bit of poetic justice … a people who were conquered, ended up culturally conquering their conquerors. Aramaic was so influential that it crept into Pahlavi too. Of Akkadian — the language of the Assyrians — nothing really lives, except what permeated into Aramaic.

You don’t like wikipedia, and neither do I. It’s decent for objective topics like mathematics or science, but it’s horrible for cultural and religious topics. Great — so go to a library and read about this and you’ll discover what I’m saying is standard knowledge; it’s not novel research, just a reporting of facts. The ancient Assyrian conquerors were not the originators of the “Syriac” language.

This is but one of the many reasons why there is a huge controversy in the Syriac Orthodox community (and the broader Assyrian/Aramean community) regarding the use of the term “Assyrian” as opposed to the term “Aramean”.

The Persian Christians (Nestorians and Chaldeans) seem to have no problem with the terms Assyrian and/or Chaldean — but many Jacobites and Syriac-speaking people feel that those terms are inaccurate terms misapplied to the Syriac-speaking peoples by foreign missionaries (Assyrian was favored by the Protestants in labeling the Nestorians, Chaldean was favored by the Catholics in labeling the East Syriacs in communion with Rome).

The point: Assyrian is no better a term than Syrian or Aramean. All are contentious. The only “unloaded” term that can be used — and it is used by scholars — is Syriac. As in “Syriac Christian”, “Syriac Orthodox”, “Syriac Catholic”, “East Syriac Church”, “West Syriac Church”, “Syriac tradition”, etc.

But many — especially Indian so-called “scholars” — are still quite lazy, and use the erroneous term “Syrian” (“Syrian language”, “Syrian Christian”, “Syrian Orthodox”, “Orthodox Syrian”, etc.). And others, due to recent tradition, or political inclination, favor the loaded terms “Assyrian” or “Aramean”. For the latter, the best compromise that I’ve seen is the hybrid “Assyrian/Aramean”, which some nationalists have started to use to ensure there is unity.

But to really show you how useless anecdotal evidence from “friends” are, why don’t you plan a trip to New Jersey and meet some of the MIddle Eastern Jacobites there. Or even better, go to Germany or Sweden. Try to push the “Assyrian” term on them and see what results… Ethnic groups are notorious for hyperbole and inaccurate knowledge — just look at the Southists, and the “Jewish” Nasranis.

For me, if it can’t be written in a refereed scholarly journal, then it isn’t worth using. That’s why, like I said before, Indian Christian history starts (for me) at the very earliest in the 5th century with Cosmas. And that’s why I reject any of the fantastic dates proposed by Indian scholars like AD 52, AD 72, AD 345, and silly statements on Church websites like “this Church was build in the 4th century by …”, or “Thomas of Cana came in AD 345 with 72 families and Mar Joseph of Edessa/Ur who was deputed by the East/West Syriac Patriarch who had a dream on May 1st at 4:30am GMT …” …

Come on! The oldest docs we have in Kerala are from the 12th century and they are Nestorian: *nothing* exists before that (that’s been found). The oldest epigraphy: 7th century Pahlavi. Before that? Nothing other than second hand reports by the occasional Nestorian Patriarch or traveler. With such scanty evidence, how could you have any confidence so as to make such definitive statements?

Regarding the Crosses

As far as I understand, Southists do not have any relation to the Saint Thomas Cross. The entire history of Southist is based on hypothesis, which is with out any evidences. If there was even some possibility, they would have presented the evidence long time back, as they do with everything else. The only thing which link Southists is the presence of the cross in one of their church. That’s only in one Church, which was built later in time, when compared to other churches, where the Cross is found. The Kottayam Southist Church was built in sixteenth century (?). I don’t know how one of these Cross came into Southist possession. Some early accounts such as Jornada says that the Crosses found in Mylapore called Saint Thomas Cross, were seen in all the Churches of Saint Thomas Christians. They claim that they came from somewhere and lived in Cranganore and dispersed to other parts in sixteenth century. Till a century back, Southist were known as Ancharapallikar. The oldest Church which carries this Cross, as I understand is Muttuchira, which is a Saint Thomas Christian Church. The oldest Cross in India is Mylapore Cross. Goan Cross is also dated belonging to 6th century. The Kerala crosses are dated between 6-8th centuries. Anyone has more information about the dating of these Crosses.(?) Florated Persian Cross are also at Niranam and Kottakavu, which belong to Saint Thomas Christians.

I have revised the article about Crosses and did the corrections we discussed and added some more information.

It is said that, the Church of Persia had liturgical celebration in Pahlavi. Bishop Ma’na of Rew Ardashir made a Pahlavi translation of Bible in 420 AD. A copy of this Bible in Pahlavi language was excavated in 1966 in Turfan in China. This is now kept at Berlin. ( Gerd Gropp). The Persian Christians in China or anywhere else were not practitioners of endogamy.

The historical evidence we have, as per from tradition and records is a link with Mar Sapor and Mar Peroz. That is based on the Pahlavi. These Crosses, which were found in locations in the Indian Ocean rim carry Pahlavi inscriptions, and so are the copper plates granted to Mar Sapor and Mar Peroz, which also bear Pahlavi signatures. ( Gerd Cropp- “ Christian Maritime Trade of Sasanian Age in the Persian Gulf” is a good source on the Persian Maritime trade )

Persian Christians has never been endogamous anywhere as far as I know. Around Six hundred and thirty gravestones have been excavated from a single cemetery in Turkestan. The names written indicate that people from China, India, east and West Turketan, Mongloia, Persia et co – existed there. Some of the names in gravestone are “Terim the Chinese”, Banus the Uighurian”, Sazik the Indian”, Tatta the Mongol” etc. There is no inbreeding as far as I know in Eastern Christianity.

These are some of the statements made by Emmarcee. Can he share more information ?

1. ” Kananaya Christians” is the original name of Southists.- Based on what information ?
2. “Portugese were very good at making stories – including the Brahmin conversions”. Which Portuguese account mention this ? What does other Portuguese sources say ?
3. “There is evidence that Thomas Of Cana was a merchant from “Edessa”- What is the evidence ?
4. About the population statistics and locations. What Jeevan stated is also wrong. Please provide some statistics, if possible century wise in support of these claims. If you could, Please post these demographic details in the thread on demography. Any idea about how many Catholic Churches were destroyed in Tippu’s padayottam ?

To admn:

There is always higher possibilty of using Pahlavi in liturgy when they wanted to be seen as one with the ruling dynasty. Persian church probably did not want to be seen as an enemy of the state as they were trying to survive at the time of persecution. Also, could Pahlavi add any missionary value to spreading the religion to the northwest India, Afghanistan? Possibly?

ooo. admn:
I will be careful next time. You caught me. These are all my own theories. No proof. I wouid love to go researching . May be another liftime. But for now I beleive I am very good at connecting the dots. I go with the hunch and test it out.
Kananya: .. I did not know that there was no evidence of this community before Portugese (as somone mentioned in this blog) . What I knew was that this community split when the Jacobites split from Catholic domination in 16th century. So I believe there wwas such a community, which kept its endogamous relation even after Coonan Cross satyam.
Now legend of Kanai Thomman is not a new one. Even my grandmother knew this. Whereas Thekkumbhagar seems to be a word used by Vadaakkumbhagar (a term I don’t usually come across – may be because I don’t live with the “Southists”)). So to me, it seems like the Thekkumbhagar is just a term denoting the “other people”.. it is really not about a “Southism”.. but more like Southerner.
I don’t really beleive that there was an original legend that both parties came from Thomas Canai – th e number one story by Northerner is that Knas are children of Veluthedathi (so Charamketti) by Thomas. There is no major legend by Northerner claiming a genetic link to Thomas. May be an year ago I read a detailed study by a young westerner regarding these legends. I was doing a rearch after I heard for the first time that they are Kerala Jews!!

Portugese:
It is evident that the story of Barhmin conversion is a concocted one. The legend is of enough antiquity that by now every Suriani Christiani in Kerala beleives that his or her family came from Pakalomattom. People have even started making their own family legends tracing this ancestry. Now, when and who would have done this and aided this? Who had power over the entire Christian group of Malabar around 4 centuries ago? Definitely these stories came out before the English era. English did not care much about Christians. Dutch did not have enough power and they were more protestant (?)/ Who was involved with re-writing of Kerala’s church history and destruction of old liturgy? Who was more ant-Brahminic as they knew they are the leaders of the idolators? Who found St.Thomas mount in Madras?

The Roman Catholic Clergy who came with the Portugese studied the local culture and politics and formed a detailed game plan. They had known that St.Thomas came to India, but did not know where or any details as to what he could have done.
Can somebody do a real research into these Paattukal – I am sure that they will find the Malayalam used in those songs are not older than 4 or 5 centuries. When people make up pseudo histories they leave evidence behind.

Edessa – I have to withdraw the whole thing. May be it was something that I just “read” somwhere. Each time you read and research, these things appear differently. This time it is the Bishop from Edessa – could be an invention.

RE: emmarcee:

He wrote: “I don’t really beleive that there was an original legend that both parties came from Thomas Canai – th e number one story by Northerner is that Knas are children of Veluthedathi (so Charamketti) by Thomas. There is no major legend by Northerner claiming a genetic link to Thomas.”

Oh! E doesn’t “believe” it eh? That’s E’s tool — faith and belief. If only science would permeate the vacuum between his ears. “The number one story …” … is that the number one story your grandmother told you? Or do you have some ranking system we should know of?

Obviously this individual basis his entire world view on the limited knowledge he has access too, and allows his “faith” to contaminate and filter that knowledge. What a useless source of information …

You can consult:
Northists and Southists: A Folklore of Kerala Christians
Author(s): Richard Michael Swiderski
Source: Asian Folklore Studies, Vol. 47, No. 1 (1988), pp. 73-92
to learn that the legends of Thomas of Cana’s two wives are indeed very old. The article discusses the history of the various “Knanaya” legends, from the earliest “two wive theory” that both Northists and Southists propagated, to the 20th century fantasies of E.M.Philippose and the “Knanaya as Jew” BS.

I don’t know when and why the Northists stopped claiming descent from Thomas of Cana, but it certainly appears that in the past they also claimed descent from Thomas of Cana.

There must be other reasons for the Southist practice of endogamy other than “foreign” origin hypothesis. In Kollam there are plenty of families that claim to have come with Mar Sabor and Mar Aproth during the 10th century immigration — however, *none* of them practice endogamy. And, as Admin mentioned, there is no report of endogamy amongst the Syriac Christians of West Asia, or other Eastern Christian populations — such racialist ideas are decidedly un-Christian.

emmarcee likes to play his childish games of connect the dots — unfortunately, the dots he uses are imprecise and corrupt … due — once again — to his sheer lack of knowledge.

Johny,
It must be your superior skills making you dependent on the Swiderski’s writing. This is the same thing I read last year or so. It is not real research. I don’t want to blame the writer because he is just going around asking questions. Answer depends on who you are asking, You are the one getting into conclusions. You have to decide which is the most prevalent idea. If I say that you were born as a bastard, and all the others in your village says I am lying, will my version be counted as “one of the legends?”. You yourself says that you don’t know why the Vadakkumbhagar stopped claiming the ancestry. Sooner or later we may have to come to a consensus. Southern Kingdom of Judea should be out of the window. The only thing we know is that “Thekkumbhagar” southerners (not southist – as if they made a pledge to stay on South? ) were content to marry into their own people. May be

If I remember correctly at the end of the book/ Paper, the writer does not give any conclusion. Looks like you are the person depending on legends than using your own brain to throw out the unwanted info and put pieces together.
My professor used to say: Information is nobody’s personal property. You can read books, you can google, you can check weeki whatever: what matters is how you use the information. I would continue to be a child.

E:

Swiderski is not inventing facts; he cites older sources. Nor is Swiderski my only source. I only cited him to counter your ridiculously confident assertion that there were no Northist claims to Thomas of Cana.

At any rate, I could care less about this topic because I’ve read too many baseless stories connected to Thomas of Cana—I’m more interested in exploring Rabban Joseph of the Black Jews and Mar Joseph of Southist legends. Unlike you, I haven’t drawn and connections yet; however, I would like more information. (In addition to your sheer lack of knowledge, this is another difference between you and I: you are quick to draw conclusions, while I am always on the fence, looking for more information.)

Like I said before, any reference to “Thomas of Cana” is suspect to me since there’s no evidence concerning him. I merely provided a cite to Swiderski to show that there indeed are old legends regarding Thomas’ two wives. This is something that the old Portuguese writer’s refer to too — this is significant since the Ports are the oldest of the modern writers on our history. You may not like them (that’s your prejudice) but they are the only ones out there who wrote about things in that era.Our native Indian historians, folk traditions, and stories circulated by grandparents and priests are pretty much useless due to the high content of hyperbolic fantasies.

And regarding your question about bastards: yes, as far as I’m concerned:
a) if ones person, A, says “x” without proof, and
b) if n people, B1, B2, … Bn, says “y” without proof
then as far as I am concerned “x” and “y” are both **assertions without proof** that both deserve to be in the same bin (i.e., the bin of useless facts) until more information comes to light where they can be weighed and placed in an order of value.

The weight that should be applied to “x” or “y” should come not from the number of people who claim “x” or “y” but from the amount of factual evidence that supports “x” or “y”. History is not by consensus or anecdote (have you even read my refutation of your Persian Christian friend’s erroneous history of Syriac, yet?) but by evidence, science, and logic.

E:

I’m surprised to learn that you actually went to a university, let alone have any form of formal schooling. It’s unbelievable that anyone with a modern education could have such ignorance of basic logic and science.

At any rate, you’ve been asked for information by two people now, but have only printed more anecdotes, and referred to your “faith-based” mental filter. And this is after you said you’d leave because you were tired of my slaughtering of your useless “facts”.

If you do indeed have an education, and perhaps have some ability to read books (as opposed to relying on your grandparent’s fairy tales, anecdotal evidence, etc.) perhaps you should put this literacy (if you do possess it) to work and consult some sources in a library or a scholarly journal. Perhaps remove the biases of your faith, and try to filter information objectively based on how much *evidence* is there, rather than simply how many people have made the claim.

Then come back, and perhaps you’ll be able to actually make a cogent statement without inserting your foot in your mouth.

(And I still can’t believe that you are a Jacobite… this is highly disillusioning — so much so that I refuse to believe it…).

O don’t blame the Persian, I have done my own reading. The guy uses these terms when he talks about “Syrians” of – for example “California”.
BTW, are you one of the admn too? or am I running into assumption? I am easily corrected.