Mr Jacob Kuruvilla,
Can you please request your nephew to open the KANAIM project results to the public? Can you at the very least ask him to explain why is it hidden for almost a decade? What is there to hide?
Kezhakken

Jacob:

You provide some facts, distort some, and ignore others.

Now, you probably realize your inability to provide any defense against the East Syriac Church being our ancestral faith (as opposed to the West Syriac Church) and so you now confuse matters by asking for lists of Catholic bishops. Who cares? That’s not the discussion.

Now, there are plenty of lists of East Syriac bishops. This site has many postings and articles to that effect: all of the pre-15th century bishops were either from the Church of the East (Nestorians) or the Chaldean Church (after their schism) — not one of those bishops were Jacobites. Prior to the 17th century the Jacobites Church of Antioch had absolutely zero historically-recorded dealings with Malabar. ZERO.

Jacob:

Another thing: try telling a Knanaya Southist that you follow the original rite. When they stop laughing at your ignorance, your simplicity, your inability to comprehend reality they’ll ask you for your oldest Tekso.

You’ll show them the Liturgy of Saint James whose oldest copy in India (in the possession of the Northist priests…) dates from the 18th century.

Then they’ll show you their Liturgies of Adai and Mari, they’re Hudra, they’re prayer books whose oldest copies, in the old East Syriac script, date from the 15th century.

Then they’ll show you the copious letters from the East Syriac patriarch to the Nasranis from ancient times.

Then they’ll call you a typical *PUTHEN*-koor, may tell you to go and follow your *new* rite, while they follow the *PAZHAYA* rite.

The terminology is that way for a reason.

Does anybody know of a knanaya DNA project done by DNA Tribes? i came across it and it says knanaya DNA clusters mostly with middle eastern populations and specifically southern part of the Arabian peninsula. would anybody familiar with this please elaborate.

Mr.Kezhakken,
My nephew in U.S.A got his genetic mapping done by National Geographic in the year 2007 just for curiosity. He does not know that there is a KNAIM project. Even I came to know about it from you. The result of his Haplogroup I have aleady put earlier in my posts in this forum. So, there is no hiding for 10 years. You do too much of guess work and now I have a feeling that using words like “hiding” etc. is with hidden agenda . What is that hidden agenda I don’t know. In fact I have communicated the mapping results to Sandeep(Thamarappally ) also long back just for his information.
Jacob Kuruvilla

John Mathew,
Nesthorianism originated after Council of Ephesius in 430 A.D. The Syrian Immigration of Thomas of Kana and his group sent by Patriarch of Antioch arrived in Kodungallore in the year 345A.D.
Therefore, you have to get the years right. Secondly, The Jacobian Thaksa in Syriac language brought by The Knananites, copy of which is kept in Old Knananite church like the Kottayam Valiapally which was built almost 500 years ago.
I understand that you are more or less comming to the point that There existed a church with supremacy of Patriarch of Antioch existed before the Roman Catholics which started after the Portugese arrived.
Jacob Kuruvilla

Jacob,

You live in a fantasy land. I used to as well. But what makes you interesting is you have absolutely no desire to check facts. You seem to be content with accepting whatever dogmatic political junk theories your leaders feed you. This is beyond the Southist thing; you basically don’t understand Christian history.

1. The oldest Jacobite tekso in India is that written by Mor Ivanios (who arrived with Mor Baselios). It has nothing to do with Southists; it was copies by Mor Ivanios in the Church of Kadamattom in the 18th century. This is a verifiable fact; that is, this is the oldest text that anyone has seen, and no one has seen an older text. If said older texts exists, nobody’s (i.e., no Syriac scholar) has seen it.
2. The Southist Churches in Malabar are all post-15th century; they are by no means the oldest Churches in India. They are all recent, which is likely due to the fact that the Southists were Jews before they converted to Christianity. Saying that there’s an old tekso in a recent, 15th century Church is of no value at all.

Now, more fundamental: you don’t even know Church history.

3. The Church of Antioch was **Greek** (not Syriac) until the Jacobites split in the 5th century. That is, the order in terms of age is this:
a) oldest Church of Antioch is the Greek Church of Antioch
b) the Church of Mesopotamia was subordinate to the Greek Patriarchate of Antioch until it became independent due to it being the Persian Empire. This Church became the Church of the East, and is where the vast bulk of ancient Syriac liturgical material was developed. Yes, that Church may have adopted Nestorianism later on, but it split from the Greek Church of Antioch *BEFORE* the Jacobite Church came to exist. And when it accepted Nestorianism (controversial) there’s nothing to indicate it’s daughter Churches in India, China, Persia, etc., didn’t accept the same teachings to remain in communion.
c) the Miaphysite/Chalcedonian controversy, along with ethnic tensions, caused many of the rural ethnic Assyrians/Arameans of the Greek Church of Antioch to split from the mother Church and form a rival Church which today stands as the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch. It basically translated all of the original Greek liturgical material to Syriac, and also added many of the Mesopotamian Church’s material to it. The oldest Tekso of the Liturgy of Mor James is in *GREEK*; a significant fraction of so-called Syriac ecclesiastical terms are actually mere transliterations of Greek terms (e.g., Tekso, Anaphora, etc), the Syriac liturgies even use Greek terms to this day (from the mundane Stoumen Kalos, to the more signifiant “Sophia…”, “Kurieleison”, “Promeon”, etc.). Yet, no Greek liturgy uses Syriac terms.

Even Syriac Orthodox bishops retain the original Greek naming scheme: in addition to such obvious Greek names as Baselios, Gregorios, Philoxenus, Ignatius, etc., we still even use Greek forms of Hebrew names that already have Syriac parallels. That is, have you ever wondered why our bishops are named Ivanios? Ivanios is the Greek for John. But John is a *Hebrew* name with a Syriac version: Yohannan. Yet in the ancient Syriac Churches, the West Syriac Jacobites used the term Ivanios for their bishops while the East Syriacs used Yohanan. Why? Perhaps because the East Syriac schism occurred first, which the West Syriac one having happened far later in time, after many Graecisms were absorbed. The point: the West Syriac Church is at its core a young copy of the original, ancient Greek Church of Antioch.

Many Syriac Christians are a little too eager to prove the antiquity of Syriac Christianity, at the expense of Greek Christianity. That is nothing other than a lie, and an insult to the Greek teachers of the Church.

There is nothing pertaining to people in Kerala that can be dated to AD 345. With respect to Christians our oldest artifacts date from the 6th century (earliest) with third-party accounts of us being contemporary. Hence the date of AD 345 is fiction. No one possess records that any historian would accept. The Southist songs to this effect are a late tradition. The marriage songs are old; the histories are, like all South Indian Christian histories, old, with a lot of fiction added (where its the the Nasrani AD 52 delusion, or the Southist AD 345: both are big talkers with no substance).

Now, if you subscribe to the fiction that the Southists came in AD 345, that’s your delusion. Then to be consistent you would have to acknowledge that he was deputed by the Greeks in Antioch, and not to the non-existent Syriac patriarchate of Antioch.

You can go and verify these facts from objective historical sources. You don’t have to read any of the pro- and anti- BS coming out of India. This stuff is very well known and can be found in any source on Oriental Christianity.

You’re statement: “The Jacobian Thaksa in Syriac language brought by The Knananites, copy of which is kept in Old Knananite church”
is the most absurd, ridiculous statement to ever come out of an ostensibly sentient human being. I challenge you to go and check that Tekso out to understand its vintage. If what you say is true, that there was a West Syriac tekso in India that dated prior to the 17th century it would be a *HUGE* thing. It would just be you mentioning it here on this discussion board, it would be huge and momentous. This would be the thing the Jacobites in India have been waiting for: proof to their antiquity. So far all we can say without looking stupid is we were around back at the time of Mor Gregorios Abdul Jaleel.

Syriac scholars around the world would be incredible interested in it, and Jacobite apologists in India would basically be able to point to that to tell the Malankara Orthodox Church and the Syro-Malabar and everyone else that they are the real Pazhayakoor. (My old fantasy, if you read my oldest embarrassing posts here on NSC).

If this did exist, then all of the stupidly idiotic moronic statements of propaganda put out by the Jacobite apologists (that totally embarrass me, a member of the same Church, due to their manifestly moronic illogical erroneous content) would not have to exist. We would only have to point to this ancient Tekso and say “Aha! We’re the oldest ones!”. But that doesn’t exist. It definitely doesn’t. SEERI (where our Malphone teach at), Sebastian Brock, Istvan Perzcel would all have cited it if it did exist. But NO. It does not exist. No way. No how. And if someone there told you that their tekso was the original, then they were yanking your chain, and you bought it. But go and check for yourself. Be a scientist for once and go and check your facts.

I’ve been more than charitable in replying to your silly circular arguments, but I think that I’m spent. I’m putting this post here so that perhaps some more balanced peoples can see this and realize that the Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox/Catholics, Mar Thomites, and the MISC, and nothing but plain old Puthenkoor, following a rite that is *NEW* in India. Get comfortable with that fact, because it’s the truth.

Jacob :

if i am not mistaken, you once mentioned that Sundeep Thamarapally was your nephew. how did you not come to know about KANAIM DNA project when you are such a close relative? have you asked him since about any of the results? i heard he was tested as an L1 could you provide some details if that is possible?

Dear Jacob Kuruvilla,

You have commented that Nestorianism originated after the Council of Ephesus in AD 430. It was in the Council of Ephesus that Nestorianism was condemned. Nestorius and his arguments were accepted by even the Church of Antioch until AD 431. In the Council, the Patriarch of Antioch and Rabulla, the Bishop of Edessa joined the Patriarch of Alexandria and Roma and anathematised Nestorius (who was the Patriarch of Constantinople) and his teachings. Actually, the Church of the East did not attend this council due to political reasons but the disciples of Nestorius relocated to Persia and the Persian church accepted those teachings.- Persian empire was in war with the Roman Empire and considered the Christendom of Roman Empire- Rome, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople- as enemies.

Almost all the authors now agree that the Church of Saint Thomas was connected to the Church of Babylon prior to the Portuguese. The available history is very clear from AD 1498 when the delegation of Saint Thomas Christians going to Babylon to see the Patriarch of the Church of the East for bringing Bishops to Malabar. They did not go to Antioch. Since then, we have clear evidence of continuous arrival of Bishops from the Church of the East and Chaldean Church.

We all know that whoever argues about connection to the Patriarch of Antioch agrees that the connection was through Persia. It is true that the Church of Persia and East Syrian church were under the Patriarchate of Antioch in the beginning. But, they on their own was a particular church, not part of the Church of Antioch.. But later, due to political reasons or theological reasons, Church of the East became independent in AD 410.

Even when the Church of the East was under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Antioch, they had a unique liturgy that developed by Mar Addai and Mar Mari, the disciples of Saint Thomas who founded the Churches in Edessa and Babylon. Anaphora of Addai and Mari is the oldest Christian liturgy in use anywhere in the world.( William Darlymple, From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East (New York : Henry Holt & Co., 1997), 141.)We know that so far we haven’t found a single evidence for any other liturgies other than East Syrian from Kerala prior to Portuguese. Have we got any names of the Bishops who arrived from West Syriac rite prior to Portuguese?

Independence of the Church of the East.

Synod of Isaac in AD 410 declared the Bishop of Seleucia Ctesiphon as Catholicos and Chief of all Christians of the orient. This was a national organisation of the church depending on their rite.

AD 424 Synod of Dadeeso declared autonomy and decided Western fathers should not be consulted for contraversies. This in effect made the Catholicos as a Patriarch. This decision was taken in the background of political conflict between western Roman empire and the Persian empire at the time. Hence, they did not participate any more Councils in the Roman Empire, including Council of Ephesus in AD 431 and Chalcidon in AD 451.

AD 428- Nestorian Controversy. Antiochian church was also supportive of Nestorius.

AD 431 Council of Ephesus- Antioch also anathematised Nestorius. Rabulla, the Bishop of Edessa, also supported the Council of Ephesus. But the pupils of the School of Edessa, the fathers of Persian church kept the Nestorian principles and the Sassanian Empire also supported them on political grounds against the Christendom of the Western Roman Empire.

AD 451 Council of Chalcedon- The Patriarcate of Antioch splits on Monophysitism. The monophysites became the Syriac Orthodox and the rest of the section of Patriarchate of Antioch joined with Alexandria, Rome and Jerusalem – the Chalcedonian churches. This section of Patriarchate of Antioch became the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.

This Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate sent missionaries to Persia- Jacob Bardeus organises those minority in Persia who were not in favour of Nestorianism. AD 628-629 Bishop Marutha was consecrated by the Syrian Patriarch Athanasius Gamolo for these Christians with Tagrith as his seat. They became a church in communion with the Syrian Patriarch of Antioch with West Syriac rite. This seems a conversion of some East Syriac rite Christians to West Syriac rite. It is not a split in the East Syriac rite. Thus, the Syriac Orthodox became the ‘Puthencoor’ in Babylon also.

Jacobite Church and Patriarcate of Antioch.

From AD 628-629 period Jacobite Church came into existence. So, the Antiochian Church at the time of the so called Thomas of Cana is entirely different from the present day Jacobite- Antiochian Church which is only one of the five Patriarcal churches claim the succession of the old Patriarchate of Antioch. After the Council of Chalcedon, the Chalcedonian and non Chalcidonian parties of the Church of Antioch had a long struggle for the Patriarcate. In AD 512, the non Chacedonians( Jacobites) convened a Synod on their own in Sidon and replaced the Patriarch Flavian II who was a Chalcedonian with Severus, a non Chalcedonian. Both continued as Patriarchs and eventually, the non chalcedonians under Severus established a rival church and became the Syrian Orthodox Church- Oriental orthodoxy. They had to move from Antioch to many places and now, their head quarters is in Damascus.

I am very curious to know the arguments E M Philip and Mar Ivanios put forward to prove that the Pre Portuguese Church of Saint Thomas was connected to the Patriarch of Antioch ? Obviously, many do not have access to these books and articles and as you have read them, why don’t you share with us. It will be a good learning opportunity to all in here.

‘Jacobian taksa brought by Thomas kana is kept in Kottayam Valiyapalli’ !!! Are you serious ??

‘There existed a church with supremacy of Patriarch of Antioch existed before the Roman Catholics which started after the Portugese arrived’.
As per the available documentation, the Church of Saint Thomas’ Christians remembered the name of Mar Simon, the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch in the Qurbana not the Patriarch of Antioch. Before the Chaldean schism, it is possible that we remembered the East Syriac Patriarch. Are there any evidence to show that we ever named the Patriarch of Antioch to remember in the Holy Liturgy?

RE: Antony’s statement: “They became a church in communion with the Syrian Patriarch of Antioch with West Syriac rite. This seems a conversion of some East Syriac rite Christians to West Syriac rite. It is not a split in the East Syriac rite. Thus, the Syriac Orthodox became the ‘Puthencoor’ in Babylon also.”

I think we need to be clear about one thing. The “West Syriac rite” is not exactly the original Greek Rite of Antioch.

After the split in the Antiochian Patriarchate between the Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians (the latter being the Jacobites), the latter took their old Greek rite, translated it to Syriac, and also appropriated many of the existing Syriac liturgical material that was from the Mesopotamian Church (the latter being the Church of the East).

So in places like Mosul and the “East” (the “East” for Jacobites meaning western Persia, since they never really penetrated into the far East such as India and China), the rites were a hybridization of the existing East Syriac traditions (i.e., from the Hudra) with new material (e.g., the copious liturgies from the Western Syriac Church, perhaps translated from Greek) added.

So they were not Puthenkoor in Babylon to the same degree that my people are Puthenkoor in India. In India there was a wholesale move, in full, from the original East Syriac (and latter latinized) rites to the West Syriac rite. While in the Eastern “Madhenhoyo” branch of the Syriac Orthodox Church, they made an attempt to hybridize and take from their ancestral East Syriac rite.

As well, many of the Jacobites in Persia came their via immigration as well, so they didn’t really convert, they just moved.

Just a minor point to explain that in India, the Puthenkoor are “Puthen” in the strongest of terms. They are unlike the Madhenhoyo Jacobites who retained their old traditions, to the extent that the Jacobites of Mosul, Tikrit, etc, have a slightly different liturgical calendar, and a very *long* liturgical corpus (longer than that of the Tur Abdin center of the Jacobite Church, and longer than Malabar which just copied the TurAbdin “Western” West Syriac rite).

All of this can be found in Patr. Aprem Barsoum’s works that are available online, as well as from other sources on the West Syriac rite.

Then we can talk about the Maronites (who were non-Chalcedonian and non-non-Chalcedonian, but rather represented another supposed “heresy”, until they came into communion with Rome) … who illustrate another form of this blending that occurred, this time with more East Syriac in it.

The point is that unlike the East Syriac rite, the West Syriac rite is a hybrid rite. Now, I personally admire the beauty of the West Syriac rite (which is why I remain a Jacobite, despite the *puthen* rite), and like its hybrid attributes. But at the same time, I’m unwilling to lie about it, to claim that its Syriac form is the most ancient form of the rite. No, it has antecedents in both the Greek rite and the older East Syriac rite. But oldest or not, it’s still a very beautiful, expansive rite — one that was brought to India by the Jacobite fathers in the 17th century.

Any FYI Jacob: the Jacobite fathers in the 17th century were not maintainers of endogamy. Some of them had brothers, nephews who intermarried with Indians. You may have heard of Parumala Mor Gregorios. whose ancestor was an Assyrian/Aramean. Same with a current Mar Thomite bishop and a family Tholanikunnel. There may be others as well.

Endogamy is a feature of Judaism, however …

John Mathew:

Only one church existed before the Chalcedon (Kalkidon) Council when it split into 3. This church was established

bySt.Peter at Antioch and St.Peter was the first Patriarch. The establishment of the Antioch church is marked as an important event and is marked as a one of the listed perunals in Catholic Church. The language which Jesus Christ spoke is Syriac and so also the desciples. It is the oldest language. Syriac was spoken in Iraque, Mesopotamia(Jessica) and Syria.
No doubt St.Paul Knew Greek and he wrote the gospel in Greek which was then translated into Syriac.
There are so many thaksas and oldest and the longest is Jacob’s Thaksa. The compilation of all the thaksas and their copies (many translated into Malayalam) is now available in all churches of the Syrian Orthodox churches and being used. The originals are in Syriac and Syriac scholars have translated them into Malayalam. In the early days the texts were all handwritten copies since printing did not exist during that period. In fact the Holy Bible used by the early Christians was in Syriac. There are records that Mar Dynesius I ( Mar thoma 6th) (1971) presented a manuscript of Syriac Bible to Rev.Buchanan a Protestant missionary who visited Malankara. This bible which was in use for 1000 years is being exhibited in British museum.
You will agree that languages undergo influences by several factors such as the rulers, sociological etc. and Syriac is no exception to this. In India Hindi is influenced by Urdu and Persian. There are several words in Hindi borrowed from these languages. English has several words of Sanskrit origin. Eg. Pundit. However, the basic structure of any text does not change by inclusion of words from other language. The theksas are in Syriac language and rites were all in Syriac language till recently no matter there are a few Greek words due to reasons mentioned above. This is not the first time I am hearing that the theksa of Antioch is Greek, the dress and the cap o Antiochen bishops are Greek etc. I have heard it from none other than the present Konat achen in a public meeting organized by the Orthodox Syrian Church at M.D.Seminary. The Konat malpans of earlier generation were all Syriac scholars and strong allegiance to Patriarch of Antioch. The present Konat Achen has now opportunistically defected and now despises the Patriarch of Antioch. You know very well that Syrian Orthodox Church is named so because originally the rites are all in Syriac language. If the rites are in Greek the name should have been” Greek Orthodox”. I have already mentioned that the original Syrian Antioch Church existed ever since St.Peter .
There have been several Antioch Patriarchs originated from time to time. Even last year one Antiochean Patriarch called Kurghan was consecrated. After a few centuries I hope that somebody like you will not come with the theory that this is the original Patriarch. History gets distorted in this manner. The Patriarch of Antioch if from different countries with different mother tongues. For eg. The present Patriarch Zakka I is from Iraq and his mother tongue is Arabic but the church is universal and the church has Syriac in all its original texts. You mentioned about Sebastian Brock. You will be enlightened about the Syriac (Aramaic is a version of Syriac) heritage of Syrian orthodox church if you read the book “The hidden Perl:Syrian Orthodox Church and its Aramaic Heritage edited by Brock Sebastian and David,G.K. Brock is a recipient of the St. Ephrem medal for his outstanding contributions from the Patriarch of Antioch.
When one consider the age of a church one has take into account of the establishment of the church and not merely the age of the physical structure of the church building. In the beginning the holy sacraments were conducted in ramshackle temporary shelters for want of adequate resources. Kottayam Valiapally as you see it today is built about 500 years ago. It is silly to believe that before the construction of the present building the establishment of the church was non existent. Even there were no Bishops after the first Bishop Mar Joseph who came with first immigrants. This is due to difficulties in sea travel persecution and several other factors. Some of the bishops sent by the Patriach were even assassinated. In the absence of Bishops Alkathokians( Senior priest appointed for the purpose) used to do the functions of the bishops.
Your comments about missioneries as “too dull” is highly uncharitable and you claim you are charitable.
The missioneries have done invaluable service to the society in the field of education healthcare etc although they drew large number of people to Protestanism. The oldest college in India C.M.S.College, Kottayam was started by them the where great people studied, including K.R.Narayana, former president, two supreme court judges and several other luminaries.
The first English to Malayalam dictionary and first translation of English Bible to Malayalam was done by Rev.Gundert.
The first printing press was first started by the missioneries and the copy of the first Malayalam bible printed in this press is available in this press even now. Using words is nobody’s monopoly. But usage of such words in forums like this deserves condemnation and passages with such words may land in garbage bin.
Jacob Kuruvilla

Jacob,

This is tiring. If you don’t even know the sources of the liturgy of Saint James, then you’re sorely misinformed and need to learn more. From what you write it seems you’ve absorbed all of the idiotic arguments and counter-arguments put forth by pseudo-scholars out of Kerala on this topic, all of whom have an angle.

Forget that. Go and learn for yourself from liturgical scholars about what’s the origin of the West Syriac Rite. The oldest texts of the rite are in Greek; all of the West Syriac sources are of a latter date. If there was an Aramaic original, then that no longer exists.

The point is that the Syriac Orthodox Church comes from the Church of Antioch, and the Church of Antioch was Greek. Greek was the intellectual language of the Roman East and West, not Syriac. The vast bulk of the Fathers (the Cappadocian Fathers, etc.) wrote in Greek. Syriac was the language of the Mesopotamian Church in the Persian Empire — but that Church became the Church of the East. The Syriac Orthodox Church was an ethnic rebellion (ostensibly sparked by Chalcedon) against the Greek intelligentsia that the peasantry felt was too foreign. So they took the Greek rites and they translated it, and added to it the great literature produced by the independent Mesopotamian Church.

This is well documented. If you’d only shut up and just read some actual scholarly work on the subject you’d see this.

The Buchanan Bible was likely brought to Kerala by the post-17th century Jacobite fathers. That’s what Sebastian Brock writes, and since he’s a scholar unlikely to be swayed by this idiotic propaganda out of India — AND because he’s actually examined the text and has the expertise in Syriac to give an authoritative view — I’m likely to accept his version over the writings of a man such as yourself that is mired in the mud of Indian pseudo-historical distortion.

Regarding the missionaries … many were good like Rev. Gundert. And many were pure idiots like Buchanan. And others like Peet were responsible for the further butchering of the Puthenkoor into the heterodox Mar Thomites and the proper orthodox, the needless destruction of old relics from our past, the butchering of our peoples old traditions, etc. You can praise them if you will, but you seem to have a highly limited understanding of many things so I doubt anyone would take stock in your ignorant assessments.

john do you know of any friction between Nasranis and the black Jews? i was just wondering because Southists seem to have a long history of conflict with the Northists.

Joseph,

Yes, Jornada seems to indicate that the Nasranis and the Black Jews had some violent conflicts back in the days of Archbp. Menezes.

kezheken,

could u provide some information about this comment by jackson from a long time ago: Post : 14994

@ John Mathew

You keep saying ‘Puthenkoor’ , ‘Puthenkoor’ ,’Puthenkoor’ …. What is the oldness left with the Pazahyakoor ????. A throughly latinized church claims oldness of what???? Liturgy

Until Pulikottil Dionysius I, the Malankara church was following the old East Syrian liturgy(roughly 200 years before). Historians here claim that, we are labelled ‘new’ because we followed the West Syrian liturgy. Same time the Syro Malabarian bros were being latinzed…. with latin heads to rule them…

Manthu ullavan athu puzhthivechchu manthane mantha ennu vilikunna pole..

History has evolved over a long period of time and cannot be created overnight. No history is 100% perfect and there may be loop holes here and there. Neo historians try to get entry through the loop holes and grope with the fervent hope of creating new histories by burying the existing histories under the earth and the archeologist have to recover them back. The strategy of these new history creators is to consistently and adamantly tread the same beaten track using the terminologies and verbose that is rarely understood by the present generation and unacceptable in well moderated forum. They consistently use blinkers in both the eyes and follow deviant tracks when there is enough light in the straight path. This reminds me what Oliver Goldsmith said “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”.
With this I conclude.

There is no conclusions of dna testing for any particular area unless we have a huge collection of samples. but some matching can take in to consideration. i believe regarless of dna matter we can feel the sense of semitism and features make sense to me and that is a clue for me does not matter someone agree with we or not. some thoughts i want to write is that we are ofcouse and indian christian community. so i believe st thomas found us. so i dont think we can really replace an idea of brahimn did not convert or not. i may think there can be gentile part among us. but one think i aganist some people really want to hold on to the truth that st thomas converted a huge population of brahimns and many others in to christiantiy so they think if they change the christianity to hindism it jsut the same converted hindu people as SOME NATIONALIST THINK….. There can be few brahimns or families & some few other converted along with lot of jewsh merchants or isralites and immigratins……. nasranis seems to consdier as a precious gifted thoughts that they are these artistic beautiflul brahimns converts. because westasians may not have a life beauty. yet they had a deseartish civilized culture. or these westasisn jumped eathing meat yet we all consider there is nothing wrong with that. the important point is NONE OF CANNOT EXCEMPT WITH THE FACT OF NOT BEING SEMITICS AS JEWS OR ISRALITES. because we are mixed with heritage the majority of semitics in our community regardless of ydna matter…………. more that we think dna matter ” ok let leave a nasranis to a pulaya may be the reason he may look more like that. if he ever got a drop of semitic blood he has that passion of being biblical. even if he reject leading gentlile life it will trace him. even if he live like a messy life, one day rependance to god will trace him’. and that is the MAIN CLUE. i truely belive 100% semitic or jewish blood among nasranis along these traditon hindu converts and none of them really cannot give a definations on many of actual realities

George:

“Thoroughly latinized”? What are you talking about? They still use the East Syriac liturgy! Yes, the SMC has certain latinizations, but they are not *thoroughly* latinized.

The Pazhayakoor consists of two parties, the SMC and the CoE in India (improperly called the “Chaldeans”). Both use the East Syriac rite, with the latter using it in the original pre-Chaldean, pre-Latinized form, and the former using it but with some small mods to make it compatible with the teachings of the RC. Either way, both are of the old rite.

The Puthenkoor, on the other hand, as of today uses purely the new rite of Antioch, the West Syriac rite. Nothing remains of the old East Syriac rite in the MOC/MJC.

And all parties had and have foreign rulers, with the exception of the MOC which declared itself autocephalous.

1a. The prehistoric East Syriac Church of all our ancestors was ruled from West Asia, with no evidence of local prelates, and absolutely no non-Syriac/non-Persian leaders.

1b. The modern Kaldaya of India: ditto, ruled by a local Metran, answering to Chicago.

2. The Chaldeans (the ancestors of the SMC): ditto, ruled from Babylon, answering to Rome.

3. The post-Chaldean SMC: ditto, ruled by a local Archbishop, answering to Rome.

4. The Syriac Orthodox Church (Puthenkoor): ditto, ruled by a local Metran (now Maphrian/Catholicos), answering to Damascus.

What’s your point? All koors (except the newly-formed Malankara Orthodox Church) are ruled by foreigners. Only the Pazhayakoor (regardless of ruler) uses the old rite.

The terms are very accurate, despite the immature protests by Puthenkoor apologists.

What oldness is left in the Malankara Churches of the West Syriac rite? New rites, new songs, new prayers, new vestments, new Greek names, etc. Nothing — not *one* shred — old at all. The SMC, despite their leadership and their minor latinizations (which they are resisting, and which they are encouraged to resist by Rome itself, which views the latinization of Malabar as an unfortunate occurence), use the *OLD* rite.

Dear John,

“The Pazhayakoor consists of two parties, the SMC and the CoE in India (improperly called the “Chaldeans”). Both use the East Syriac rite, with the latter using it in the original pre-Chaldean, pre-Latinized form, and the former using it but with some small mods to make it compatible with the teachings of the RC. Either way, both are of the old rite”

The Liturgy of the Church of the East before the Chaldean schism in AD 1552 seems to be the real Pazhaya –old liturgy used by all in Middle East and India- (The Church of the East, The Chaldean Church, both in the middle East and the Syro Malabar and the Chaldean church- Church of the East in India).

In AD 1552, John Sulaqa and his party revolted against the Al Qosh Patriarchate against the hereditary Patriarchal succession and went in communion with the Roman Catholic Church and was consecrated as the Patriarch of the Chaldeans in AD 1553.This communion lasted for about 120 years. But this had little effect on the liturgy. ( William Macomber) John Sulaqa was murdered by the Turks and the second Patriarch Mar Abdisho sent Joseph Sulaqa, the brother of John Sulaqa to Malabar with the simpler form of the East Syrian liturgy. This was the one that was latinised by the Portuguese. Syro Malabar faithfuls and Clergy continued their struggle to reinstate their original rite and in 1960, the Syro Malabar Church under the instruction of the Rome adopted a rite which returned to the original traditions. This created differences in opinion among the then SMC Bishops and in 1968, in the name of the reforms of Vatican Council II, restored some of the latin practices which were suppressed in 1960 version and introduced some more on the inspiration of Vatican council II. This was the point where some of the SMC dioceses started celebrating the Qurbana facing the people. The people for restoration continued their efforts and in 1998, the 1960 version was revived and Pope John Paul II inaugurated and concelebrated the restored liturgy at Kottayam.

In the Middle East, both the CoE and the Chaldean church used nearly the same rite and liturgy. In 1672, another minor schism happened in the CoE where Mar Joseph I got recognition from Rome as the Patriarch of Diyarbakir and the then Diyarbakir Patriarch revolted against Rome and continued as a separate Patriarchate at Cochanis. Joseph I did not make any changes to the liturgy, but his successor Joseph II who was trained in Rome and was a latiniser and latinised the liturgy.

Then the traditional Patriarchate at Al Qosh became Catholic under the leadership of John Hormizdas in 1804 and Al Qosh and Diyarbakir united together. (Cochanis remained the only group that is not in communion with Rome). Hormezdaz’s second successor, Joseph VI Audo who was trained in Diyarberkir Patriarchate made efforts in propagating the latinised form of liturgy of Joseph II but that was not successful. Abdisho V Khayyat 1894-1899 made some reforms but there were opposition from Diyarbakir group. Next Patriarch Emmanuel II Thomas 1900-1947 compromised and preserved some latin and some maronite forms from the rite of Diyarbakir but remained substantially faithful to the Alqosh rite. But the narration of institution was not outside the anaphoras as done in Syro Malabar, but in a plausible position within the anaphora. After the liturgical reforms of the Roman rite in Vatican Council II, the Chaldeans were also inspired to initiate latinisation but this was much more modest and discreet than that of Syro Malabar.

Meanwhile, the Rival Cochanis Patriarchs- (the Sulaqa Patriarchate who revolted with Rome in 1672 when Joseph I was recognised by Rome as Chaldean Patriarch- now became the Nestorian Patriarchs after having 120 years of communion with Rome) continued their rite as close to AlQosh rite, but had some influence of Catholics- the Lazarists and then by the influence of Anglicans reformed the rite by the mass beginning with the sign of cross, later the Russians influenced and persuaded many to accept the orthodox dogma and to adopt at least the anaphora of John Chrysostom after translating into Syriac.

.

Now, all the splinter groups of the erstwhile Church of the east reformed their rites on different influences at different periods-

1 The Nestorians- Latinisations of their 120 years of communion with Roman Church, influence of Anglican church and influence of Russian Orthodox.

2 The Chaldean Catholics with the influence of Al Qosh union, reverted many of the latinisations of Joseph II of Diyarbakir but compromised to preserve some elements of latinisations and Maronitism.

3 Syro Malabar Church- undergone latinisations but reverted back in 1960. According to William Macomber, the 1960 version of the Syro Malabar liturgy is the most faithful version to the Church of the East Liturgy prior to the Chaldean Schism.

Okay — I stand corrected, but my point (in response to 24655) remains: the Pazhayakoor label affixed to the SMC and the “Chaldeans” of Malabar is very accurate, as is the Puthenkoor label that is affixed to the Jacobite/Orthodox.

I’m interested in Macomber’s observation … it seems that Fr. Varghese of Denaha has been engaged in an effort to bring back the old rites in their full form (Hudra, etc) to the SMC (not just the Qurbana, that was done in the 60s, but the full suite of prayers that constitute the East Syriac rite). I thought that was a sign that the reversion of the SMC liturgical corpus back to their original state was incomplete. If that’s the case, how can Macomber be correct? Moreover, I thought the basis of the SMC’s official liturgical system was that of the Chaldeans of Babylon — this was based on some comments in Fr. V’s texts. I don’t see how the pre-chism CoE could be the basis of the modern SMC liturgy, when the pre-schism CoE was not considered to be completely orthodox by the RC.

Just curious.

Dear Jacob Kuruvilla

>>>Read the M.A.Thesis of Fr.P.T.Geevarghese- Malankara Sabha was Jacobian- This is backed up by proper evidences and references of published literature.>>

I think you have never read this book published by .P.T.Geevarghese. What are those evidences ? Have you ever examined his sources ?. P.T.Geevarghese was never known as a historian.

I am not interested in wasting my time blabbing about Jacobite connection before the 17th century. If there are any worthwhile evidences it could been the headlines. I am also experienced with these kind of Southist farting when they don’t have anything to talk about their history.

>>>Then give evidence for the washerwomen story of Thomas of Cana>>

It is there in a sixteenth century document. The Southists are concubines is something which is reported in 16th century. What are the evidence for your stories ? Can you tell me what was the story line before Chazhikaden promulgated his theory ?

>>>First study your own lineage at least of preceding few generation before casting aspersions on others who lived several centuries ago.>>>

You are not a bait to through this. What does you have to offer to teach a Kunnamkulam Christian his lineage. Pothens know their history very well. Pothens know their names for more than 12 generations. How far a southist can go ? All your loose story doesn’t stand any critical examination. Even the name you are verdantly known these days, Knanaya is only two decades old. You who have no evidences, yet ignorant and makes all the herculean claims with zero shame.

Dear Jacob Kuruvila, Joseph and other Thekkumbhagar friends,

Any opinions ( non emotional) about this thesis: This is from a person neither southist nor northist. The PhD thesis by Kerstin Neumann from Rotenburg / Fulda presented in Marburg, in August 1998 is entitled ‘Moon God Siva and sacred Thomas -The religious community of the Knanaya in Kerala’ for the award of Doctor of Theology, The Department of Evangelical Theology,Philipps-Universität Marburg.

http://archiv.ub.uni-marburg.de/diss/z2000/0392/

The work was funded by Ecumenical Council of Churches in Geneva, the German federal government and the academics of the Evangelical Church of Kurhessen and Waldeck. There are many earlier posts about this thesis. It exposes many of the Southists claims. Anyone up for a discussion on this ?

DNA Testing >>>> What are the Southists trying to achieve by hiding the DNA test results ? You still break many families shamelessly for the endogamy for safeguarding the Chazhikadan theory. How can people be so cruel and still hide the results ?

PS- Southists seems to be only interested in shouting about their Jewish lineage claims only from their roof tops. Kerstin Neumann mentioned in the thesis that Southists were looking forward for flag of david and that they could not find one. I have one to offer in case if they need !!!!

Hi All,

A small correction on the L haplogroup comments going around for a while. I think I had corrected the erratic wannabes here earlier. Let me repeat….. And as also confirmed by the Project Admin of the Syrian Christian DNA project.

1. The Malabari/Black Jew (forgive the terminologies I’m using) in the project who has been tested as L (L1) haplogroup matches a NORTHIST L1 sample and NOT a Southist L1 sample. Clear everyone?? And this is an EXACT L1 match between the Northist and the Jew, on 12 markers tested, indicating a genetic relatedness. Keep this in mind and then proceed creating stories henceforth. So a genetic link between L haplogroup, Black Jews and Southists also is eliminated at this stage.

2. There exists a L1 tested Southist in the database who is a close match with a guy from Lebanon. Yes. If someone cannot digest this, so be it. Get some digestives for yourself may be? This also doesnt mean Knas are Lebanese in origin. Similarly L3 is *common* in regions of Pakistan and rare in India anywhere. That said, that doesn’t make Knas Pakistanis if they show L3! Northists also have L3. It just mean L hgp links various scattered groups of people from the fertile crescent to South India. So… no stories here either.

3. J2a4c is by almost all means middle-eastern or west asian in ‘origin’. It has been so far observed in a latest research paper largely among Jewish communities, Druze and rarely in India (I’m not aware exactly who in India tested for J2a4c besides the Northist sample). J2a4h=Confirmed Cohens

4. R1 haplogroup: Of primarily Eurasian origin (except East Asian). Commonly found in Middle-east and less frequently South Asia (of originally Central Asian contribution). Central Asia is believed to be its place of origin from where it split into R1a (found in eastern europeans, south asians of central asian origins, indo-europeans, etc) and R1b (found in many western europeans). Also present in other continents (like native americans as well). So by itself speaks nothing. Test all the markers and autosomal dna if interested. No further comments possible.

MOST IMPORTANT: STOP making stupid senseless comments on matters that need scientific approach. Also let the project handlers (Not me anyway) and people who know Science and SPECIFICALLY GENETICS deal with it and help u explain the meanings as much as possible.

Also, stop listening to people who firstly are NOT qualified to comment on or have no basic ABCD knowledge or education in a particular area. Y-search hits, google, wikipedia, blah blah. This is THEIR (Hopefully we all know whom this points to) source of “information”. So get a life, educate yourself if you are that interested in genetics and dna and then come and comment. Or u might have to correct and recorrect yourself and admit your stupid erroneous wannabe “self-research” a thousand times.

I hope its loud and clear to those “Y-search Genetic gurus” out there?! Its just pathetic and not funny. And others might try not to encourage their moronic atrocities by debating when they propose nonsense. All results of the DNA project have been provided wherever relevant on various threads on this forum. So many thanks to the misinterpretors. NO HELP NEEDED!

If someone still feels they are qualified enough to blabber and get away with it, please let us hear your so-called qualifications in Science and understanding in genetics/biotech. Then we might reach a consensus and listen. Atleast I call such qualified individuals to step forward and claim. If not, just shut your face henceforth. Again, u know whom Im pointing to!

Any further clarifications, contact the DNA project Admin, Mr. Jacob if anything sounds unbelievable or hard to understand. Any genuine explanations, I have already given. Any help needed to locate old posts on this forum that comment elaborately on the project results and its meanings, please contact this forum’s admin. I’m sure he wud help b4 u jump to conclusions without reading things that have already been discussed.

Finally, Genetic studies are not for superiority claims or mud-slinging. I dont know how being something makes one superior or inferior. Its a tool to unravel history and support traditions or see it in a new light which otherwise was not known.

Thanks. Shalom, Shlama!

Jackson

Easo pothen: I do not understand why you keep posting a link to that “Moon God Siva and sacred Thomas -The religious community of the Knanaya in Kerala”. most of us have already read this and the contents of this PhD thesis have already been discussed on this forum. I also do not understand why you keep reiterating a “non emotional” response from the Southists. The only emotional people i have seen on this forum are you and that Timmy Philip kid. The hate you have for the Southist community can be clearly seen multiple times in your posts. many on this forum share this kind of distaste, mostly due to encounters with boastful Southists, if it is that irritating and disrespectful to Northists then i will apologize on behalf of my community for their behavior. But unlike the others Easo takes it to the level of name calling and ridiculing by using such immature phrases such as: “Southist farting”, “chicken” and “coward”. I would imagine an “expert historian/ geneticist” like yourself to use much more eloquent language. Take your hate somewhere else instead of misinforming others with your biased inputs.

Jackson: Thank you for clarifying in a mature unbiased manner. hopefully NCS networks very own “Y search specialist” kezhekken will stop providing his misinterpreted research that is a product of his hate and half minded knowledge of genetics. He has already misinformed many into thinking that Southists DNA is “clearly” South Indian. Once a Gujarati who has been tested in haplogroup L3 commented on this forum advising us that it may not be wise to classify our L3 as South Indian or Indian since he is clustering with middle eastern populations more than the rest of the Gujarati community. Others suggested that we should not make any conclusions on DNA based on a limited amount of genetic data. Hopefully these warnings will be acknowledged in the Future.

>> I do not understand why you keep posting a link to that “Moon God Siva and sacred Thomas -The religious community of the Knanaya in Kerala”. >>

Is this irritating ? If so, am sorry that i can’t help with your problem. This Ph.D thesis clearly paints the clandestine activities of the Jacobite and Catholic Southists scientists. I have earlier posted what Kerstin Neumann himself has to say about this. There are many critical remarks, of which i am interested to hear Southist opinions. I have not seen any Southist opinion on those. I am just trying to see what their take on these points mentioned by Kerstin Neumann. Why won’t you divert your irritation to the remarks of Mr. Kerstin Neumann, so that people interested in the Southist topic would be benefited by opinions of a Southist on this very interesting Phd thesis.

In addition i now have a personal interest in this matter. The Thesis says Southists are in a search for the flag of david. I think i can help them in their eternal search.

>> keep reiterating a “non emotional” response from the Southists>>

Simply as i mean “non emotional”. As mentioned, am only interested in your opinion about the remarks of Kerstin Neumann. You are being carried away by emotions and giving lectures on hatred and so and so. There is a difference between a bigot and boastful person. The kind of remarks and claims made by most of the Southists in this forum has been nothing less than shameless bigotry. They are not Chickens without a reason. There is no intention to answer any queries on Southists, neither does they try to provide some insights in their history other than throwing the Chazhikadan spam. Why dont you try to give some lessons on hatred to the fellow southists, for the kind of racist and hatrednes they bear to others and themselves ( for the sake of endogamy) in their forums.

For now, if possible share your opinions on the critical remarks of Kerstin Neumann.

>>instead of misinforming others with your biased inputs>> Could you please correct those biased inputs i have made so that those misinformed wont miss the chance to get corrected ? What are those inputs ?

>> DNA – “misinformed many into thinking that Southists DNA is “clearly” South Indian>> What is that you are trying to say ? Kezhekken’s statements were with proff accessible to anyone for scrutiny. Did their ( those mentioned in the post) results change ? What is there more to inform, with a hidden DNA project ? I hope in next decade the Tamil Kurumans wont start calling themselves Knanaya II .

@ John Mathew

Somewhere in this site itself, I have read that the terms Pazhaya/Puthen were attributed after the Church split into two, and also have read the same in various catholic articles.

The West Syrianisation started somewhere at the start of the 19th century ( or late 18th century) Also people here thoroughly assert that, the term was introduced because of the association with the rites each picked.

We never picked, the Antiochean Rite, immediately after the split to be called *Puthen* then.

The points am making are

1. If these terms were used prior to the late 18th century, then the assertion that terms were attributed to the rites followed is very loose. ( or these terms would have evolved recently)

2. If at all, they were in use prior to the late 18th century, they would have been attributed to something else then. (Used as something derisive by one group to beset the other)

Both of the groups, the one with a new leader and Latin influenced Old customs and one with Old leader and West Syrian New customs are technically new.

If the argument, hovers upon who kept the East Syrian practices alive, they are the oldies, then the conduct of the present day oldies are close to pathetic.

All my visits to SMC churches provided more Latin vista rather than any closeness to any semitic tradition. (Not revealing more as it may not be apt in this forum)

Reiterating what, I said before, People who have no botheration towards the East Syriac Litugy claims oldness of what? A peek into the various SMC churches provides no hope to at least project any ancientness. East Syriac identity is in books and nowhere devotedly practiced.

George Joseph is absolutely right about the Knanaya nonsense of “purity” claims. Great posting, George!

I am a Kna (Southist), but it has never ceased to baffle me how these Knananites could be so certain about their delusional claims when not one of them can backtrack their own lineage a mere 3 generations, let alone be so self-assured about their “untainted” lineage from AD 345!

And the funniest thing about their volatile fact-challenged bloated egos is that they have this Caucasian image about being “Jewish”, when their own story of the assemblage of 72 families who boarded the boat should just as easily have had members from the Middle Eastern Bedouin tribes that display predominant African physical attributes, not to mention further admix of Dravidian and a host of other local/Indian DNA traits. They see this reflected back in their mirrors and yet, their delusions of grandeur affix themselves to the royal lineage of King David not realizing that this “king” was no more than a herdsman! And, most likely of Bedouin descent!

History is what it is: a “story”, and as such, often confabulated and embellished. When Christians and Muslims have engaged in the childish game of book-burning to destory and undermine true power – KNOWLEDGE – what we are left with are crumbs from which we reconstitute breads of a thousand splendrous things! If the fallacy of WMD led to the invasion of Iraq less than a decade ago, how much more falsified is history written from the vantage of the victors over the ever-shifting sand dunes of time?!?

And, while at this, how about pre-Roman Church father St. Clement of Alexandria’s 2nd-century letter addressed to a colleague named Theodore asking for suppression of the information of Jesus’ marriage to Mary Magdelene? This letter also chose to condemn the Carpocrations (founded by Carpocrates) ” who were NOT followers of the Pauline doctrines as later adopted by Rome, but inspired by the teachings of Mary Magdalene, Martha of Bethany and their mission colleague Salome” (Laurence Gardner, p.40 – The Grail Enigma – The Hidden Heirs of Jesus and Mary Magdalene).

This is the “Secret Gospel” that the Church has sought to eliminate!

If such is “divine” history, what redemptive value can we give to human history?!?

“Similarly L3 is *common* in regions of Pakistan and rare in India anywhere”
Are you aware of any sample of L with DYS385a =7?
L3 is found in Pakistan and surroundings, but with DYS385a =9. There are a whole lot of them.

“J2a4c is by almost all means middle-eastern or west asian in ‘origin’. It has been so far observed in a latest research paper largely among Jewish communities, Druze and rarely in India (I’m not aware exactly who in India tested for J2a4c besides the Northist sample). J2a4h=Confirmed Cohens”
J2a4c and J2a4h are different. Where have you found J2a4c among Jews? J2a4h is common among Jews, Tunisians, Arabs, Italians etc. J2a4c on the other hand is extremely rare.
J2a4h is also found in Pakistan. 57965 in FTDNA and possibly others.

“There exists a L1 tested Southist in the database who is a close match with a guy from Lebanon”
Okay. Are there any closer or equally close Indian matches outside our(Northist+Southist) community? This also should be seen. Otherwise, this statement will get misinterpreted. Please share the IDs of the Southist and Lebanese.

Thanks,
Kezhakken

Kezhakken,

On the Nasrani J2a4h: Yes, our ‘J2a4h’s are Cohen J2a4h. And not “any J2a4h”. Now u might want to research how a Cohen sequence is said from a non-Cohen. I am not going to break head on basics again! Sorry.

My source for the J2a4c comments:
“Extended Y chromosome haplotypes resolve multiple and unique lineages of the Jewish priesthood”
Michael F. Hammer · Doron M. Behar · Tatiana M. Karafet · Fernando L. Mendez ·Brian Hallmark · Tamar Erez · Lev A. Zhivotovsky · Saharon Rosset · Karl Skorecki, Hum Genet (2009) 126:707–717

For your additional information the above guys have a total of sixteen J2a4c tested samples in their database, profiled as follows:
Ashkenazi Jew (Cohen) 1 sample
Azerbaijan Jew (Israelite) 4 samples
Indian Jew (Israelite) 1 sample
Iranian Jew (Israelite) 1
Sephardi Jew (Israelite) 1
N. African Jew (Israelite) 1
Indian non-Jew 2
Druze 5

So in the above study alone, atleast 9 of the 16 J2a4c men are Jewish men. 5 others are Druze (Iraqis). 2 Indian non-Jews (I exactly dont know what caste/religious affiliation are they).

On the L1 issue: On this issue I would kindly like you to contact the Syrian Xian Project Admin and ask your queries yourself. I am not an authority on any level to go around distributing people’s IDs and names or their Y-search matches and results in detail. There is something called CONFIDENTIALITY and PRIVACY in Genetic testings if u didn’t know. So yes, please do the needful yourself. I cannot help with what u asked on.

On the L3 issue:
I stated: “Similarly L3 is *common* in regions of Pakistan and rare in India anywhere”
I think u dont need to read beyond what is written. L3 is commonly seen in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and that region. And rarely in India too. Yes, the former group of people have DYS385a = 9 and Nasrani L3 samples (Northist and Southist) have DYS385a = 7. So? Whats so strange?

Explanation – L3 haplotype in the L haplogroup family is defined by a mutation M357. It also has 385a value typically less than 10… So that means it can be 9 or 8 or 7. No Big Deal. It just means there are clusters within L3 family. So those with DYS385a=9 cluster together, those with 7 cluster together, and so on. These are just indicators of a split within descendents of L3 to form separate, distinct but related clusters/branches in timeline. This explanation goes for all haplogroups, haplotypes. modals, clusters, etc. That is how u determine the timeline of relatedness within a haplogroup. So Nasrani ‘L3′s and middle-eastern ‘L3′s including Pakistani ‘L3′s had related ancestors who were L3 but their founder ancestor carried different repeats and passed the same to their descendent branching communities who became distinct ethinc groups later. So at this stage it appears an L3 man had further two more deletions from his L3 cousin who had 9 repeats on DYS385a. And this L3 man with 7 repeats on 385a gave rise to descendents who joined the Nasrani community splitting from other L3 brothers of his to form DISTINCT YET RELATED CLUSTERS within the L3 family! Simple to understand now? These are basics and this is how u read genetic results and not by sensationalising it.

Deletion, substitution, addition are such terms in mutations in base pairs in a parent sequence. Nothing sensational about it. This helps in detecting migration patterns, relatedness/unrelatedness, splits in the family/ancestral tree, timeline, etc. The trunk remains the same. Only branches go out and spread with each having its own length, thickness, etc. Hope the above helped and will continue to help everyone henceforth. This is what I can explain.

Thanks

Jackson

Jackson,

Thanks for the information on J2a4c.

“And this L3 man with 7 repeats on 385a gave rise to descendents who joined the Nasrani community splitting from other L3 brothers of his to form DISTINCT YET RELATED CLUSTERS within the L3 family!”
I completely agree to this. My point is that, L3 with 385a=7 is quite rare as far as my knowledge goes. I could not find any such result in FTDNA (wherever I could search) outside our group. But I could find such cases(L3 with 385a=7) in YHRD (not Ysearch) and those belonged to samples from Tamil Nadu, Sri Lanka and Malaysia/Singapore. None from anywhere west of Tamil Nadu.
Doesn’t this make our L3 closer to these from YHRD than the Pakistani L3? Our L3 is related to the one that is found in Pakistan but isn’t it much more closer to the YHRD ones from Tamil Nadu, Sri Lanka and Malaysia/Singapore?

thanks,
Kezhakken

George:

Let’s talk about today: then you must agree that the terminology is apt, the users of the East Syriac rite are the “old” and the users of the West Syriac rite are the “new”. There should be no argument here.

Let’s look at the 17th century, right when the community split between the followers of the Pope and the followers of the archdeacon, with both using the East Syriac rite. Then I agree the situation is unclear. Why? Because in the century immediately preceding the split, the Malabar Church was a hybrid Church variously following the Chaldean Church (i.e., the CoE in communion with Rome, and ultimately headed by the Pope) and the Church of the East (self-headed), depending on which bishop from West Asia happened to be present in India at the time (ref: srite project). So the Pazhayakoor were still technically following an older allegiance—i.e., the Pope, which due to the Chaldean connection of the 15th century was still an older mode of governance than the innovation of the self-headed Archdeaconate of “Mar Thoma I”, who was not canonically ordained until the arrival of Mor Greg. Abdul Jaleel.

Now, lets look at the period after Mor Gregorios Abdul Jaleel came. Then it is likely that the rite of the Puthenkoor became hybridized with some Catholic elements, some East Syriac elements, and some Jacobite elements. Certainly by the arrival of Mor Baselios and Mor Ivanios the shift to the West Syriac rite started, as we have Teksos of Mor Jacob dated from that time. Now that, and the subsequent Antiochianization of the Puthenkoor was totally new.

I think that many SMC members would agree with you that some parishes of the SMC definitely follow a more “Latin” aesthetic than the Puthenkoor. And to most of the Puthenkoor who still maintain a very Oriental ethos, this may make the Pazhayakoor to look like the products of Latin missionaries. Certainly when I see a beardless celibate priest, that’s what I think, not to mention the beardless bishops of the SMC with non-Oriental names. In fact, I thought the SMC was “Syro” in name only, judging by all my friends who were “Syrian Catholic” in North America, but who knew nothing of Syriac nor the East Syriac rite. I thought the East Syriac rite in India was dead, until I made a trip to India and visited a SMC Church and saw a Syriac icon. That started a long process of enlightenment in which I was shocked and happy to learn that the SMC were actually an Eastern Rite Church. Something I never thought judging by my father’s friends who are priests of the SMC, but who adopted the Latin Rite in order to serve in America.

But regardless of all this, we have to recognize that, despite this confused ethos of the SMC, which is the product of their close connections with Latin missionaries (who benefited the Church in many ways), at their core they follow a far older liturgical system than us. And we should respect that, and we should hope — with many of the SMC folks who similarly hope — that one day the SMC will be able to return to its Oriental roots in full. That the work of the LRC and Denaha will continue and spread. That the idiotic minority in that Church that clamor for the abandonment of their Oriental traditions (claiming, idiotically, the Pahlavi Cross to be a “Manichaean Cross”) will finally decide to leave (like the Mar Thomites left the Puthenkoor) and that the Church can fully follow the Old Rite, not only in liturgy but also in ethos. That would be a good thing for Christianity in India in general.

If you look at the work of people like Fr. Varghese of Denaha services, and at the majority of SMC people who contribute to this site (the Admin is SMC, I believe) you’ll see that this pro-Oriental faction of the SMC is immense and that they truly deserve the term of Pazhayakoor.

(Contrast that with the idiotic alignment of the Puthenkoor towards Protestantism — due mainly to sour grapes at the success of the Catholics, it seems — in which the Puthenkoor are slowly creeping away in to an abyss of a new rite and a new, plastic aesthetic that is very far from what our ancestors followed.)

Dear John,

Re your post dated 15 Nov 2010.

I did not say that the SMC liturgy is based on pre schism CoE Liturgy.

What I said was, among the splinter groups of the pre 1552 Church of the East, all have modified their liturgy. Among them, the 1960 version of SMC liturgy is one of the most faithful to the Pre 1552 CoE liturgy- that of AlQosh Patriarcate.

As I have mentioned, the Al Qosh and Diyarbakir Patriarcates switched their allegiance, the initial Chaldeans became CoE after 120 years of Roman Church communion while the original Al Qosh became Catholic in AD 1804. So, both were in communion with Rome and both had undergone latinisations.

During John Sulaqa’s period, there wasn’t much latinisations, but they had to modify the liturgy. Much latinisation happened in 1672 schism, during the time of Joseph II who was latin trained. When AlQosh joined Catholic communion, these two groups joined and they had to have some compromise and had to adopt some Latinisms.

In India, we had latinisations in the liturgy by Menesis and Roz, but the 1960 version went back very close to the pre 1552 CoE liturgy- Al Qosh version, according to William Macomber’s studies. I do not know exactly what was the original source of it, but as I am aware, it was the work of eminet Scholar and liturgist Rev Dr Placid Podipara, who is considered as the Father of Modern Syro Malabar Church, with the support of Cardinal Eugene Tisserant who was a lover of Eastern Christianity and a scholar of Syriac.

Willaim Macomber also observes that the present day CoE liturgy is also polluted with Latin, Anglican and even Russian Orthodox elements.

My point was, there is no church today which follows the real Pazhaya rite. All have changed.

As you have mentioned, SMC’s reversal back to original is still not complete. It is ongoing. Scholars like Fr Varghese Pathikulangara are engaged in reviving the old traditions. He has recently published the Liturgy of Hours for early morning- Qala d-Sharha, midmorning-third hour liturgy of 9 o clock-Qutha-aa, mid day- Enthana, 9th hour liturgy of 3 o clock-besides the Sapra and Ramsa which were available before completing all the seven liturgies of different hours. There is another section in SMC which is engaged in the so called Modernisation or Reformation but actually they are knowingly or unknowingly just imitating the Latin church.

So, in the present day SMC, you can see both extremes- those who follow real East Syriac rite and Syro Latinisms- which confuses some observers.

Re. terminology Pazhayacoor and Puthencoor, a good explanation is given by M Kurian Thomas in his book on Niranaom Grandhavay- those who created a new affiliation from what was existed before- Puthencoor- new coor and those who left under the status quo- pazhayacoor- old coor.( M Kurian Thomas, Niranam Grandhavary, Padhanavum Samsodhanavum- (Niranam Chrinicles, A study and Analysis), Sophia Books Kottayam p 30.

If you look at the terminology on that particular time period’s perspective- after 100+ years of communion with Roman Church through the Chaldean prelates, changing the affiliation was considered as puthencoor. Later developments justified that terminology as John has mentioned, by adopting the new rite.

Kezhakken,

What I mean by clustering is “forming a cluster” based on not just one STR value. Well, as per ftDNA a cluster is grouped corresponding to one notable STR value. So according to those definitions, yes as u said the Nasrani ‘L3′s FOR DYS385a = 7 form a cluster together. This DOES NOT mean ethnic or near ancestral relatedness. Remember we are looking for “nearness” in timeline and NOT nearness in individual STR values by themselves.

385a is one of the most highly mutable markers and can range anywhere between 7-28 repeats. Therefore it is not a reliable marker by itself to predict a person’s ethnic/familial relatdness to another, even if both have same STR repeats on this marker. If there is a genetic distance of more than 2 between two tested samples by matching tools available there is a very good chance they are absolutely unrelated by descent THOUGH haplogroup is the same.

Look at ALL the values together (set of markers, 12/25/37 whatever) and look at the genetic distance for degree of relatedness beyond STR repeat value of any single marker on its own.

So as u said the Nasrani L3/L1/whichever haplogroup will be related to another person’s if:

1. Genetic distance is 2 or less. More than this, it is irrelevant.

2. Look at slow mutating markers (there are a few of them which are more important when it comes to cases of clustering like these)

3. Look at SNPs

4. Look at the whole marker sequence (which the genetic distance calculator anyway does and says). So is the GD a very important indicator.

And the above set of indiators may be added to for further relatedness testing. I am not aware for more details as it is required in only cases of family disputes, etc. The above are basic and preliminary to draw possible conclusions.

So what is the GD between the Nasrani L3 samples and other samples from various regions on comparison? If 2 or less than 2 your interpretations may be correct wrt “high degree of ancestral relatedness in timeline.” Complicated ye? I find it complicated atleast, haven studied genetics rigourously for 5 years. So its not a surprise I still find my knowledge incomplete to draw conclusions so easy as newer and better tools become updated every other day in genetics.

Thanks

easo pothen: You keep saying that southists never respond to any of the questions about their history. perhaps the reason is because their are not many on this forum at all its mostly just me and Jacob kurivilla, in addition to that you never actually pose specific questions, all you do is post a link to the document and ask for responses. kerstin nuemans criticism has already been discussed on this forum such as southists claiming of jewish decent as being late in origin, lack of documented evidence for the existence of the southists community, lack of certain Jewish customs, about the corruption and propaganda that has been spreading because of knanaya “scientists” who distort history and because of the clergy who support such intentions…etc…etc. and also do not expect a unified response from all southists, most of us have individual opinions and our ideas vary. i am not irritated by your posting of the thesis, as a matter of fact i like this work on the southist community but i am annoyed by the fact that you keep acting as if we are unwilling to talk or respond to your questions when you are not providing any specific questions at all.

And in rare cases, though the GD may be 1 or less but such samples have no historicity of near connection by traditions, family, geography, migration links, community links, etc even vaguely then this also becomes irrelevant because such a low GD indicates nearness in timeline relatedness and if the other indicators I mentioned have no relation then its too vague.

So therefore u must read the whole picture of all the above indicators together then, to make interpretations and NOT JUST genetic haplogroup results independently. History goes with science and vice-versa and NOT independently.

Hope that helped for your future curiosity in genealogy genetics! Keep it going, keep it updating and adding value. There is no ‘full stop’ fortunately or unfortunately in this area of science atleast.

Jackson,

“Look at ALL the values together”

I checked for the Southist result 83541(FTDNA) in YHRD for the following markers

DYS393=12
DYS390=22
DYS19=15
DYS391=10
DYS385=7,16
DYS439=11
DYS389i=13
DYS389ii=29
DYS392=14

(I could not search in YHRD for the following as the option is not available.
426=11
388=12 )

For the 10 markers, *exact* match with

2 Tamil Nadu, India [Kuruman] East Asian – Dravidian Asia
2 Maharashtra, India [Mahadev Koli] Eurasian – Indian Asia
2 Singapore [Indian] Eurasian – Indian Asia
1 Sri Lanka [Sri Lankan] East Asian – Dravidian Asia

With the given results, I can check for two more markers for 83541(FTDNA)

437=16
448=19

Guess what, *exact* match with
2 Maharashtra, India [Mahadev Koli] Eurasian – Indian Asia
1 Sri Lanka [Sri Lankan] East Asian – Dravidian Asia

The 2 Kuruman and 1 Singapore(Indian) results do not have these markers tested and are showing up in YHRD as -1. The distance with the pending Singapore(Indian) result is 1.

The distance between 83541(FTDNA) and other DYS385a=7 samples is either 1 or 2.

Doesn’t this show that the Southist results are much closer (as in a more recent common ancestor) towards Kuruman/Koli/Singapore-Indian than Pakistani L3?.

“I find it complicated atleast, haven studied genetics rigourously for 5 years”

I do not remember how, but I did know that you have a background in biotechnology.

thanks,
Kezhakken

Dear All, Recently I read a book entitled “The Antiquities of Knaanaya Syrian Christians” written in Malayalam by Shri. Chandy Andrews. The book is the result of 40 years of study in the subject by the author loaded with lots source materials and references.
I wish the discussants in this forum read it to get to know who Knaananites are and it will help in these discussions
I am giving below excerpt from this book for your perusal:
The Knaananites, a denomination of the Syrian Christians of Kerala have certainly a very rich and glittering past.
They are descendants of the seventy two families from the land of Canaan settled in Kerala in A.D 345 under the leadership of merchant chief Knaanai Thoma. Even though Christianity originated in India in A.D 52 by St.Thomas Apostle these settlers helped a long way in kindling and promoting the true faith just after Mar Thoma.
The names Knaanaai Thoma or in short Knaai Thoma and Thomas Knonoyo in Syriac are identical.
The surname Knonoyo can also be seen along with St.Simon Apostle if we look at the Syriac Bible (Mathew 10:4 &Mark 3:18). St.Simon was a freedom fighter among Jews before association with Jesus Christ and thus the surname “Canaan freedom fighter” or in Syriac “Knonoyo” bestowed upon him.
Knaanai Thoma was successor of the sect of St.Simon. So the descendants of Knaai Thoma, that is, Knaananites of Kerala have the Apostolic patrimony right down from St.Simon Apostle. They are true St.Simon Christians.
I am not aware of any such book written on any other sect of Syrian Christians after an exhaustive study.
I would appreciate if any one let me know any such book for me to understand.

E.M.Philip

Anah:

E.M.Phillip wanted to make it look like the Knanaya were from the Patriarchate of Antioch, since that was the political position of E.M. Phillip — as a Jacobite he wanted to forge such a connection, and demolish the old East Syriac links.

Any Pazhayakoor (East Syriac) Southist (i.e., the *majority* of Southists) would contradict this fiction, since the East Syriac Southists claim connections with the East Syriac Church — which was not of St Peter but of St Thomas.

This fiction is so thin, it’s comical.

I agree that the Southists certainly have an interesting history; if only the feeble-minded story writers who write such easy-dismantled fiction (as above) would cease their propagandizing, we’d all actually learn what that interesting history is.

As a starting point, let’s look at the wedding songs of the Southists and their oldest customs, which are their earliest artifacts and point to a Jewish origin, not a Syrian Christian one. What does your book speak of in that regard.

John Mathew:
I have read Chandy Andrews” book without knowing anything about the Knanaya community although I have many friends from that community. But my friends never boast of the uniqueness of their community although they are proud of it. When I tell them that some people refer to them as “Charamketty” most of them only simply laugh and do not care about it. Youngsters of the present generation do not even understand that. Some of the senior members I heard telling that Non Knananites call them such names out of jelousy but that was old story and that Knanayism is by and large is an accepted fact and people now acknowledge this fact and I think we should leave it at that .
You have not answered my question. Is their any comprehensive book on any of the sects of Syrian Christian tracing their origin as the Knananites for me to share with my friends.
You have to read Chandy Andrews’ book. The logic and precision of that book has impressed me and I don’t think it a book which you desribed without even reading it. My experience with people of this community is that they are friendly, helpfull and informal except that they are unwilling to get into marriage alliance with our community

Anah:

You mentioned an except from EM Phillip, and I commented on that except. My comment was not directed at the Southists in general. In fact, Southists from the SyroMalabar Church wouldn’t even agree with what EM Phillip wrote since he was a partisan Jacobite.

You’ve never seen any book on the Nasranis?

You can go through the articles on this website, which are actually very high quality and freely available. You can then look at:
1) the work of George Menacherry (who produced an encyclopaedia on the Nasranis)
2) the work of Fr. Varghese of Denaha Services
3) Leslie Brown’s text
4) Alphonse Mingana’s text on the Christians of St Thomas in India
5) Jornada
6) various works by English missionaries on the topic (many were ignorant of Eastern Christianity and that shines through, but you’ll find a kernel of truth in there as well)

Despite the AD 52 claims and the AD 345 claims, you should note that the only real hard evidence on Christians in India, Northist or Southist, goes back to the 6th-8th century, and that’s the Persian Crosses. Any other “old” date you heard of are likely made up.

John Mathew:
Yesterday I had the opportunity to hear a talk by Prof.Robert Eisenmann, Scholar, historian and Archeologist
From California,U.S.A. He has written the book “Dead Sea Schrolls the result of his studies in the actual site where the
Schroll were discovered. The talk was very informative and he have a first hand information of several historical aspects
Of the different sects of people, religious sects and groups in the whole region. Incidentally, Mr.Chandy Andrews who
Wrote the book” Antiquities of Knanaya Syrian Christians ” about which I referred in my previous post happened to be there
Who participated in the interactions. I could get the impression that most of the things Mr.Andrews wrote in his book were
in the same line of what Eisemann spoke. Eisemann confirmed the existence of Knanaya who are in otherwords Zeolotes
(freedom fighters against Romans) and their place of origin is Edessa(Uraha). This was really an eye opener for me.
Therefore, I don’t agree with your view that the book of Mr.Andrews is a fiction.

Anah:

If there was conclusive evidence that the Southists could be linked with the Zealots of Palestine, that would be great: let’s see it though. So far, I’ve seen nothing; if you have something good, share it rather than just alluding to it. Could you provide a better excerpt from the book, other than the silly excerpt of the 19th century fiction of EM Philip? EM Phillip’s text (that you quoted) is useless propaganda by the Puthenkoor.

What’s the evidence that Eisenmann provides? Just saying that he “confirmed” something, doesn’t say much. How did he confirm it? Any solid links, artifacts, archeological findings, etc? Did he come up with some old Southist documents? What’s your standard before accepting something?

I ask because I’ve read a lot of idiotic things in the past by so-called scholars; for example, Katz talked about the similarity between the velvet caps of Southist priests and that worn by Jews and used that as “evidence”. However, Katz didn’t know that the Southist Jacobites used velvet caps because they were Jacobites — *all* Jacobites use those caps. That like saying that (a) Jews use toilets, (b) I use toilets, hence (c) I’m a Jew. Please! Are you that dull? By that argument I could saw all Jacobites are Jews because they all use the same cap, the kiss of peace, etc. Yet Katz is viewed as a “scholar” by some. Which goes to show you that calling oneself a scholar doesn’t mean anything. Show me the substance.

So, in trying to come up with evidence you need to grow up a little, and ask what the evidence actually is as opposed to saying “Well, person X is a genius, hence everything he says is Gospel truth.” That’s moronic and useless. If your evidence is just some offhand anecdote from an individual who knows very little about all the peripheral topics (e.g., as Katz, above, who knew nothing about general West Asian Syriac Christianity) then perhaps the evidence is questionable.

I said the excerpt you provided by EM Phillip was fiction. I’ve not seen Chandy’s work, and so can’t comment on it. But perhaps you can provide a better excerpt that we can examine. What you’ve provided so far is trivia that could be easily dismantled by people who have a better grasp of history that you.

George Mathew: in post 24290 above you state that Kollam Nasranis are of Ephraim, while Muziris/Palayur is of Judah.

Could you please tell us how you arrived at this? What is this based on? I suspect that there is a major division in our people based on these centers and so am actually very interested in what you may have to say.

Thanks.

Dear John Mathew,

I normally don’t do drafts of what I have to say. But for this ‘Kollam Nazerenes’ as being ‘Ephraim Nazerenes’ and Muzuri/Parur Nazerenes being ‘Judha Nazerenes’, I will need to work on it, so as to make it clearer. I have been deep into this subject for the last 1 year and prior to this, I was ignorant of this division or classification. Let me please have some time and I will work on it and try for all to make them understand what I am saying. Ofcourse, I do not expect full agreement or even partial agreement.

I have discussed/debated this matter in the Orkut forum ‘Nasrani Judeo-Christians’. The gist is that ‘Ephraim’ was considered lost forever until recently. Even recently, many Western Christians claim that they are Ephraim. I take the stand that Ephraim is CoE, Jacobite and Chaldean Church of the Middle East and related. Ephraim was never lost as James 1:1 is written to the 12 tribes and Esho is Matthew says first to go to the lost sheep of Israel (Ephraim and Judha(?) and then later after his ressurrection commands his disciples to go to ‘Jerusalem, Jews, Samaria and to the end of the earth..’ This clearlyl shows that Esho and his disciples never lost Ephraim. You and me had lost Ephraim, though they were right amongst us (even our cousins, uncles etc..). Our perception was so skewed up, that we became blind. Will write in detail later.

Sure George, take your time. I’m curious but can wait.

By the way, it can’t just be Ephraim and Judah; you yourself are proof of that. If you and the others do indeed posses the Cohen Modal Haplogroup (confirm?), then that would establish the presence of *Levi* in Malabar (as you know, Cohens are supposedly the descendants of Aaron, and hence Levi).

There is a lot of background to be read and understood if our subject matter is to be correctly understood. What I propose writing, is original and not taken from any sources. It is my own inference and interpretation.

I do not know (in humility) at what level of understanding my readers would be. I am expecting a communciation gap. I depend a lot on the Scripture and give credit to Dr. Asahel Grant. I have discussed Dr. A. Grant’s book with some well informed people and the feedback is positive. They respect the book and I know that you have not much respect for Dr. Asahel Grant.

The Scripture tells us that Israel (post Solomon) is also known as Ephraim (Naphthali, Dan, Asher, Mannasseh etc..) and Judha (post Solomon) is the tribe of Judha, Benjamin and Levi. The Levites (lower order assistants to the Cohens/priests) and the Cohens stood with lineage of King David and were and are called Jews/Judhains.

I do not promise a scholastic article, but promise to put forward a very different perspective of our heritage which has never been told. I have been very heavily into this Netzarim heritage for the last 10 years. It will be very useful if you can meanwhile familiarize with the prophecy of the ‘Two Sticks’ by Ezekiel. Also by Isaiah and the other great prophets. To alienate me further from the mainstream, I have now fully rejected for very sound reasons the Evolution concept (full or part contribution) in our creation.

I am now fully standing by the literal interpretation of Genesis 1 to 11. Fortunately, I have good understanding and support from our Calgary parish Achen and some truly educated members/freinds. If not for this vital support, I would have gone bonkers.

I will be saying that Ephraim Nazerene (Kollam guys) and Judha Nazerene (Muzuri guys) will make the trip back to Israel our homeland for we are Israel, the physical seed of Jacob.

Dear All:
“The arrival of Knai Thoma and his followers gave a fillip to
the converted Christians……”

The above passage is from the official Travancore Manual notification released
From the British Resident in the year 1904. (Ref: St.Thomas Christian
Enzyclopedia of India ed: George Menachery.)
I attended a meeting convened by Kerala Council of Historical
Research at Thiruvananthapuram yesterday. Dr.P.J.Cherian, Director of the
Council stated that Kerala had a poor history of conserving the historical artifacts
And documents. State( ruler) sponsored religions are known to demolish the
existing evidences such as artifacts, documents etc. in order to draw people to
new faith and create new history. Look at what has happened in Afghanistan.
The last of the Bamian statue of Lord Buddha was demolished by the Taliban
About 15 years ago. There is no trace of Buddhism in Afghanistan now.
The same thing might have happened in Kerala during the Portugese time.
Many of the artifacts and documents have been lost. That being the case,
Only circumstantial evidence traditions, belief etc. are vital for historians
To arrive at logical conclusions.
Most of the church leaders strongly believe in the contributions
Of Knanaya in the Syrian Christian Church of Malankara and needless for me
elaborate them here. Regarding the ethnic purity, though the practice strict
endemic culture of marriage now which is closely monitored by the church
system, in olden days there might have been marriages from native Christians.
But these are only few cases which has resulted in poor documentation in those
Days. For that matter no race is poor.
The Knananites are very clear about their history and lineage.
But some new history come with new theories about Knanayism. I call them
Conjuctorians and not historians. They are all undivided in their theories.
My bottom line is that but for the arrival of Knai Thoma and
His followers the course of church history in Malankara would have been
Different. This may be a hard fact for the conjectorians to believe.

RE: the pot calling the kettle black.

Abraham Phillip: one who lives in a glass house shouldn’t run his mouth too quickly.

You call the opponents of the 100 year old “Knanaya” (as opposed to Southist) myth “conjectorians”. That’s rich. Show me one piece of actual evidence that justifies the Southist story that they came in the 4th century with Thomas of Cana.

Nothing exists.

There is evidence that suggests Jewish connections, however. But *ZERO* that suggests any connections to Syrian Christian immigrations.

The Nasranis, on the other hand, possess the oldest copper plate chappads, that clearly illustrate that some of their forefathers were Persians/Arameans/Assyrians who came in the 9th century to Kollam.

Try to do some actual background checks before you spout conjecture.

The vast majority of Puthenkoor Church leaders have trivial academic qualifications; hence, anything silliness that they believe is meaningless. One need only look for evidence to see how baseless most Kerala Christian theories (Northist and Southist) really are.

And the recent fabricated history of the Southists (care of a Jacobite bishop in the last century is so recent and so devoid of antiquity that one must question how can anyone really take that to be the truth.

Dear abraham, Living aboard with multicultural people, we get to see many people like spanish, arabs east europeans. east africans, iranians, etc etc. we hang around with these people everyday basis . We can understand more thing than some one only lived in one place. I used to be like that. If some ordinary mullus dont even have 6 feet and traditions ravanan looking mastash and umbrella stomach want to claim we are the orginal people came from this place and that place which local influece on them. i mean i would say its over. The north india parsi community i search in google image, does not matter how long ago they come to india they have a distant look from rest of indian. Oviously they have rich in skintone height weight features that proves it. Look cochin jewish woman Sarah Cohen google image . If knanaya are looking like that then we can give credits to those claims. i dont know what special among knanayas to become seperate from nasranis and i see nothing special on them. If i could find a suryani look on a normal nasrani that may be similar to these knans. I believe as a whole nasrani community , yes there is middleastern immigration and features which i don’t want to repeat the previous paragraph and proofs and they are mixed among nasrani communities and living as good christians as far as i can see it.

John Mathew:
Gone through the St.Thomas Christian Enzyclopedia of India edited by George Menacherry the author
suggested by you. In this book I have seen a gaztette notification released by the British Resident. The notification is
issued by G.T.Mackensi under the advice of Peshkar and acknowledgement of several experts of that time.
This is what I read ( only part). After a few decades of Thomas the Appostle in 342 A.D the merchant Knai Thoma with
72 families of his followers came from Baghdad, Nineva and Jerusalem. The group consisted of a Bishop and decons.
The arrival of this group gave a fillip to the Christians converted from Hindus by the apostle already existing. The earlier
were speaking Malayalam and they were called Pillays. The new settlers were give special preveleges by the ruler.
Regarding Eisenmann, I don’t think he is the type of scholar who makes statemensts without proper
evidence. I have not made any statement from E.M.Philip’s book though I started but did not continue. You said that
Chandy Andrew’s book is fiction without even reading it. This type of preconceived notion about men and matters
And viewing things with prejudice will only lower your credibility.

Anah:

Did I say Chandy’s work was fiction, or did I say the myths you referred to (EM Phillip, the one century old “Knanaya” story concocted by various authors in India) were fiction?

You apparent illiteracy is worse than my apparent prejudice.

Look, believe what you want, I don’t care. I’m just saying that we don’t have ONE shred of evidence to say ANYTHING about Malabar Christianity before the 6th Century. Did you read that correctly? Yes, the 6th century. Anything anyone says about Malabar prior to the 6th century including:
1. the AD 52 date of St Thomas’ arrival in India (Northist myths)
2. the various “Fourth Century” churches of India (Northist myths)
3. the AD 345 date about the immigration of Thomas of Cana (newly created Southist myths)

NONE of the above are worth anything. The earliest statement about Malabar that conclusively identifies Malabar is the report of Cosmas in the 6th century. That is where *HISTORY* — the kind of history that can be defended in a logical argument — begins.

There is not one piece of archeological or literary evidence that supports the AD 52 date, the AD 345 date, or any other date pre-6th century.

So: when I say people are writing fiction, there is solid basis to that. Anyone who claims a date prior to the 6th century is certainly written fiction because there is NO evidence, as of today, that indicates any historical event in Malabar concerning the Christians and Jews that predates the 6th century.

Get this straight you illiterate moron: I’m not just criticizing the “Knanaya” story, I’m also criticizing any Nasrani story (Northist, Southist, anyone) that tries to back date history to before the 6th century. It just can’t be done, because there’s no evidence.

Now, Anah, since you’re an expert on this Chandy’s book, how about you say something useful: what archeological evidence or what literature does he cite to back up the AD 345 story. Does he have a copper plate that he discovered? Any Syriac MSS from that era? Anything? Or is he like the bulk of Indian Church Historian monkeys who merely cites previous authors, without digging down further into the source? If he’s the latter, then I will categorically state right now for the record that I, on my name, certify Chandy’s book to be fiction, and worthless as a historical source.

However, if he has some archeological evidence, a copper plate, a manuscript (MSS), *ANYTHING* of that nature, then I will purchase the book and read it.

That’s my bar, Anah. If someone just writes and cites a previous author then that is useless.

Also, take note: Alphone Mingana and Assemani — real Syriac scholars — as well as the bulk of the English scholars in the 19th century dates Thomas of Cana to the 8th century or so.

So it is far from clear as to where the AD 345 date is accurate. EM Phillip couldn’t even stand in the same shadow as an Assemani or a Mingana. So even if I wanted to play the silly unscholarly game of merely citing previous authors as opposed to hard evidence, I’d defeat you: you’d cite the minor writer EM Phillip, while I’d cite Assemani and Mingana.

If you really want to start arguing and debating these matters, you’d better grow up a few decades, and sharpen you’re intellect because right now you’re about as sharp as a dull spoon.

Mr.John Mathew:
I separated the chaff from the grain and got two pieces of grain in your post namely:
1. Year of landing of St.Thomas 52 A.D ?
2. Year of landing of Knai Thoma 345 A.D ?
If the landing of St.Thomas around 52A.D( plus or minus a few years) is not accepted the landing itself is not accepted.
In otherwords it is a “either both or none phenomenon”. Anybody who is not a moron will agree with me on this.

The Travancore State gazette official notification on Knanaya community issued by British Resident which refers
The year 345 A.D was published in the year 19004. E.M.Philip’s book was published later on. Therefore, your presumption
that the year 345 is a fiction of E.M.Philip is wrong.
Cosmas visited Malabar in the year 522 A.D and he has written in his travelogue that there exited a Christian religion
At the time of his visit. So you have to correct the ‘6th century” century utterance.

You depend only on artifacts and mss for ascertaing the history. St.Thomas Christianity and
Knanayism sustained for all these centuries due to collective wisdom of millions of members and not merely on
artifacts.
Thus I find inaccuracies in your post. Response, if any, should be focused and chaff may be avoided and
Still if it is there the same will be ignored.

Mr.John Mathew:
I separated the chaff from the grain and got two pieces of grain in your post namely:
1. Year of landing of St.Thomas 52 A.D ?
2. Year of landing of Knai Thoma 345 A.D ?
If the landing of St.Thomas around 52A.D( plus or minus a few years) is not accepted the landing itself is not accepted.
In otherwords it is a “either both or none phenomenon”. Anybody who is not a moron will agree with me on this.

The Travancore State gazette official notification on Knanaya community issued by British Resident which refers
The year 345 A.D was published in the year 19004. E.M.Philip’s book was published later on. Therefore, your presumption
that the year 345 is a fiction of E.M.Philip is wrong.
Cosmas visited Malabar in the year 522 A.D and he has written in his travelogue that there exited a Christian religion
At the time of his visit. So you have to correct the ‘6th century” century utterance.

You depend only on artifacts and mss for ascertaing the history. St.Thomas Christianity and
Knanayism sustained for all these centuries due to collective wisdom of millions of members and not merely on
artifacts.
Thus I find inaccuracies in your post. Response, if any, should be focused and chaff may be avoided and
Still if it is there the same will be ignored.

I know a knanaya man arguying and claiming by hijacking all the evidence with northist got. For example the copperplate and persian cross of mar sabor and mar aproth group. He was mentioning the king cheruman perumal the time exist on 9 th century immigration. and knanayas has muslim blood and luxurious marriage traditons.Since he was from kallada area which we think it more like the 9 th century families tends to settle these area like kollam, kallada, angamali etc.
Some one mentioned that there was knanaya thommen copperplate exist but it has been taken by protughesse or in a protughese church. what do we know abut these? One new knanaya claim i heard is that they not only came as a group but they came as different occpational group as cloth washing group, hair cutters, bussiness man, etc etc

Regrading AD 52 ST Thomas came and converted. One recent syrian christians research conduct Department of Medieval Studies István Perczel says that it can be either approve or disapprove but around 3rd or 4th century they have testomony of existance of christians in kerala.

Mr.John Mathew:
I separated the chaff from the grain and got two pieces of grain in your post namely:
1. Year of landing of St.Thomas 52 A.D ?
2. Year of landing of Knai Thoma 345 A.D ?
If the landing of St.Thomas around 52A.D( plus or minus a few years) is not accepted the landing itself is not accepted.
In otherwords it is a “either both or none phenomenon”. Anybody who is not a moron will agree with me on this.

The Travancore State gazette official notification on Knanaya community issued by British Resident which refers
The year 345 A.D was published in the year 19004. E.M.Philip’s book was published later on. Therefore, your presumption
that the year 345 is a fiction of E.M.Philip is wrong.
Cosmas visited Malabar in the year 522 A.D and he has written in his travelogue that there exited a Christian religion
At the time of his visit. So you have to correct the ‘6th century” century utterance.

You depend only on artifacts and mss for ascertaing the history. St.Thomas Christianity and
Knanayism sustained for all these centuries due to collective wisdom of millions of members and not merely on
artifacts.
Thus I find inaccuracies in your post. Response, if any, should be focused and chaff may be avoided and
Still if it is there the same will be ignored.

.

Cyril Abraham:
I am an Anthropologist associated with Anthropological Survey of India. I had the occasion to work with
Tribal people in various parts of India to study their habits psychology, practices etc. I would like to share my observation
With you and make a comment on your opinion that the immigrants who arrived Malankara along with Knai Thoma were
tribals. My observation is that transplantation of tribals from one geographical area to another is just too impossible. Tribals are
very much attached to their environment and avocation and their psyche will not allow them to get transplanted to another set
of environment and avocation. This is our observation in tribal areas throuout India and it may be the case in other geographical

areas as well. Therefore it is very unlikely that the followers of Knai Thoma who landed in Malankara are tribals. The people
who undertake such migration are likely to be highly motivated and progressive people. Without motivation such migration
is not likely to happen. Another possibility is extreme duress which may not be the reason in this case. This may be true in the case
of Parsees (Zoroastrians) who fled their country due the Muslim persecution. I strongly believe that Knai Thoma and his followers
immigrate out of motivation and adventurous spirit.

John Mathew:

I find a conflicting point with your Black Jew theory this is after i did a little research into the churches who are said to be originally built by Southists. Mulanthuruthy church’s southist origins were brought up by Jacob Kurivila, this was very intriguing to me because your theory gives a 15th/16th century origin for Southists as Christians.
But Mulanthuruthy church was said to be built somewhere between A.D 1100 to AD 1125. Kunnassery Kunchakko Tharakan (minister of the Waddakeenkoor Dynasties King of Kaduthuruthy) who was a Southists played a key role in the building of the church. If this is the case doesn’t that mean that their were Southists prior to the schism described in your theory?

Dear Joseph,

How confidently you can say that Mulanthuruthy church was founded in AD 1100-1125? Any documentations ?

Fr Jacob Kollamparampil, a prominent Southist Priest and historian wrote in Christian orient -
‘The Crosses were first brought to kaduthuruthy. Then they were removed to Kottayam,probably in AD 1550.In that year, in a battle at the island of vaduthala near vaikom, the Portuguese commander, Francesco Silveira de Menesis, helping the Cohin King’s army, killed the King of Vadakkunkur (Kaduthuruthy). The whole army of Vadakkunkur then formed itself into chaver squads and vowed to avenge the murder of their King by killing all Christians, the co religionists of the murderer.( C J Wicki, G Schurhammer) On that occasion, even the christian cheiftain of the family of Kunnacherry, who was one of the ministers of the murdered King, had to leave the Kingdom of vadakkunkur. He, with as many christians as he could gather, fled to Mulanthuruthy. He had taken with him the venthamudi now preserved at the Mulanthuruthy church which he himself caused to be built.’ ( Christian orient, March 1994, p32)

Now, it seems the Mulanthuruthy church was built by Kunnacherry chieftain and minister of Vadakkunkur in AD 1550. Could you please check your sources again and clarify ?

Joseph:

I wasn’t aware that the Church of Mulanthuruthy was a Southist Church.

But no matter — I strongly doubt that we possess *any* names of any of our people from the 12th century. So I would ask you to reconfirm whether the individual you mentioned as the founder of Mulanthuruthy was indeed from the 12th century or the 15/16th century.

Perhaps I’m wrong here, but I would be willing to bet cold hard cash that he was not from the 12th century.

Any information on how Mulanthuruthy became a Northist Church?

I can believe that Mulanthuruthy is a 12th century Church. That seems consistent with the apparent revival of the Nasranis due to the immigrant of the Persians to Kollam under Mar Sabor — many Churches stem from that era like Kayamkulam and Mavelikara. But I have a hard time believing that Kunnassery Kunchakko Tharakan is from the 12th century: we have barely decent records from the 15th century. Before that all we have are the copper plate grants to various Northist communities and to the Jews, and the Pahlavi Crosses.

But I’m open to new ideas. Jackson’s last post seems to refute my theory on genetic grounds: Black Jews and Southists seem to have some crucial differences. So perhaps the Southist’s ancestors weren’t “Black Jews”. But I do believe they were some form of Jew, given the marriage songs, etc — they certainly don’t seem to have a Syriac Christians (Nestorian or Jacobite) origin. And I believe that they arose closer to the 15/16th century, coincident with the emigration of Jews from Kodungalloor.

So if you can confirm the era of the character you mentioned, please do.

Joseph:

According to the history of the Church at Mulanthuruthy:
“This Church was founded and established in the 11th Century A.D, under the Holy Apostolic See of Antioch, and the Church was consecrated on 3rd Karkkidakkam (July),in between 1100-1125 A.D. The Church was modified in the 16th Century A.D. The carvings on the main door of the Church, made of granite, on which is inscribed in Syrian script, read as ʹʹthe door of the Mar Thoman Church was re-erected on 9th Thulam 1575 A.D.ʹʹ It is one of the ancient Churches in Kerala.”

Ignoring the idiotic comment about it being under Antioch from the 12th century, an obvious fabrication due to modern politics, it seems that the Church was built in the 12th, and then rebuilt in the 16th (according to an inscription on the Church). Now this makes more sense.

REF: http://www.mulanthuruthypally.com/history.html

What does Nazirutha mean?

Nazirutha is a Mandaic, or Aramaic-Hebrew, term meaning Nazorean Gnosis. Mandaic-Aramaic is an ancient middle eastern language once spoken by Yeshua, or Jesus, the Nazorean.

What is meant by “Nazorean gnosis”

Nazorean refers to the ancient people called the “Nazorayya”. The term means “people of the Truth” or “those with secret knowledge”. Gnosis is a Greek term which means personal acquaintance with the Truth. Nazorean Gnosis is then a system of enlightenment fostered by the Nazorean people.

Could somebody throw some light on this?
Did the Gnostic esseens of Egypt helped Joseph and Mary hide away from Herod?
The name “Nazrani” we also adorn. Are we also esseens?

As a reader, i see in many comments that having date problems. Some may confused AD345 could some form of date accourding to the indian traditonal calander may be.
i also heard about a christian group among syrian christians as angarakar or 5 1/2 group and claiming some specific group?

M Thomas Antony & John Mathew:

I don’t have any hard evidence regarding Mulanthuruthy churches origins. I asked for some information on the churches page on this website but the only answer i got was that Mulanthuruthy published a souvenir but obviously its a little hard for me to get my hands on any documents or local history about the church since i live half way across the world. well Jacob Kurrivila also mentioned in his post that the Palathunkal family (Northists i believe) of Mulanthuruthy can confirm that Southists originally built the church. So then i was able to find their family website and i think it says that Northists and Southists who fled Kaduthuruthy built the church together and i think the Southists like the Kunnassery family returned to Kaduthuruthy later because i know that they currently reside their. This website was the basis for my earlier post. Correct me if i am wrong.

the website is: http://palathunkalkurukoor.info/kudum.html

Dear E.Varghese,

‘Nazoroye’ may have more than one meaning, but Nazoroye are people mentioned in the book of Acts and they were Aramaic speaking Christians, mostly of Jewish background (Acts 6.1, Acts 24.5) as opposed to the name ‘Christians’ which originally meant Greek-speaking people who followed Christ. This cultural divide in our Christian faith was inherited from 1st century Judaism. In Judaism at that time, there were synagogues for Greek-speaking followers of Judaism and others for Aramaic-speaking followers. The same split communities which existed in early Christianity, persisted in Persian territory at least until the 5th century AD. We know this because in the Church synodal records from Persia written in Syriac, some Persain cities had two bishops, one for each linguistic community. In the Nazoroye communities, the services were in Syriac and in the Greek-Christian community the services were in Greek.

Best wishes,
Steven.

RP:

i think “anjarakar” or 5 1/2 people your referring to is “anjarapallikar” which means owners of five and a half churches. apparently this is another name for southists from the 15th/16th century when they owned five and a half churches.

Joseph:

Interesting.

However, my suspicion (again, I’m not claiming this to be truth, just my suspicion) is that the family got the dates wrong. They may have confused: 1) the original construction of the Church in the 12th century, with 2) the re-construction of part of the Church in the 16th century by the minister you mentioned.

This is just my opinion, based on the fact that pre-15th century Nasrani history is essentially a “dark age” with very little other than occasional observations. I strongly doubt that family you mentioned has records that goes back to the 12th. Most likely they were immigrants to Mulanthuruthy in the 16th century (probably with the folks Anthony mentioned in his post).

Just my suspicion, based on a long history of being disappointed with various “histories” which were written by people in the modern era, by taking old factoids, and embellishing them.

I hope you find some good info on the origins of the Southists. In my opinion, I think you’ll have to forego the family histories, and Church histories and probably do some fieldwork (or find people who have done so). Some definite possible things to explore are: 1) the clan names of the original southists which are preserved, 2) Kodungalloor, the ancestral home of the Southists.

Joseph,

Isn’t it an interesting parallel that the old name for the Jews (in the copper cheppads) was Anjuvannam—the fifth caste?

Perhaps this is nothing, just a coincidence. Or perhaps not.

Do you know what Churches exactly constituted the 5.5 churches? It would be interesting to cross this list with their purported construction dates.

John Mathew:

Yes the family probably just made a chronological error when putting together their history. I just thought it would be interesting to explore because i have a new found interest in individual church and family histories, although i know much of it is fragmented and unreliable.

The parallel between anjarapallikar and anjuvannam is also interesting. A few months back i received an email from “Americankna”( google group for Southists in north america) that highlighted the similarities between the Black Jews and Southists the email also made the parallel you described between “anjarapallikar” and “anjuvannam”. have you come across anything about the black jews being elevated over and given rights to 17 castes? because southist tradition holds that they were elevated over 17 castes by cheramar perumal. it seems even Southists are realizing the clear similarities between the two groups. i think Knanaya catholics are a little more interested in drawing parallels with Jews (i think because of conflicts with Rome) than the Knanaya Jacobites who are more content with a pseudo syrian christian (Antioch) origin (since Antioch allows them to form endogamous churches anywhere around the world).

and i believe the five and half churches that southist possessed were Udayamperroor, Kaduthuruthy, Kottayam, Chunkom and Kallissery (these were the five whole churches) and i think their were a number of churches where Southists had half the share, perhaps mulanthuruthy fell in that category.

I think we have only unraveled a small amount of our true history and we have a long way to go. i believe shalva weil and Dr. Eisenman are joining forces to conduct a thorough study of the Southist community. and hopefully they will yield some interesting results since Eisenman is an archeologist (i do not believe much archeological studies have been done on Nasranis at all except the Muziris project) and Shalva Weil has already familiarized herself with the Southists.

I’ll leave it to scholars like them to find out any history prior to the Portuguese. since i am an amateur with a genuine interest in history i will focus on things more practical. My areas of interest are church and family histories(including my own), the southist colonization of malabar/ high-range in the early-mid 20th century, and also Southist position in society (occupational wise, caste wise, socio-economics etc).

Dear Joseph, The reason i mentioned anjarakar because i met few families here in US, told me they are anjarakar,
also my mom close to them also mentioned about em and their traditions once. Some of these group are belong to vidhyan family which r they from karunagapally. and i observed them they do have jewish or middleastern looks along with some indian elements.

Dear John Mathew & Joseph,

I would like to indicate that the Southist community has nothing to do with the Anjarakkar. The latter are a recently originated group who still exists. The other names for these people are Yuyomayam or simply mayam.

This community has NO connection with Nazranis. This sect was founded by a Tamil Brahmin who claimed to possess divine powers. During the British reign, he claimed to have received a divine revelation informing the date of Apocalypse. He even send a letter to British Queen! Many people believed him and they prepared for the second arrival of Jesus with prayers. They are called “Anjara Vedakkar” as they advocated that only five and a half years left for the apocalyse.

After the period, nothing happened, but he explained the second arrival of Jesus is not physical, but spiritual. His followers claimed to have received the second coming of Jesus in their soul. This sect shows strong Brahmanic cultural influence.

You can read about them at the last part of “Bhaaratha Sabha Charithram” written by Fr. Xavier Koodappuzha.

Now, regarding ‘Anjuvannam’, there is a misunderstanding that it refers to Jews. This concept is developed by those who are eager to relate Nazranis with Jews.

‘Anju Vannam’ simply means “Five Varnas”. When considering the mentions of Anju Vannam in copperplates, we must consider the social scenario existed during the times of Kulashekhara Kings. The Brahminic religion was just introduced to the native Keralite who did not have any castes. According to the Vedic concept, the society is divided into Four castes: Brahmin, Kshathriya, Vaisya &Sudra. The Sudra caste corresponds to the present-day Nairs & the castes which are inferior to Sudras were called as Panchamas or the Fifth caste.

So, in the Kulashekhara kingdom, if you consider the entire population who accepted Brahmin religion and dominance, they can be found belonging to Five Varnas, according to the Brahmin-Kshathriya view. The term ‘Anju Vannam’ thus refers to simply Hindus of that age.

Interesting Information.

1) Thekkum bhagar migrated to Kaduthuruthy after the war between Portuguese and Samoothiri (1503) and settled there. Mar Yohannan made a CHATHURAPPALLY for them temporarily .Mar Abraham reconstructed this church in the present form for them. During this Mar Abraham’s time they migrated to Kottayam, Chingavanam, Kallissery, Ranni etc. Majority of them converted to Roman church during the time of Udyamperoor Sunnahadose .

2)After the flood of 1341 they (Vadakkumbhagar& Thekkum bhagar)migrated to Kodungalloor and Vadakkumbhagar had 2 churches and Thekkumbhagar had 5 ½ churches(Anquetti Du Perron).That is why they were called Anchara pallikkar .Foolish historians made this story as 7 ½ churches founded by St. Thomas.

3) It is nice to here that Mulamthuruthy church was built by Thenkkumbhagar when their church (Kaduthuruthy) itself was a gift by Mar Yohannan.

4) Those who still want to get credit of building others churches should read their own Poorappattukal. Read Ayanippattu of Margamkalippattu.(Vaayikkunnathinu Munpu Aksharam padikkunnathu nannu!!!!!!)

RP: could you please follow this up and get more info?

As far as I understand, the Vaidhyans of Kollam District are related to the Mar Sabor immigrants. And the Mar Sabor immigrants seem to be different from the Southists (no tradition of endogmany at all; I know this because my maternal grandmother is from Thullassery Manapuram, as purported West Asian immigrant family).

Could you provide some more details?

Thanks.

Joseph,

Yes, you’re right. The Jacobite creation of a Southist Church was a major detriment to proper Southist history, because of the massive amount of distortion of history that needed to be done to justify this (Mor Joseph of Eddessa, etc.). Fortunately, they are the minority, and the SMC Southists are the majority.

My problem with some scholars like Katz and Weil are they don’t possess sufficient knowledge of Syrian Christianity to be able to distinguish true Jewish features, from common Christian/Jewish features.

For example, I know Katz likes to point to the Kiss of Peace, the use of Syriac, etc., to prove that the Southists were Jews, not realizing that those are general Syrian Christian things.

So leaving this to the “scholars” is dangerous because they, in their ignorance, may not do their due diligence. But, at the same time, perhaps they’ll dig up some useful raw data for all of us to use.

P.M. Pathrose,

Thank you for clarifying. It was my mistake, anjarakkar sounded a lot like anjarapallikar so i assumed RP heard it wrong or something. Interesting though, i have never heard of such a sect.

Dear John Mathew. If i could get an email, i can provide some informatin about vidhyan family.

Yes I clarified vidhayans were not part of anjarakarr. One of their lady husband was from anjarakar group.
Brahmins presents in south India that Indian history mentioning that there is a time history that Aryans came to India and there is a time period they start migrating to south.
Among the Aryans of central Asia, there was a minority group of Brahmin caste migrated for priestly jobs in temples.
If such group of Aryans in Kerala since BC or all over India, then there would have been much different of people in India
There is still lot more Dravidian culture in south India. And North Indian people are different in features wise and character wise.
It could be true that few Brahmins or Vedic Brahmins might have converted by st Thomas and they are among the Syrian Christian community.
yet all these Jewish converts , Brahmin converts, Syrian or Assyrian immigrants intermarried early times or in different periods of time.
Also syric immigrants achieved many locals to Christianity and married with them.
Some oral histories says that there were many Buddhist temple in Kerala in Bcs and around 9 or 10 th century some Aryan Brahmin came to Kerala and destroyed these Buddhist temple and changed these temple to Hindu temple. Around these time some Brahmins influenced to Christianity and converted.

Dear All
There is an article in Malayala Manorama dated December 22, 1894 on page 2, about Kottayam Valiapally and
Mar Gregoriose Abdul Jaleel Bawa. I laid my hands on this almost dilapidated paper in the archives of records kept
At Edavazhikal family house. The summary of the article is as follows:
Kottayam Valiapally was built in the year 1550 on the land at the hill top at Thazhathangady,
given by Thekankur Raja to Edavazhikal Mathew Kathanar. Gregoriose Abdul Jaleel Bawa stayed in this church several times as representative of Patriarch of Antioch and served the Malankara church. While at Paravoor church the Bawa became sick. When the Bawa became serious he expressed desire to be taken to Kottayam Valiapally and to be buried there when he dies. But this could not happen due to poor communication system of that time. The Bawa finally died at
Paravoor and buried at Paravoor. I thought it is an interesting piece of information which I should share with all.
This information is a pointer to a few things. One, is the priestly heritage of Edavazhikal family. Two of the Bishops including the Arch Bishop of today ever since the diocese was formed were from that family. Second, when Abdul Jaleel Bawa stayed in the church the Antiochian faith and liturgy already existed and the priestly family of Edavazhikal
is testimony to that. Micro details of this type and application of logical thinking without prejudice will go a long way in
Deciphering history.

Interesting article. But if the priestly heritage of your family is only substantiated by a simple newspaper article, then your family must have one of the weakest priestly traditions. Other families have far more substantial justification of their priestly heritage.

As well, there is no proof that the west syriac liturgy was used in that church based on your article. Mor Gregorios stayed at many churches: are you implying they all were using the west syria liturgy.

Sorry but ‘deciphering’ history is one thing. Rewriting and reinventing history is quite another.

Mor Gregorios consecrated Mor Thoma I as bishop even though his family was using the east syriac liturgy—so that nulls your inferences, since Bawa was obviously able to associate with east syriacs.

Dear Kurian Zachariah,

I saw another article in “Nasrani Deepika” dated October 24, 1887 on page 16, about Edavazhikal family. It says that they are converts from a Pulayas who attended Portuguese men when they go for hunting. They got this name because they used to walk through “Edavazhies” rather than main roads.

Kurian Zachariah, Binu C Cletus : Will you please post a scanned images of the articles you were mentioning from “Nasrani Deepika” and “ Malayala Manorama” so that readers can evaluate the merits of the arguments ?

John Mathew and Cletus,
I swear I am not from Edavazhikal family but only an admirer of the zeal with which the members of this family served the holy Antiochen faith in ancient times. While Malayala Manorama gave a refernce to Kottayam valiapally in a constructive and positive manner which is of interest to the community Nazrani Deepika’s reference to Edavazhikal family is clearly born out of malaise and prejudice. I swear sensible people will rubbish such references. Nazrani Deepika seems to be an example of yellow journalism in ancient times and that is a meanest form of yellow journalism.
Picking out a single family and casting aspersion is born out of jelousy perhaps.
Philipose coreepiscopa grant father of Nazrani Simham E.M.Philip is guru to several
priests. Read the Vattakunnel family history written by Vattakunnel Catholica Bawa. You will find that Vattakunnel Bawa’s father who was a priest was a desciple of Cori Philipose Edavazhikal. The Patriarch of Antioch used to consult Philipose Achen regarding Sabha matters including selection of Bishops.
Dr.Babu Paul and Rev.Kaniamparambil Corepiscopa in their writings mentioned that but for the efforts of the priests of this family Syrian Jacobite faith would have succmbed to Protestanism. Therefore, be little enlightened and do not go after yellow journalism. It is a very negative and unintersting approach.

To Admin,

It is heart wrenching to observe that the deliberate pun from one Binu against Kurian get through the comment section while many other educated opinions often see your censure. Only because of the demoralizing and uncertain blocking I even stopped my occasional commenting.

Readers should have anticipated why the pseudo Keralite Admin, and other brains stormers in this forum missed the intention of Binu’s comment.

Kurien:

I agree that EM Philip’s work was helpful to the Patr of Antioch. Unfortunately, however, he started a very bad trend in Malabar amongst the Puthenkoor — historical fabrication.

His “historical” text is basically fiction, stating that Malankara and Antioch were connected from “ancient” times, when in fact the connection started from the 17th century. The repercussions of this continues to this day when an endless stream of fiction coming out of the Puthenkoor (e.g., we were connected to Antioch, we were connected to Alexandria, etc… silly theories that both the Jacobite SO Church and the Malankara IO Church are guilty of perpetrating).

Although I’m a Jacobite, I’m no fan of the tactics employed by certain late Patriarchs of Antioch to basically overwrite the prior East Syriac history of Malankara. It was wrong, a disservice to our actual fathers.

To use the term “ancient” to describe a family whose historical start begins in the 16th century, and whose major acts (that you describe) are in the 19th century (EM Phillip, etc.) is a distortion of the term “ancient”.

I have nothing to do with Binu’s post; however, if it is accurate then I’m curious, why would that publication resort to such defamation?

Observer: The said post was published as soon as it was posted as there is no moderation.The first post from a first timer in this forum is moderated; after that, all the posts from that person is published immediately. The only exception is when ‘Akismet’ picks the comment as spam because of various reasons like some particular words,links etc. Also, if there are derogatory/abusive comments, those will be moderated.

This appears to be your first comment here, hence I do not know about the censure of your comments.

The veracity of Binu’ s post about an article on Nasrani Deepika, which questions the family origin is doubtful. I don’t buy this with out proof.Someone has already asked him why he altered the source of that article from Sathyanadam to Nasrani Deepika. I think Binu should answer onto why he cherry picked Nasrani Deepika for this ‘mutation’.

As per history, Nasrani Deepika was started to unify Jacobites and Catholics.

Are you guys always like this? I was just kidding. And I thought everyone here would have enough neurons to understand it is a teasing. But you guys seem to have taken it seriously and build up stories on it. I have never heard about such a family, nor seen a newspaper older than me. But seriously, why being a Pulaya convert is so shameful? Do you guys believe in “Manu Smriti”?

Admin:

Thanks for your effort to clarify.
BTW, I never stuck with a single username, IP, or email and a few of my past comments never came to light. I am not a frequent commenter, anyway.

John Mathew and Binu Cletus,
Yes , Abdul Jaleel Bawa stayed in many churches .But he expressesd his wish to be buried
In Kottayam Valiapally. My logic says it is because This church and the community had a special place in his heart
For obvious reasons which may not be liked by some if not all others. Abdul Jaleel Bava did not visit Malankara
to convert East Syriac to West Syriac or vice versa but to uphold the existing faith and liturgy. There no evidence of any such conversion in the church history nor have I heard any such thing from anybody.
I have explained the services and sacrifices of priests from Edavazhikal family. Absence of any comment on this I would consider as acknowledgement. The rest in your post are chaff which needs to be ignored.
Edavazhikal priests whom I mentioned as the situation demanded me to mention lived during a certain period of time whether that period can be called ancient or not so ancient. The point is the sacrifices they have rendered in terms of upholding the holy faith the community believed. The priestly heritage of these priests and the legendary
Anjilimootil Itty Thommen Kathanar (Koonana Kurishu Pledge) is being questioned. Strange !!!
One thing you must remember. The Knanaya community is the smallest. Only 60,000 jacobites and 100,000 catholic. Compare this number with total number of other Christian denominations. This small community has
built some of the old if not oldest churches. The first Christian church of Kottayam, The Kottayam Valiapally,
Kaduthuruthy Church, Mulanthuruthy church are all built by them. Any body who is not a moron(to borrow the words of Anah ) will understand this.

Kurien;

None of the southist churches are even close to being the oldest churches in malabar. The ones you mentioned are all post 15th c. Mulanthuruthy was renovated by southists, not constructed. Compare this with nasrani parashes such as kayamkulam and mavelikara which date to the 11th. And those those two are daughter churches of even older ones. The southists are a small community with commensurate contrivutions.

You claim Five Churches as a big deal? If we go by ratios then the tiny community of Thiruvithamcode, with their one ancient church, far exceeds the southists with their five churches (and larger popukation).

I already commented on the dubious contributions of em philip in creating political revisionist histories. If you want the identity of someone who truly saved the puthenkoor from protestantism, that would be the nasrani saint Mar Gregorios of Parumala.

Or Konat Malpan who published and translated texts of our rite to keep the faith alive. EM Philip does stand anywhere close.

Dear Kurien,

What are you trying to prove? Your family was a great one? Your fathers were obedient to Patriarchs? So what? How it can improve your or others’ life?

It is really strange that even today there are people who try to acquire respect by bragging about their family history. It seems like you Syrians are living in some bygone Centuries. The greatness of a person is determined by his own deeds, not by belonging to any particular family. If you have achieved something in your life, be proud of it, rather than putting forward such silly stories. There are many people who come up with these kinds of bloodline myths. Some Pakalomattom family says they are Brahmins converted by St. Thomas, one Kollipuraikkon family claims they are descendants of Villarvattom kings, again another family called Muthalaly says they are progeny of Mar Sapir and Mar Peruz who arrived at Quilon. All these kind of hoaxes are seen among only Syrians.

If your grandfathers were Bishops or Priests, your church will have records for that. Then why do you toil to prove anything? What ‘unknown’ fact are you bringing up?

NB: I used wonder why a Vaishnavite king should give land and other privileges to some totally strange foreigners, until I came across this very convincing article:

http://anaryan-blog.blogspot.com/2010/10/knai-thomman-and-belly-dance.html

Mr.John Mathew
Mulanthuruthy church was built under the leadership of Kunnassery Kuncheria Tharakan a Knananite ( then Southist) during the 11th century according to the official church history. Therefore make that correction. St.Gregoriose is our Saint and it is not fair to make comparisons involving Saints. No more comments from my side involving saints. I don’t think any body who is not a moron will deny the legenadary Anjilimoottil Itty Thommen Kathanar”s sacrifices in saving the Jacobite faith from the state sponsored conversions during the Portugese time. And so also the sacrifices of Edavazhikal priests in preventing the state sponsored conversion to protestanism.
You close your ears and eyes at the comments of enlightened people like Kaniamparambil Corepiscopa and Dr.Babu Paul,I.A.S. Instead , you show curiosity in knowing more about some muck written about Edavazhikkal people in some muck yellow magazine (ficticious ? ) quoted by some muck fellow in this forum. And every time you bring some other issues deviating from the points I make. Making comparisons of priestly families without bench mark is futile excercise.
Biggest stealth have occurred and occurring in religion than in politics.
In the Travancore State Manual the official notification by the British Resident it is stated “that the arrival of
Thomas of Kana and his followers in A.D 345 gave a fillip to the existing converted Christians ——-“
Attempts are now being made to high jack or steal this year 345 by vested interests and substitute with some other dates convenient to them. Artifacts pointing to this year 345 have been destroyed or stolen. Manuscripts in cellulosic matter will disintegrate during this long period unlike leather scrolls. This has become handy for the vested interests to come with all sorts of dates. Under this circumstances circumstantial evidences are very important. Another case of stealth is with regard to the term Puthenkur and Pazhayakur. Roman catholic faith came to Malankara only after the arrival of Portugeese. Old faith was Antiochian faith. Therefore, which is Puthiakur and which is Pazhayakur ? Still a third case of stealth, there was a statement issued by Devalokam faction of the church that the Syrian Jacobite church was new and was started in the year 2002. This was published in Malayala Manorama recently. There have been no trace of Greek in the church liturgy any time in the history of Malankara church. It is all syriac. The present Konat Achen says it was all Greek in olden days.
I have been an admirer of Konat priests for their contributions. Look at what the present Priest from the same family says. The northist section will change their allegiance according to convenience. But not a Knananite.
This is because they are the followers o Simon the Zealote. This fact was stated by somebody else in this forum as I remember right. No doubt a vertical split has occurred and one section has come under Vatican. That is a different matter and has become part of the history of the church.

Kurian: the ad 345 date is fiction. Real scholars, as opposed to self-aggrantizing story writers, put the date at the 8-11th c. There is no evidence to support the existance of the southists prior to the 15th c, whereas the Nasranis have artifacts, documents that go to the 6-9th c.

Mulanthuruthy was renovated in the 15thc by a southist; that character did not exist in the 11th c. To use your favorite word, only a moron would be unable to correlate dates properly. This has already been discussed here. Reread.

There is no evidence as to what creed Itty Kathanar followed; his leader, Thoma Archdeacon, followed the east syriac. West syriac only came to india a century later. Again, reread to dispel your obvious ignorance.

No trace of greek? Have no never said ‘Kurieleison’, ‘stoumen kalos’? Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about: the liturgy of st james was a greek liturgy translated to syriac somewhere near the 6th c. It came to india in syriac in the 17th c.

Go and learn something before trying to teach your betters.

Kurian:

In case you can’t read, here’s the summary of Mulanthuruthy Church.

1. According to the Church’s history (available: http://www.mulanthuruthypally.com/history.html):
“This Church was founded and established in the 11th Century A.D, under the Holy Apostolic See of Antioch, and the Church was consecrated on 3rd Karkkidakkam (July),in between 1100-1125 A.D. The Church was modified in the 16th Century A.D. The carvings on the main door of the Church, made of granite, on which is inscribed in Syrian script, read as ʹʹthe door of the Mar Thoman Church was re-erected on 9th Thulam 1575 A.D.ʹʹ It is one of the ancient Churches in Kerala.”

Summary: constructed in the 11th c, renovated in the 16th c.

2. According to the Southist priest Kollamparambil:
‘The Crosses were first brought to kaduthuruthy. Then they were removed to Kottayam,probably in AD 1550.In that year, in a battle at the island of vaduthala near vaikom, the Portuguese commander, Francesco Silveira de Menesis, helping the Cohin King’s army, killed the King of Vadakkunkur (Kaduthuruthy). The whole army of Vadakkunkur then formed itself into chaver squads and vowed to avenge the murder of their King by killing all Christians, the co religionists of the murderer.( C J Wicki, G Schurhammer) On that occasion, even the christian cheiftain of the family of Kunnacherry, who was one of the ministers of the murdered King, had to leave the Kingdom of vadakkunkur. He, with as many christians as he could gather, fled to Mulanthuruthy. He had taken with him the venthamudi now preserved at the Mulanthuruthy church which he himself caused to be built.’ ( Christian orient, March 1994, p32)

Summary: The Southist “builder” of Mulanthuruthy was of the post 1550 (16th c) era.

So you can put these two sets of facts together, and come to a clearer understanding of matters.

As has often been said: Southist history can not be taken back to an era earlier than the 15th c. Anything prior to that is conjecture: the AD 345 date is only one of many dates ascribed to the Southists. And the AD 345 is the one with least corroboration. The eighth century is what more scholars put as the arrival of Thomas of Cana. Whether he was the father of the southists, is of course, another matter.

Again, a little education would be helpful in your case.

Kurian: I don’t know what you have so much to repeat about this family ! Never heard of them. Priests are from almost in every family who have contributed much to the church they belong. Anjilimoottil Itty Thommen Kathanar is so controversial ! Catholic calls him as the forger ! You are belittling history by your claims of some unknown family priests on protestanism. The polemic literature published by EM Philip is of no use to anyone !

Kottayam Church was built by both Southists and Northists and it went to Southist control later on. They got Portuguese help in this. Kaduthuruthy Church was built by Northists and it went to Southist who came there later on. These are not even disputed by any Southist ! What are those Churches which Southist had in 17th century? What is there so much to talk about Southists other than repeating that there are no evidences, only claims !

Why say AD 345 ? Why cant it be AD 45? These claims are with out any evidences and shady Southist writers even failed to prove their existence before the arrival of Portuguese !
Non partisan scholars mention if ever there is a Thomas of Cana he came later and he may have been a Bishop who converted many people here !

How can you belittle Konatt Malpans who are even respected by all Christians of Kerala. Please, Northist or Southist will change their allegiance when ever they want. Southist just follows Northists in all allegiance changes. You sounds like Southist are some special creatures. Having not even handful of churches , Southist split between Catholics and Orthodox in 17th century and then Southist came to Catholic in 1920’s.There are even Pentecostal churches for them ! So are Catholics, in 19th century a good portion of Northists were under Chaldean Patriarch for some time and then came back to be under Lathin rite bishops !

Paulose:

Could you explain more about Kottayam Valiyapally? I had always wondered how a Southist Church got a Pahlavi Cross in it, but if it was originally affiliated with Northists and Southists together, then perhaps the Pahlavi Cross makes sense.

Kaduthuruthy’s history is well known. There was a split between Northists and Southists due to a foreign bishop who supported the Southist side, I believe.

John Mathew and Poulose
Foul mouthing is an indication of loosing wicket. This may be the case with you Mr.John Mathew. If I want to know about your ancestry I would hear it from you and not from your bashers (if you have any).
If you want to know about Knanaya ancestry hear it from Knananites and not from gossip mongering yellow magazines published by Knanaya bashers and you have proved yourself as one. Well, and then hear from me about Knanaya
Ancestry.
Thomas of Kana a wealthy trader of Judea Christian origin from Edessa (Urfa or Uraha) used to trade between Edessa port the important port of Middle East and Kodungallore the important port of Kodungallore. He has come across Christians in the Malabar coast during his several business trips to this area. And he has understood that these converted Christians were languishing without proper leadership and episcopacy and this matter was communicated to the Patriarch of Antioch .
.Due to the migratory spirit and better prospect of trade a group of Judea Christians consisting of 72 families from 7 Gothras namely
Baji, Hadai,Koja, Belkoth, Kujalik, Majmoth and Thejamoth accompanied by Knai Thomas and Mar Joseph of Uraha the
Bishop landed in Kodungallore in the year 345. The rest is all history recorded in the annuls of Church history and notified as a historical fact in the Travancore State manual published in 1905 as per MacKency.This record is accepted by the court of law in various court cases from time to time. Remember, the present day Knanaya community is the blood line of these 72 families. Your statement ‘Knai Thoma is not the father” is childish and immature and it is yellow magazine information. The blood line is from the 7 gothras mentioned above and many if not all the families of Knanaya community know that. It is upto you to believe the yellow magazine gossip or the fact.
Mulunthuruthy church might have been renovated in the 16th century. But it is an 11th century church built by the so called Tekumbagar as per the church history I have seen . However, there is a question mark here and I would leave it at that. Another point I would like to make is this. When you talk of church it is not merely the physical structure of the church building made up of brick and mortar or clay or whatever. The organic form or the living form of the church existed ever since they became Christians. The physical form of the church at Kodungallore might have been ramshackle for worship and these might have been wiped out due to floods and Muslim invasion because of which they have flood to south wards. The legend says that when they left they tied the ashes of their property in their cloths for sentimental reasons. This aspect is reflected in the present day Knanaya wedding songs. The word “Charamkettikal” originated from this. The yellow magazines gave a different colour to make it juicier which you know very well. Subsequently they built church buildings in which ever places they decide to settle. The Persian cross was brought from Middle East and is not fabricated locally or presented. That way, Emperor Hailey Selasi presentd a golden cross when he has visited this church for which I was a witness. It should not turn out that after a few centuries a different story will emerge about this cross.
Poulose, did I belittle Konat Achens. You go and read it once again. I only quote him despising Antioch in one meeting at M.D.Seminary recently. According to him it was all Greek and not Syriac in the texts. Just because there are some Greek words it would not become Syriac. There are words from other languages in English. I can give several examples. By that English will not become “not English”. Malayalam has words from other languages but the syntax remains Malayalam. This history of Knananite community I learned from my childhood from my forefathers who in turn learned from their forefathers and son on. And not from the so called fiction written by E.M.Philip in 1925. No force on earth can break this history whether you believe it or not. I am no more interested to break my head on insensitive rocks. If your aim is to do Knanaya bashing continue to do so . I wish you Good Luck and call it a day.

Dear John

I don’t know how Southists got the cross at Kottayam. The Kottayam Valiya Pally was a joint church built by both Northists and Southists around 1550 with Portuguese help. Vennimala, some 14 kms from todays Kottayam center was the capitol of “ Thekkumkur Kingdom”. They shifted to Kottayam “ Thaliyil Kotta” in 13th century. I am not sure about these dates. Even though Christians were there in Kottayam, there were no church at Kottayam. They go to Kuravlinagad and Kaduthuruthy Church once in a while. Church at Kottayam was built after some priest from Kuravlinagad or Kaduthuruthy reached there. It was built by both the Southists and Northists. Afterwords problem started there, it was similar to Kaduthuruthy. Northists went to the King to built another Church. King permitted them to built a small church as there is already one Church. So the Cheriya palli at Kottayam was built on 1579. I think the crosses all have been taken from old churches and the Kottayam went to Southists as people divided after it was installed.

According to kothanalloor church website, they took the cross from Pallikunnu Church .
http://www.kothanalloorchurch.org/churchhistory.htm

Dear Paulose, I am from Kothanalloor. The Pallikunnu mentioned in the kothanalloor church website is just the name of a small hill near the entrance of the present church. Earlier, the church was located on that hill and the name explains it. (palli = church, kunnu=hill)

Dear Mathew

Thanks for the details. It sounded like another church to me. Now I understand it was the old church there.

Kurien:

If one wants a defamatory pseudohistory, one will go to a “Southist basher”. If one wants self-aggrandizing pseudo-history, one will go to any member of the community.

Both are unreliable: if one wants history, they’ll look for facts that can be objectively defended.

Little of what you provided is defensible. Any Syro-Malabar Catholic would easily refute your theory of Thomas Cana coming from the Patr of Antioch.

The identity and time of Thomas of Cana is highly disputed by Syriac scholars and historians (Assemani, Mingana, etc are a few of the true scholars that discuss this man). The Armenians claim him as their own, calling him either Thomas the Merchant or Thomas the Priest (you’ll see on google translate that the Armenian words for both have “Kana” in them).

The actual facts (slim as they are) would indicate a Himyaritic Jewish origin for the Southists, with conversion to Christianity in the 15th c or thereabouts.

Mulanthuruthy history says nothing about it being constructed in the 11th c by a Southist. Don’t distort facts. It says that it was:
1) constructed in the 11th
2) renovated in the 16th by a minister of the kingdom — M T Antony has already cited a real scholar who identifies this individual, a Southist it seems, and his era is in the 16th c.

Mulanthuruthy was likely one of the many Nasrani Churches constructed in the wake of the Katheesangal’s arrival. It may have been renovated in the 16th c by the newly arrived Southists but not constructed.

So far, there is zero evidence that the Southists existed anywhere in Kerala other than Cranganore, prior to the 15th c. Your own historians say this.

John Mathew
Nice to hear from you and from this forum that Armenians and Northist would like to call themselves as descendents of Knai Thoma. In other words they would like to call themselves as Knananites. That is a big complement for Knananites. Thank you.

Dear all,
I have seen a lot of discussion regarding the history of Mulanthurthy church. Even though I do not follow episcopal way, the argument that Mulanthuruthy does not have history is unbelievable. I studied the history – they themselves published a great souvenir with the facts and legends related to the Church. More than I had discussions with the elders and wise of the present time about the history, I can say that it may have a history dating back to 12th century. If any one wants to have the details, I can scan them and email them.

From my studies and discussions with the elders I think that there were Christians of Jewish background came to Kerala. They were independent and did not have thrones or hierarchy. But in course of time, as it happened anywhere in the world, everything came to them. Anyhow when Portugese landed here, they had seen Christians who were not under anyone. We can praise God for preaching the gospel in the very beginning of gospel to us. We can again thank God for keeping His Church through centuries. I pray and hope again that let Jesus our LORD keep His church from thrones and crowns and reveal the mystery related to the history of Christians of Kerala.

In Christ,

Aji Matthew

Kurien:

You sad illiterate soul. If only you had the capacity to read and do research you would find how recent the “Knanaya” legend is.

And you would also know that in the older traditions, the Northists used to claim that the Northists were the children of Thomas of Cana, while the Southists were bastard children (i.e., illegitimate children of Thomas via a concubine). I don’t care too much for these stories, but it goes to show that there are a variety of traditions on Thomas of Cana. The Knanaya one of the modern era was fabricated by a Jacobite bishop.

I doubt any Southist Catholics believe the Jacobite version.

Moreover, I didn’t say that the Armenians were descendents of Thomas of Cana. Again, please learn how to read at the very least. I said that the Armenians claim that Thomas of Cana was an Armenian merchant and/or priest. Certainly the name “Cana” is congruent to the Armenian word for merchant and the Armenian word for Priest.

So no one really knows who Thomas of Cana was. The Northists of old (i.e., the Nasranis of Cranganore) claimed him as their own. So did the Southists of Cranganore. This “Knanaya” theory is a late 19th early 20th c legend that coincided with the creation of the separate Southist dioceses by the Catholics and the Orthodox.

Finally, regarding Greek. If you had even the slightest interest in studying your faith — I assume you are a Jacobite, but an obviously ignorant one — you would study some Syriac, and go through the liturgical texts, and the works of the fathers. And you would find that the West Syriac liturgy of St James was a translation of a Greek original. This is fact. You may consult any scholarly work on the liturgy to learn this. And you would find that the West Syriac faith is an amalgalm of the old Syriac rites of Mesopotamia (continued to this day by the East Syriac Church) and the Greek rites of Antioch.

The history is very similar to the “Malankara Orthodox Church” of India, actually!

In both cases the Church was originally a part of the other.
1a. The Syriac Orthodox Church of the modern era used to be a part of the Greek Church of Antioch.
1b. The Malankara Orthodox Church used to be a part of the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Then due to politics a split occurred, with ethnic overtones.

2a. The Syriac peasants rebelled, adopted Miaphysitism and formed a separate Church, translating the Greek works into Syriac.
2b. The Indian priests rebelled (though didn’t change dogma) and formed a separate Church with an “Indian” nature.

Funny how history repeated itself.

So … go learn some more before you comment. You’re like a child amongst adults. The first few times you’ll be corrected, but ultimately some one needs to discipline you and send you school.

John Mathew:
Concubine- A word created by Northist in order to claim the ancestry of Knai Thoma. Your addiction to
Yellow journalism is further confirmed.
It was already agreed that intermixing of Greek words do exists in St.James Liturgy and that St.James liturgy has Greek,
Syriac, English and Malayalam versions. This is not an issue at all.
It was already made clear by somebody in this forum that Knanai diocese was formed hundred years ago. However, Knanayism existed ever since Knai Thoma and 72 families from Edessa landed in the year 345A.D which is recorded in the History. The Knanai people are the descendants of this 72 families and Knai Thoma is only one member of this fraternity.
The above issues were amply cleared before and if again raised the same will be rubbished and will not be answered.
It is a waste of time to prolong discussions of this type with some body who has blood brain barrier problem

What is this ” Knanaya” term we hear today in Kerala: “Knanaya” is a word created by some Southists in 1985 to consolidate their claim on the ancestry of Thomas of Cana !!

This “Knanaya” name was first used by some Jacobiites in a Malayalam Manorama news item in 1985’s ! Earlier Thekkumbhagar claims of Thomas of Cana was always contested !! ALL Thekkumbhagar started using the new name “ Knanaya” after 1985 to consolidate their claim of Thomas of Cana . Has anyone heard of any such community changing their name in 1985 and then talking about some “Knanayism” which never existed ! Is ” Thekumbhagarism” the so called ” Knanayism” ????

There is a thesis from Delhi University which suggests some Scheduled Tribes to adopt “ Thekkumbhagar” strategies to change their caste name in India as a way to escape from the social order !!! Are these Southists so fund of yellow journalism ! They changed even their church boards to include this “Knanaya” term !!. This guy is saying “Knanaynism” existed long before !!!

Why do these Thekumbhagar personify the words of Goebbels ! Do they believe in telling a lie one hundred times, and that it becomes the truth.

If you people has no interest in history or facts why do you personify the words of Goebbels ! The only historical quote of Kurian in his posts is some words from a Travancore State Manual of 1906. That too with some changes ! Does their history start with NagamAiya’s words of 1906 !!! They don’t even cite that with out manipulation!!!

Southist, Northists everyone claimed on Thomas of Cana. These are some southists who are addicted to fake claims. They must be treated as propagandist who are so immersed in “FAKE HISTORY” !

Another types of claim regarding nasrani immigrations

Knai Thommen the famous Syrian trader, with a retinue of 472 families came to Kerala and settled down in 345 AD. It seems that Christian families from Syria came away due to the harassment of the Persian King Sappor II. Cherakon Perumal of Chera Dynasty ruled over Kerala at that time. The King welcomed these Syrians; who landed at Kodungalloor (Cranganoor) and allowed them to settle down on the western side of the Kodungalloor street. They were also given a number of privileges inscribed on copper plates. These are known as Knai Thommen Cheppeedu. Later in the 10th century some of these Knananites came down south and settled down in Kuttanad; Chingavanam, Kallisseri, Ranni and other places.
These Knanai Syrians try to keep up their identity even today. They do not even intermarry with other Christians. Later some of these families became Roman Catholics. They have now a Bishop of their own at Kottayam. The rest of these Syrian families arenow a section of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Kerala. The Knanai Christians are usually known as “Thekumbhagar”.
In 774 AD along with Bishop Thomma another set of Christian families came to Kerala from Persia. Again nearly after 40 years, in 820 AD along with Maruvan Sapeer Easo, another mass immigant families came from Persia and settled down in Kerala. In course of time these Christians from Persia mingled and merged with the local Christians.These Christians under the leadership of Sapeer Easo helped to rebuild a new Quilon port and town, as the ancient port of Quilon was destroyed by some natural phenomenon. In gratefulness for the help rendered, the King gave them certain privileges. These privileges and rights were engraved on copper plaques known as the “Thareesapally Cheppaedukal” (820 AD). This Chembu pattayam had three plates. The first one is preserved at the Head Quarters of Marthoma Sabha at Thiruvella. The second plate is at Devalokam, the Head Quarters of Catholicos of the Syrian Orthodox Church, in Kottayam. The third plate is lost.
There was another Chembupattayam given after 820 AD. The first, second and third plates of this are preserved at Devalokam at Kottayam. The fourth plate is with the Marthomite Church at Thiruvella.
All these evidences show that there had been periodical immigration of Christians from Syria, Persia and adjoining areas into Kerala. The Christians in Kerala enjoyed freedom of worship, respect and certain rights and privileges and were an important section of society.
Christians – Elite and Indigenous
Eventhough many Christians from Persia and Syria came and settled down in Kerala, the majority of Kerala Christians were local converts and their descendants. So Malankara Christians is an indigenous Church in spite of the Syrian appellation.

Knai Thomas of Cana
Who are the “St. Thomas” Christians of India?
Thomas of Cana or Knai Thoma led the first group of 72 Syrian Christian families to India in AD 345. There is no record of Christian communities in India prior to this date. Thomas of Cana and his companion Bishop Joseph of Edessa also brought with them the tradition of St. Thomas the Apostle of the East. Later, Christian communities in Kerala would identify Knai Thoma with Mar Thoma – Thomas of Cana with Thomas the Apostle – and claim St. Thomas had arrived in Kerala in AD 52 and established the first Christian church at Musiris – ancient port near present day Kodungallur – the main trading port of the time.

The Rev. Dr. G. Milne Rae of the Madras Christian College, in The Syrian Church in India, did not allow that St. Thomas came further east than Afghanistan. He told the Syrian Christians that they reasoned fallaciously about their identity and wove a fictitious story of their origin. Their claim that they were called “St. Thomas” Christians from the 1st century was also false.

Syrian Christians were called Nasranis (from Nazarean) or Nestorians (by Europeans) up to the 14th century. Bishop Giovanni dei Marignolli
( Ref: Acta Indica by Ishwar Sharan). Has anybody got any comment on this article

If you are a regular participant, my sincere apologies for this error. This can be caused by an error in code. Kindly wait till the post is reviewed.

These are some of the possible reasons if the program is working the way it is supposed to be.
1. This can be due to an error that program treats comments as spam if there are more than 4 links. 2. It can also be due to wrong data about your internet service provider in the plugin file we use. 3. This can also be caused by the use of a proxy server. 4. This can also be because you are using multiple proxy names ( multiple Avatars- nick names not suited according to us )

Sir, Does this means there is something wrong with my post? or is this aspect of history to be studied more with special referance to the spice trade? Where the syriac speaking settelers of Kerala before Christ our real forefathers? May be the decline and disappearance of Parthians with their seafaring skills can be linked.to early Malabar settlements.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
E Varghese

Why are you obsessed in identifying your Jewish heritage.
Grow up – There is only one christ and In christ there are no distinctions !
Christ came to erase the superiority of the jews and to establish the kingdom to ALL mankind. Knowing your history is good, but trying and proving that you are one among the JEWS is like waging war all over again. You behave like pharisees, whom Jesus was trying to drive away from the synagogue.

Dear Mr.Ninan Jacob,
Thanks for the response. I didnot mean Jews but the whole lot of semitic people.This also include the 10 other tribes of Israel.They are not Jews but could be Phonesions.or of coptic race.We know that from King Solomon’s times these people lived in Kerala.Anthropologically,we do not confirm to the Dravidian copy.We need to know who we are.I am talking of times before Christ. and you will agree that Jesus came for the lost sheep not only in Judea but all over the world.
E Varghese

Yes i would say if people are in to this matter of heritage, let them have it. Now days our generation problem we lost our forefather’s passion of christianity and these chistian biblical heritage and it sort of true. Its really interesting our own hidden stories dusted and forgotten and nowdays people are looking for something. Even brahimn heritage to abraham is so intersting to me. How these disiples went around the world and preached gospel. the understanding of 12 tribes otherthan we only come to think yehudhees or jews.

Dear Mr. Ninan Jacob (Post : 31205 )

Thanks to your response. I have a bit different opinion about your point. First of all I agree and respect with your point “There is only one Christ” as we all know it, including all the Episcopal Churches and their bishops and clergy. If so why should be there different Churches, and different Qurbanas, why should we have more than one Church? Are you ready to join Latin Church and learn their Catechism and die as a Roman Catholic? Can you advice your Bishop to join Latin Church as it is the largest Church?

In the case of Nasranis of Malabar, first of all there was a special mission for St Thomas apostle in Malabar and He was sent to India by Jesus Christ itself. He came travelling through wild Ocean, forests, etc to proclaim about Messiah to the people in Malabar as per his Lord’s first instruction to the apostles, Mathew 10:5-6 (Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, “Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, …… and Jesus clarified his mission again in Mathew (15:24 He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”)

Thomas:

Mathew 10 is not the end of the gospels; it occurs prior to the crucifixion.

What does Jesus say at the end of the Gospels?

Neither Jews nor non-Jews were excluded from the Preaching of the Gospels. Otherwise, how could you explain the Evangelist Luke, a non-Jew, as well as many of the Apostles (not the disciples) who were non-Jews (Greek, Roman, Ethiopian, Aramean/Assyrian, Egyptian, etc.).

Regarding Ninan … I can’t speak for anyone else, but I think that the Nasrani “obsession” with Jewish heritage may be due to a desire to learn about one’s ancestral origins. That is a natural obsession which many humans have. Otherwise, how would all of these geneological search services, DNA geneology, etc., exist? These services cost a bit of money, yet all kinds of people avail themselves of them.

Now, personally, I am interested in possible Hebrew origins because, to be honest, I like the Hebrew heritage. I find the Old Testament to be a great, relevant book that speaks to me directly — especially the Wisdom literature, and the Prophets — and I am interested in the fact that some lines of my ancestry may have been genetic heirs of that Old Testament heritage.

I don’t think there is a superiority complex here. After all, the Old Testament is very critical of the Hebrew peoples. Read any of the Prophets to understand this.

Dear John Mathew

Thanks for your response. May I note here shortly a few points?

Scholars have strongly believed and concluded that “Jewish (Hebraic) colonies of India paved the way for St. Thomas “. The churches/Christian communities which he established were also in Jewish/Hebrew colonies (at Malabar and Mylapre-Madras).

However, I understand that the apostles never objected Gentiles to join Christianity or preach the gospels.

The other point is that, there is a common belief that all the twelve apostles always accompanied Jeus and attended his preaching during the three years prior to the crucifixion of Jesus. After the resurrection, he appeared to the twelve apostles, offered and blessed them with Holy Spirit and the spiritual powers were given, etc. Once they received the Holy spirit and spiritual powers, the apostles were prepared to preach the gospel. Then he instructed each and every apostle, to preach the Good News (the gospel) to whom, how and where, etc in the then world. In fact, the post resurrection text in the various Gospels clearly matches with the context of Mathew Chapter 10 even though it was placed and compiled at the pre-crucifixion.

Biblical scholars have generally agreed that Gospels were edited /added and verses were altered /deleted / misplaced in NT. Thus the meaning of the words, phrases and actions in the NT was manipulated to diminish the Semitic thoughts and Jewish/Hebraic practices of Early Church (up to 4th century), and thus it was corrupted a lot by the NT composers and compilers due to various geo-political and the cultural influence of the then Roman Empire.

Yes, they did married the converted one. And that how nasrani got more indian elements without being strictly endogamous. Recently i came to see a portughese family goa and they are being married each other and they re look like spanish people in india soil of goa. i would think we would have look like that but we married to indians in some extent and we are more like indians. Even southist look like more to the indian side. since we have these above opnion that ancient times jewish settlements there or they become nasranis, I see they re still jewish people european like and few among them have indian or keralite elements.

Dear Thomas,

1. No, scholars have no consensus on (a) whether St Thomas came, (b) if he did, who he converted, (c) there were Jews in Malabar when he came. These are all hypotheses with no shred of objective evidence; they are traditions, not facts. Although you and I may believe this, and wish it to be so, that does not *make* it so.

2. The Gospels are a Semitic text. They may have been written in Greek and/or Aramaic; this is under considerable debate with, again, no real consensus. But regardless of the language, the content of the Gospels expresses Semitic thoughts. At most John has some Greek influence, do to its philosophical tone; however, this is unsurprising because by the first century, the Jews had already around five centuries of contact with Hellenism and it’s philosophies.

The point is that, regardless of the compilers and composers of the Gospels, it is still a text that expresses the religion of the Hebrew peoples. And you can’t claim that when I cite the Gospels, there is Greek influence, yet when you cite Mathew 10 there is no Greek influence. Either you accept the teachings of the Gospels and accept it in its entirety, or you don’t accept it (in which case don’t quote bits and parts of it).

Finally, some may claim that the universalism of the Gospels (that Jesus told his disciples to baptize all nations) is somehow foreign to Hebraic religion. That this is probably a distortion introduced to the Gospels by Greek compilers. Such claimants should better read the Old Testament to straighten out their concept of what the Hebrew religion was all about. Read Jeremiah or Amos to realize that even in OT times, the teaching was that GOD was the god of all nations, and that faith in the LORD was open to all nations.

Such ideas in the Gospels is not from Greek philosophers or theologians — it is wholly consistent with the Prophets.

There is no consensus on the origin and bloodline of Marthoma christians.There is many hypotheses with no corroborative evidence. This could be because there are several interest groups. The Church of the East, The Nestorians, The Catholic Church, The Knanaya sect, The English Church, The local history experts, The non Christian Community in Kerala, The Jews of Kerala and the Kerala politicians are all holding different hypothesis and ready to deny any other view.
There is need for unbiased reserch.Greek,Roman,Jewish,Israel (other than Jew),Arabic,West Asian history are well documented.There is no use crying over spilled milk (Portuguese destroying documents).The Nasrani community should fund research on the origin and bloodline of Nasrani Christians
s.

Poulose Nellikattil:
Your contention that The word” Knanaya ” origiginated in the year 1985 is nonsense. For your information the Knanaya Committee was formed in the year 1880 of which Joseph Mar Dynesius was the patron. In 1910 the then Thekumbagar was given a separate diocese by the Patriarch of Antioch and the name of this diocese was declared as Knanaya diocese the first bishop of this diocese was Mar Sevariose.

Poulose Nellikaatil:
In one of your post you asked a question about Edavazhikal Core Philipose. To answer your question I will refer you to the speech made by Babu Paul I.A.S in a meeting held at Kallissery two weeks ago to commemorate the 350 the anniversary of Anjilimoottil Itty thommen Kathanar. Here is what he said:
“ But for Anjilimoottil Itty Thommen Kathanar the entire Syrian Christian community in Malankara would have been Catholics under the influence of Portugal.”
He further added “But for the sacrifices of Edavazhikal Philipose Corepiscopa there would not haven any Jacobite, orthodox etc today in Malankara. They all would haven embraced Protestants under the influence of Anglican missioneries.”. So please be enlightened. These two priests were Knanatites the successors of Simon the Zealote.
This is for your kind information.

Has Mary received the results from the questionnaire?
I am really curious to what the Black Jews have to say about the Southist community.

Sorry Phil. You knows the answer here.
Today the Knanaya community as a whole is living a lie.
Clearly you have nothing to do with the Jewish people. There is a lot of noise made by the Knas. But there is hardly any truth. Knas are descendents of the Vellalla Chettys from Tamil Nadu, who were forced to escape the persecution from the locals (for being Christians). Even the community’s name is indicative of this. If you are southists that means you came from south, or else we northists cannot be here.
So the Knas are undeniably St. Thomas Christians, but the much touted Jewishness is a myth, a lie.
As always, the body never lies. It is really unfortunate that people fails to understand who they are. Knas are very good people, very hardworking, and have a very good community spirit and bonds. But they are too busy in creating fantasy stories. I myself have heard many theories about the Noble origin of the Knas. Initially they were all ‘Syrian Immigration’ stories. They it changed to ‘from Quana in Lebanon, with even claims that their ancestors where blood relatives of the lord (who attended the Wedding Feast at Quana). But now they are descendants of King Solomon, the seed of Abraham, The sons of Jacob, Tribe of Judah. The claims have become so exorbitant that no body would buy them. Please refrain from boasting.

I have been deeply offended by the fabricated story published by the Knas in Malayala Manorama, which is an amphibious assault on us northists, the true Nasranis and an insult to our forefathers. Many of us share the same feeling. I believe the Knanaya have every right to make any such claims and live those dreams. But it is unfortunate to drag us in to your fantasies.

“Knas are descendents of the Vellalla Chettys from Tamil Nadu, who were forced to escape the persecution from the locals (for being Christians). Even the community’s name is indicative of this. If you are southists that means you came from south, or else we northists cannot be here.

So the Knas are undeniably St. Thomas Christians, but the much touted Jewishness is a myth, a lie”

The Knanayas are St. Thomas Christians?
I thought the St. Thomas Christian story was a myth as well?
If they are in fact St. Thomas Christians what are they doing in Tamil Nadu? How did they get there?
Since when was there persecution of Christians in Tamil Nadu? Is their proof of existence of such a community prior to the 15th century in Tamil Nadu?
Why would they practise endogamy if they are St. Thomas Christians?
Where do those few “Jewish” customs and songs that the Knanaya preserve come from?
Why would they create a whole new identity to differentiate them from the St. Thomas Christians?
Is there a piece in St. Thomas Christian history which confirms a schism or migration to Tamil Nadu?

As far as i know about knanaya i have some questions about them
i see syrian influences from all Syrian Christian community.All west Asian influences among Syrian Christians among non knanaya group and ancient Muslim community in kerala.If knanaya claiming Syrian then which one they are claiming
Antioch group or other Jewish community converted to Christianity?

All the Syrian Christian communities other than new converts from RC or other are celebrating pessiah which claiming from ancient Jewish and few Brahmin groups as Nasranis which they think how pesiiah traditions and Aramaic worships came from.
Why knanaya jacobite claiming anthiocan group while knanaya claiming catholic Nestorian or other Jewish group?
More clarify if someone among orthodox or Syrian Christian group claiming Antioch which is natural, it only mean that they just came out from todays existing suryoyo orthodox which they may have some Jewish influences? How can knanaya say anything separate from them?

conan kurishu sathyam event proves Portuguese burned ancient documents or proofs regarding nasranis or syrian christian group and the reason they made oath.If knanaya did not went through these historical events then how come they don’t have any proofs?
If knanaya are strong in their history and orginal people without mix, why knanaya being a subgroup of nasranis?

Why knanayas are not taking the leadership and being a representative group between Syria and Malabar? Today’s Jewish community in Cochin doesn’t matter they mixed; they very well know Hebrew and how come a single knanaya does not even know Suryani or Hebrew?

There are more west Asian immigration happened and proofs among nasrani or Syrian Christianity why knanayas are shouting and rejecting these and feel so rebel to these histories? Ancient times oral traditions say that east syric was used and Persian bishop had contact with malabar and only after conon kurusu sathyam west syic began to use and

It noted that a new bishop from Jerusalem appointed and few new immigrants from today suryoyo group (mild form of arab jewish christian) reached 16 century, which we are guessing jacobites. so knanayas belong to these or yet knanaya has different claim to tell? So how can knanaya claim brought west syric taksa at 3rd century?

knanaya claiming a persian cross belong to Mar Sabor Mar afroth group of Persian immigrants in qulion which was consider a good number of immigrants eventually merged with natives in malabar.suryanis history says that even 1800 the bible used in kerala in suryani which is peshitta which experts says that if is it Brahmins it would have been Sanskrit or if in other religion then the language will be ancient Tamil. So perhaps the forefathers were using suryani language.

I would say there are plenty of middle astern people of Arabic and Syrians as syric Christians in kerala. Basically these are not at all a surprise. If people can understand these middleastern sense we can even compare a Syrian Christian to Muslims from middeast or we may compare Muslims to a syrian/kananay community. So simple. But these people eventually mixed in to kerala population over centuries such as locally marrying and populated. Any of these featured people in orthodox or Syrian churches can makeup a conclusion of these phenomenons. Sometime I doubt sreenivasan or son veeneth srenivasan seems having these Muslim blood. These can be happen in kerala populations. As I observed or many pointed out that nair are also middleastern.some claim that they do have Persian origin. Basically our connection to Persia or Syria or to the middle astern land is evident and it’s not a surprise. In a way these facts are correct but if we asked too much, not all facts are correct.

Dear Phil,

Your post 5309 is good. You have made very good points. Let your crticis answer your queries.
This Southist bashing has been going on for some time and this must stop. Without a shadow of doubt, the Southists have proven to be far more loyal to their Jewish heritage thant the Northists.

.. and to call Chennai or Pondicherry etc.. ‘South’ is wrong. Chennai, Pondichery is North of Kochi/Trichur etc..

“I thought the St. Thomas Christian story was a myth as well?”

Oh dear! I forgot about it. As per the Knayist theory (compiled by the knayist historians), It was the Knas who evangelised the Nasranis (Northists). But the puzzle here is why didnt the Knas claim the right to have the Arkadecon from their community ?

“If they are in fact St. Thomas Christians what are they doing in Tamil Nadu? How did they get there?
Since when was there persecution of Christians in Tamil Nadu? Is their proof of existence of such a community prior to the 15th century in Tamil Nadu?”

It is a known fact that St. Thomas evangelized parts of Tamil Nadu. In fact he was martyred in Tamil Nadu. Vellallars are the Sudras in Tamil Caste System (like Nairs), includes Mudaliars, Gaunder… etc. Generally wealthy community.
“Why would they practise endogamy if they are St. Thomas Christians?”
>>This endogamy should have been a result of segregation – Probably because they were corrupted by Mechanism or because they were Vellallar caste – Vellalla pillais are considered lower to Nairs in Kerala and not represented by NSS (Chetty Pillai)

“Where do those few “Jewish” customs and songs that the Knanaya preserve come from?”
>> Would you please list a few ‘Jewish’ customs among the Knanaya except those observed by the General Nasrani population ? I dont know about any. Also please show us some proof that they are in fact Jewish customs.

Now about the songs. Hahh! I cant stop laughing. Below is a song about the Kna’s arrival at kodungalloor.

“eerezhu naalu vediyum vechu
vedivechu gopuram kerunnappol
pallithandinmel kodiyum kutthi
kanakam pothinjoru pallithandu”

There should be one more line to add “vedi vedi vedi or pulu pulu pulu”
When & Who did introduce GUN POWDER to the Malabar coast ? (Or Indian subcontinent in general?)
So you knows the authenticity of these songs.

“Why would they create a whole new identity to differentiate them from the St. Thomas Christians?
Is there a piece in St. Thomas Christian history which confirms a schism or migration to Tamil Nadu?”
>> because they are different from the general Nasrani community. So we are talking about Migration from Tamil Nadu. Knanayas are exclusively L haplogroup

Dear Vargheese,

Your post 53318.

You claim beyond doubt that Mar Thoma came to South India and was certainly in Mylapore/Chennai. Now, please give one evidence of this. Just ONE RELIABLE EVIDENCE. Don’t confuse folklore and ‘desires’ with history.

Before you reply, please read well the ‘The Acts of Thoma’ and apart and further, know well that there are atleast 3 places in the world where Mar Thoma is claimed to be buried, Chennai, South America and Edessa.

Please note that I am not denying that we are ‘Mar Thoma Nazerenes’. This very discussion has been covered in the forum atleast 2 times during the last 5 years in this same forum.

Remember two things when studying history.
1) Truth is stranger than fiction.
2) History gets written only by the victor.

Dear George Mathew,

I dont have any proof for this, except for the folklores. In fact I dont need any. As always counter attack or counter criticism, everything should be balanced. So there is no need to counter the ‘Ether’ Stories that the Knanayas are propagating. They have absolutely no proof for what they had published in Malayala Manorama – “Paattil Pothinja Kalam”.

To counter fiction you need only fiction, no need of any DNA testing or Carbon dating. That is my view.

Interestingly you share the same view as mine on history. This what exactly I preach to everyone about history – “History is usually the interpretations of what happened by the victorious”.

As per the the article in Manorama, ‘Thodupuzhakkaduthulla Chunkam Palliyil Sookshichittulla Venthan Mudi Knai Thomakku labhichathanu’. So why dont they go for a Carbon Dating to find out its age ?
And as you think I am not a Southist basher. In truth it is the southists who are manufacturing and propagating these ether stories, ridiculing themselves. I have already pointed out the authenticity of those Songs. The Knanaya Community should first stop dragging others in to these fantasy theories. The article was a Northist bashing one, I simply tried to point out the flaws in it. (there is absolutely no proof of what they said). If you wants to be from Syria, Israel, Jordan, Russia, Greece, or anywhere else, be it so. But manufacture a story on your own, Please dont drag other communities in to these for adding credibility.

Also LOOKING NORTH or LOOKING WEST is an epidemic among us mallus in general. So I am not blaming the Knas as the knanaya are not the only community to propose these theories. Ezhava Community is claiming to have come from Uzhva in Uzbekistan. Thiyya (Northern Ezhava) claims they are from Crete Island of Greece. Nairs says they are from Dwaraka/Ayodhya and the Nasrani in general are cherishing Persian/Syrain/Hebrew cocktail. So the SC & ST would be from further north (Russia or Siberia). So the Parasurama theory is correct.

So my point is what ever you wants to be, dream it and live on your on. Dont put us to shame.
In my opinion the Knanaya Church should withdraw this article and tender an unconditional apology citing the lack of evidence.

Sorry George/Phil if it hurts.

Dear rpsji,

“Why knanayas are not taking the leadership and being a representative group between Syria and Malabar? Today’s Jewish community in Cochin doesn’t matter they mixed; they very well know Hebrew and how come a single knanaya does not even know Suryani or Hebrew?”

Thats a good point. Since they are so close knit, they should have preserved atleast some Syriac/Hebrew language.

Dear George/Phil
Whether you agree or not, An average knanaite life is a lie, a dilution built on some of the most ludicrous urban legends. A people with no understanding but with a lot of pride. They are revolutionaries but with loyalty and obedience. Their leaders are good in forging stories by fudging history and spoon feeds their chicken who then goes on to proclaim their noble origins, superior blood and lineage from every available rooftop and preaches to every nation about the glory of their non-existent past which in truth belonged to someone else. The shepherds are very good story tellers and the flock is not bad in parroting what’s more required, a new identity (a nation ?) is born. These are the blind led by the blind.

With the emergence of Chazhikadan Theory, Knanaism (the then thekkumbavism) emerged out of its renaissance and entered the era of Kna revolution, which is continuing even till this date. Kna fever is gripping the community as a whole, like an airborne epidemic, in the likeliness of the H1N1. Njeezhoor, muttuchira, Uzhavoor, all have became bastions of boasting where the elderly often boast themselves to death. Commoners who are condemned to live around these areas are often boasted to death, or put to the point of suicide on discovering that they are only second class citizens even in heaven – First Right to the Kingdom of heaven goes to Rajamakkal (Mahadever) being the sons of David, tribe of Juda.

The question here is why do the community cultivate such a culture of boasting (with out substance) ?. Why boast ourselves to death for it is written “In flesh will I boast”. Also read Psalm 52 “Why boasts you oh mighty man. Your tongue devices mischiefs like a sharp razor”. It is worth noting that ‘Mahadevar Pattanam’ (a word that appears only in Knanaya websites) translates to ‘Town of superiors’ where as the actual translation is ‘Town of Lord Siva’. Why all this haste to portrait yourselves as superior to others ? If they were that superior how come K.R Narayanan, an LSE educated (ON MERIT)Diplomat from lower caste hindu family became the President of India (a man who has the ultimate word on a billion people), where as his Uzhavoor based superiors didnt made it anywhere near?.

Today Knaism is at its cross roads, Just like any other booming culture/nation it is facing an identity crisis, not about the present but about the past. This is just a repeating of the history. See how the German Barbarians became the Aryans of Noble origin?).People hungry and desperate for an identity, a past that should match the future.

But unfortunately, little is available about the past if any. But that shouldn’t hinder us as and ultimately we are all Obamites these days, full of optimism. YES WE CAN!. But how? Obamites needs to be pragmatic. Come on, If there is a will there is a way. We will boast our way out .Logic is simple, if you don’t have it and can’t have it then fake it. Why not, Glory is cheap when it at the expense of others. The usual tactics are reverse piggybacking (drag others to where we want to go – where ever we go we take you with us.) and trogen horsing. Boasting is not a criminal offence, punishable under law anywhere in the world, but Identity theft is. But they arent that stupid. They do realise that identity theft is an offence punishable under the law, but not applicable to the ancestors. And the result, new stories are born on a daily basis, with forgery and adulteration of history at a level that is unparalleled, unprecedented in the history itself.

These are however Ether stories – Time and space are usually not applicable. (or doesn’t make sense here as imaginations travel faster than light). Knai Thoma and 72 families were welcomed by cannon fire. What a joke. I pity H.H Marthanda Varma on seeing that he waged war against the Dutch to get the secrets of gunpowder when it was already available in his own court. (it was with the Knas for centuries, who were among the nobility and gentry.) See the power of human imagination here. The wildest of these fantasies are even more cosmic (in addition to being comic). They are self evolving, self organising ones like the universe. Initially it was all Syrian theories, later moving to Quana in Lebanon and finally arriving at Jerusalem.

Another interesting story is about the Stone inscription in front of some temple, done in AD345. But the earliest known hindu temple in India (The Mundeshwari Temple)is dated AD108 and Hinduism presumably arrived in kerala in the later centuries only. Also from the documents in the article above, Knai Thoma arrived here some times after 8th century only. Many documents states he married locals.

Also the on the Mulanthuruthy Pally website, it states the church was founded in 11th century, as a northist church and the Southists migrated in the 16th century following muslim attacks who then got representions in the Church bodies and were wealthy. But it also says that the traditions of the church are intact from the time of Knai thoma. So what is the relationship b/w Knanayites and Knai Thoma ? Nothing.

In the wikipedia they portrait the Northists as those from Northern Juda. Now since the community is exclusively L haplogroup, they have bracketed themselves with the Druze. Wiki reads “Ultimate derivation is from the root meaning of “possessive” later meaning “striker” due to renown as smiths among their Kenite ancestors shared with the Druze along with Haplogroup L (Y-DNA) “. Looks like these kenites needs someone to lean up on.

Another finding is that the 12 candlesticks are reminiscent of the 12 tribes. But in the Jewish Synagouges there are only 7 candlesticks. Interestingly in Nasrani Churches we have 6 (3 on each side) candlesticks + Cross. So who is better positioned ?

I wouldn’t be surprised if in few years Steve jobs is made a kna posthumously and stories about the common origin of his Syrian father Abdulfathah John Jandalli and a kna clan (Kujalig) would be brought to light by these remarkable historians. I am not joking Check the list of famous Knas in wiki (There is a myth that it is impossible to be a Kna unless you are born to a Kna father and Kna mother. But that theory is not always true. Anyone can become a Kna – eg. H.H Ignatius Abded Aloho ||, 118th patriarch of Antioch. posthumously he has become a Kna.)

It make sense to me that syrian seems to mix with converts. i see syrian featured women being wife of convert family which who has a story to tell being indian only.
that does prove that how syric influeces we got not necessary because their father side, this could be same case with ancient muslims in kozikode and they preserve arabic in their culture not because they are arabs by now.
when i try to grasp the senerios, there is a push and pull for these matter of syrian features and some community utilze these fact and claim they are jewish people.
i came from a knanaya sourrounder place my hometown ranny and here also i been with some knas
i know few knanaya families that are really seems to me an arab palestian featured people . their light skintone being tall and few other things
rest of the people i see were just average indian dark people.
i would assume that it could happen because as some people mentioning that velluthedathi means
some event happened in the past as result these community become isolated.
might be some jacobites orginal immigrants had some contact outside the nasrani community and could not include them in to the nasrani community, then they become rebel to nasrani community and practing endogamy for having these syrian blood some way.

Dear Vargees Mani…

You are absolutelly right that the knanites are arrived kerala after 8th century AD. Now i remember that my father said me that he read a magazine published by the Knanaya Catholic Community on their 1000 years in kerala published a few years back. In which they mentions that they arrived malankara only in the 9th century.. Now from where did the year AD 345 came from. ? I also heard that the prilate given to the knanaya community by the then ruled king is taken to portuguees (knai thomman cheppedu) during the portuguees period and what is now with them is only a copy of it prepared and given by a portuguees.

I strongly doubts that this AD 345 is actually kollavrsham 345 (which means some year in 12th century) or otherwise some wise tricks while by changing the date from some year in the 9th century to 4th century. Now they found a historic event like the ruling period of the Shapor 2 in persia which made them to flew from persia to kerala. Again one more theory is that it was the catholicos of the east from the syrian orthodox church of anthioch who dreamt about the bad condition (what bad condition?) or the poor situation about the brothers of kerala who were suffering without any leadership ( It is the new story which became popular recently, earlly it was like the nasranis were suffering from the ruling caste).

So he informed the patriarch and send two bishops and 400 people of 72 famillies in two ships to migrate in kerala. They now cleverilly states that it was only after their coming the kerala nasranis were become suriyanis. but they forgots that their church itself ones clames that they arrived in kerala in the 9th century. Ya its true that there was always several migrations from persia, syria, and other parts across the see to kerala. But no one came here due to the sufferings of the nasranis. Because we were the only christine community in the hystory who never suffered from the ruling caste and during the brahminical erra we were accepted as a part of their caste calling us as ancham vedakkar or the fifth vedas. The 72 privilages we enjoyed are almost to similler to the highest caste.

They also says about a second migration from persia to kerala during the 8th century and most interestingly that also under a person called thoma or knai thoma.

Also they clames that the knai thomman cheppedu was written in malayalam. If it is so then how can they come in kerala in 345 since the government language was kodumthamil during those years and malayalam was formed in around and after AD 1000.

If they were here from AD 345 to help and do the leadership of kerala people why dont they try to making any clames about that the arkadeakons are from them only.

All these things shows that whatever the songs they are using its not telling the exact story. all these songs are developed only after the first millenium or may be in the end of the second millenium where people dont know the exact hystory.

They flew from persia because of the then existed cultural and political calmities between them and muslims. They burned their houses and took the ashes with them. There women have the custome of tying this ash on there sari, thats why they are called Charamkettikal by the northists.

Without including the early nasrani, when these suryanis came to malabar, there was a split occurs.
There was some arguments between these immigrant groups that made the king to seperate them.
King gave them privilage and told them to get close to natives.
it says that majority of them started to evangalize the native and add more christians to their community .
therefore history say that actually 472 families, and 400 seperated from 72 and added more natives and the 72 isolated. i read that in few books and a syric notes from pampady college.
These 72 families welcomed many more immigrants and bishops from aboard.
actually regardless of todays kna people there was some people who practiced to stick togethers as orginal syrians and it could happened after few centuries they migrated.
i think eventually everybody become keralites as of now. Therefore suryanis itself there is northist and southist regarless of nasrani community.
it could be true that suryani immigrantion happened leadership of a merchant yet it different from mar sabor mar afroth two bishop brought immigrants which is more persian. Mar denotes it more from persian than anthioch have mor for their bishop.
and these persian immigrants came in qulion while the merchant group came in kodullungoor. and buld few churches one in angamali. and they could be nestorians using east syric as their liturgy.
todays knananya only accept that they brought by a merchant not any bishops
so that is why there could be syrian immigrant and persian immigrants and i think persian immigration could be ther first one.

When St.Thomas arrived in Malankara near Kodungalloor A.D. 52 there were Jews in Kerala ! The Jews in Kerala by then used to talk Aramaya(a Syrian dialect) or suriani that is how he preached gospel in Kerala in Aramaya Language! Syriac was in Kerala before even Knanites arrived here!
Knanites claim they were sent here by Antoichean Bishop/patriarch which is a baseless Statement without any proof! of substantiationI
St.Thomas arrived in Malankara with the help of aJewish merchant ! ancient Kerala had trade relations with Persia,Arabia, and Eagypt!
If Knanites arrived here with Bishop and deacons what happened for Knanites to depend other Syrian Christians Church for their ordinations of priests here in malankara?

Hello,
Post : 53318

I am having trouble deciphering your English so if I misinterpret you, I apologize.

“Oh dear! I forgot about it. As per the Knayist theory (compiled by the knayist historians), It was the Knas who evangelised the Nasranis (Northists). But the puzzle here is why didnt the Knas claim the right to have the Arkadecon from their community ?”

I have heard that before but, is that a fact or just a rumour? Can you provide sources to show that it is an official Knanaya statement? It wouldn’t make sense that the Knanayas would evangelize when they do not allow people to enter their endogamous community.

“It is a known fact that St. Thomas evangelized parts of Tamil Nadu. In fact he was martyred in Tamil Nadu. Vellallars are the Sudras in Tamil Caste System (like Nairs), includes Mudaliars, Gaunder… etc. Generally wealthy community.”

Well known fact? Well please provide some sources to back up this fact. I never heard of Saint Thomas in Tamil Nadu before. It’s already hard to fathom that he had visited Kerala and forze water in the air. It’s Why are you mentioning these castes? I do not understand why you are stating their names.

“This endogamy should have been a result of segregation – Probably because they were corrupted by Mechanism or because they were Vellallar caste – Vellalla pillais are considered lower to Nairs in Kerala and not represented by NSS (Chetty Pillai)”

Segregation? With whom? Corrupted by mechanism? Please calrify I do not understand your meaning. So the Knanayas were of the Vellallar caste? Sources please. Christianity has no place for castes. Assuming what you say is true (if you provide sources!) why would they retain endogamy if they became Christians?

“Would you please list a few ‘Jewish’ customs among the Knanaya except those observed by the General Nasrani population ? I dont know about any. Also please show us some proof that they are in fact Jewish customs.”

The main Jewish customs that I can recount are celebration of passover. Also there is a bathing ceremony similar to Miqve. I remember I knew a Knanaya family who abstained from eating pork however, I believe this is was just a unique incident because many Knanayas I have encountered in the States have no problem with pork.

“Now about the songs. Hahh! I cant stop laughing. Below is a song about the Kna’s arrival at kodungalloor.

“eerezhu naalu vediyum vechu
vedivechu gopuram kerunnappol
pallithandinmel kodiyum kutthi
kanakam pothinjoru pallithandu”

There should be one more line to add “vedi vedi vedi or pulu pulu pulu”
When & Who did introduce GUN POWDER to the Malabar coast ? (Or Indian subcontinent in general?)
So you knows the authenticity of these songs.”

I was referring to the songs that Weil compared to the Yemeni Jews.

“because they are different from the general Nasrani community. So we are talking about Migration from Tamil Nadu. Knanayas are exclusively L haplogroup”

Knanayas are different from the Nasrani community? Last time I checked they were considered a subcomponent of the Nasrani community.

Speaking of the L haplogroup, I recently met a girl of Cochin Jews ancestry. She explained to me that her ancestors had converted to Judaism after working for the Cochin Jews for many years. That got me thinking if the Knanayas were just that…converts to Judaism and then converts to Christianity. Just an idea.

I am not a big believer of the Knanaya myth but, I need evidence! That said, I really am curious on their true origins.

Hello Phil,

Sincere apologies for my poor language. Govt of India is to blame as I had my schooling from a Govt School. Kapil Sibal (on behalf of Ministry of IHRD ) should apologize for any inconvenience caused.
However if it was about ‘Mechanism’ that you got confused with, I do apologize as I meant ‘MANICHAEISM’ which got ‘corrected’ by spelling checker.
now about language, let me quote Martin Luther King ‘I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character’. Now let me twist it to suite the context “It is not the quality of the language but the content which matters’. Yes we are not in a grammer competition, but just to express once ideas. So quality of the language is secondary.

>>>Can you provide sources to show that it is an official Knanaya statement?
Please check any Knanaya website, just try google (Jewish Search engine). Also this was published in full-page in Malayala Manorama by Kottayam Diocese.
I would give one example as a separate post (it is from the Knanaya Jacobite Church History).

>>>It wouldn’t make sense that the Knanayas would evangelize when they do not allow people to enter their endogamous community.
Looks to me that atleast you have some sense.

>>>Well known fact? Well please provide some sources to back up this fact. I never heard of Saint Thomas in Tamil Nadu before. It’s already hard to fathom that he had visited Kerala and forze water in the air
*I have stated in an earlier post to George Mathew that I dont have any valid proof except the folklore ( and common-sense, which I will explain later). And that to contend and ether story you dont need any proof but another ether story, but here Marthoma story is far more credible than Kanithoma story. Why ?
*Check the Church of East history and you will find them saying that the Church had relations with the Malabar Christians as early as the 3rd Century. (i.e just a period of 200yrs max after the apostle story). So who brought Christianity to the shores of Malabar?
*Check the family history of Pakalomattoms. There are various places where St.Thomas’s relics are said to be kept, but all the stories says – brought from India.
*Now the common-sense that I was talking about is about the Syriac/Aramaic which was used early days – Who would buy a book if you cant read it ? But if you already have one from your parents, you would still keep it even though you cant read it. So a syriac speaking/understanding community was here.
*Of all the apostles only Paul was the Apostle to the Pagans, where as the others went for the Jewish diaspora first. And jews were present in the malabar cost from the time of Solomon.
*Interestingly Malbari Jews have a version of history that says the Apostle came in AD52 and they came in AD68. (assuming that earlier settlement were evangelized).
* Now your natural question would be ‘ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU WERE JEWISH’. I didnt because I dont know. But I knows about the Brahmin folklore which I find truthful because I knows about an Idol of Kali, whose head and body are 180 degrees out of phase. This again is proof of the St Thomas Story, but I havent seen it with my Eyes. I will verify it once I see it personally. (I have been told of this Idol by a very revered man)

>>>Segregation? With whom? Corrupted by mechanism? Please calrify I do not understand your meaning. So the Knanayas were of the Vellallar caste? Sources please. Christianity has no place for castes. Assuming what you say is true (if you provide sources!) why would they retain endogamy if they became Christians?

Phil, I will explain this in a detailed post. Mean while please find some time to read Manusmriti.

>>>The main Jewish customs that I can recount are celebration of passover. Also there is a bathing ceremony similar to Miqve.
I said “Would you please list a few ‘Jewish’ customs among the Knanaya except those observed by the General Nasrani population ? I dont know about any. Also please show us some proof that they are in fact Jewish customs.”
So Passover (Pesaha) is a Nasrani Tradition, not Knanaya though they too observe it. Now about the bathing cermony (making the bride and making the groom), they are similar to Mikveh, but are you sure they are indeed the Jewish Mikveh ? You will wonder when you read my next post tomorrow. To quote George Mathew, ‘Truth is stranger than fiction’.

>>>Knanayas are different from the Nasrani community? Last time I checked they were considered a subcomponent of the Nasrani community.

Well, I have nothing to say here as the Knanaya changes there definition on a monthly basis. Wiki page for knanaya is like a Snake skin, Changes for new every month. Last time it was all about how they fought as zealots, what they share with the Druze in addition to the L haplogroups etc… Now they are all gone missing.

I will be posting my little research tomorrow. So find out more about Knanaya Customs, Songs from tomorrow (I am not boasting about what I will be bringing tomorrow, but I find it very convincing and I feel that many others too will find it convincing enough)

The St. Thomas Christians (native Christians of Kerala) lived on the northern side of this Syrian settlement and served their Syrian masters

Phil, now read the official Knanaya version of how the knanaya evangelized the St Thomas Christians, how they liberated them, how they were emancipated, how they were given the syriac language and the name ‘syrian christians’. I discovered this wonderful story of liberation leading to further servitude and slavery 2weeks ago when I was searching for ‘Mahadevar Pattanam’ to check whether there was any kna site which translated it right. To my surprise I found one, and after reading this I fell sick, may be shocked by learning about the servitude and slavery that the community (NASRANI) was under for 17 centuries. I was bedridden for 5days. Still coughing my guts up. Not fully recovered. (Not a joke )

“Later Cheraman Perumal bestowed Knai Thoma and his people with 72 princely privileges and thereby elevated them over 17 castes. This proclamation was made on a Saturday in March (Kumbham 29), 345 and it was recorded on copper plates given to Knai Thoma (known later as the ‘Knai Thomman Cheppedu’). Knai Thoma and his people built a town in Kodungalloor with a church and 72 houses. The place awarded to the immigrants was at “Mahadevar Pattanam” meaning “Town of Lord Shiva and Parvathi”. They were also called Southists (Thekkumbhagar) because they lived on the south side of the Kodungalloor Mahadevar Temple. The St. Thomas Christians (native Christians of Kerala) lived on the northern side of this Syrian settlement and served their Syrian masters. They were liberated from the strictly enforced caste system by payment of money to the caste Brahmins as compensation for their spritual liberation and they consisted of converted Hindus from various caste levels of the Hindu society. They were unified under the singular label of Vadakkumbhagor and were not permitted to identify with their former religion or caste.”

This is from the Knanaya Jacobite Church version. So Knai thomas was the liberator, the emancipator, the socio-religious reformer of the Nasranis. A Rajara Mohan Roy who lived 15 centuries before the name bearer or a Gurudeva in the 4th century ? What a shame. The Knanaya are propagating such stories, shaming a bigger community. This smear campaign is official, Catholic & Jacobite Knas are part of this. But this is heresy, a theme built on lies and fabrications and needs to be torn down. This is the Babel of the Knas, the tower of shame which is built on a basement which belongs to somone else, an encroachment and deserves to be pulled down.

As someone saying northist lived in north side and southist lived in the south side is noting but some baseless ideas. These is absolutely nothing like that.
St thomas came and he visited kodulungoor and many places inside the forest area where jewish settled that they can get more pepper, spices and kuntirikkam and they had small synagoges. i believe nillakkal should have these ancient settlements. so people who where jews and brahimns families converted themselves cast out from their travad and dispersed different part where they can cultivate and live to lead a christian life.
why would they have to camp in a town where king assigned to live only in northern side and southern side? Also as i heard from Mr alexander an expert say actually it not even northern side or southern side rather its was two sides of a river. There was a split occured among these group some went to other side of a river. something like either it was dangerous to comeback once they cross the river or the king never allowed them to do so. the majoriy of these syrian settlement most probably locally married or added christian community and remain who they are. and the southist probably do the samething.
It was not really meant to hate natives but their attempted to mingled natives and they learn and adpated to live in a new land.
IT does prove that most syrian christian do have middleastern features and dravidian influences. and they reason they preseve syric through out these centuries.
many non knanaya family we can easly spot either these syrian ammachis married to a dark husband or a syrian appachen married to a dark wife and about ten childrens in those familes and yet keep on marry to those mix group each other and it is so obvious. and i believe that is what most of the kerala christians.
These local influences made them to week to say we are syrian or jewish and they so much melt to live in the new land because they are mixed and not eveybody has that confidence to say like that and remain silent. this is the same senerio is ethiopia either. but some fake group are really saying they are this and that.

Varghese & Phil:

We should also note that “Thomas Cana” is associated with all Nasranis, and not just the Southists. The Northists also have various stories that trace their origin to Thomas of Cana.

It is only recently in the modern era, as far as I’ve seen, that the Southists alone have started to claim Thomas of Cana. I think this is very likely due to the fact that Thomas of Cana is a very controversial figure, which no evidence at all that remains of his arrival (no copper plates, dates, etc.), and so represents an easy wildcard for the newly formed “Knanaya” movement to assign whatever properties they desire.

I’ve been going through the Kerala Society Papers from the last century, which provides quite a bit of scholarship on Nasranis, cheppads, Thomas of Cana, etc., and one can’t find even the slightest bit of association between the person of Thomas of Cana and the Southists.

Thomas of Cana, like the immigrants with Mar Sabor and Mar Aproth, SabrIso, Iravan Kortan, was just one of the many immigrants from West Asia who formed one part of the ancestry of the Nasranis.

The only difference is there is nothing that remains of Thomas of Cana’s copper plate, whereas the plates of the other communities have survived in some form. And there are plenty of families in Kollam who recall their origins as being from the immigration of Mar Sabor: none of these are endogamous, they are general Nasranis. So the notion of “presevation of pure Syrian blood” is bogus: (1) the Syrians in West Asia are non-endogamous, (2) the Syrian immigrants to India in the distant past were non-endogamous, (3) the Syrian immigrants to India in the recent past were non-endogamous (e.g., the ancestor of Parumala St Gregorios, etc.).

The endogamy of the Southists can thus not be related to any purported “Syrian” origin, since the Syrian and Persian immigrants (and their ancestors in their homelands) are not endogamous. Rather it can only come from (1) a possible Yemeni or Black Jewish origin, or (2) some other locally-generated reason due to the caste system.

(1) is a likely candidate seeing as how the Southists have only appeared in history starting from the 15th century. Which is interestingly very close to the schism in the Black Jewish community that occurred a century earlier. The fact that the Black Jews identify their main ancestor/leader as Joseph Rabban is an obvious parallel to the recent Southist claim of a Bishop Joseph of Eddessa being their leader.

(2) is also possible, when one considers that the Southists never seem to have had any position of leadership in the community until the very modern era (Mar Makkil of the Southist Catholics, and the latter-day Southist bishops in the Southist Jacobites). There are also quite a few legends in which both the Southists and Northists claim the other to be the spawn of Thomas of Cana and a local low-caste convert. The Southist story can’t possibly be true (that the supposed “low caste Northist converts served their ‘Syrian’ masters”) since the Northists have a clear history of leadership amongst the Nasranis, e.g., the Archdeacons, all of the bishops up to the 19th century, etc. So, if caste is the reason, it is likely that the Southists were excluded due to some caste status.

But I think (1) is more likely than (2): I think the Yemeni/Black Jew connection to the Southists is the likely story, and that there is no connection whatsoever to Thomas of Cana. Thomas of Cana was just one of the many ancestors of the Nasranis, who the recent Southist historians have appropriated simply because nothing remains of his history, and so he is a wildcard that anyone can say anything about. The lack of any Southist/Thomas of Cana connection in the literature from just a hundred years ago speaks volumes as to the modernity of the claim that Thomas Cana was a Southist ancestor.

Dear John,

In this article itself there are various accounts of Thomas Kana, but there is no general consensus on who he was or where he came from. Clearly there is no historical link b/w him and the descendants Simon the Zealot. I have read from somewhere else (apart from this article) that Thomas of Cana had two wives, one Middle eastern wife and one local (sometimes referred as a concubine) and that the native woman was a Washer woman from whom came the Southists. This is the reason for the southists tying some ash on to the tip of their daughter’s Kacha when they marry her off. (in the past washer men & women used to carry ash to be used as detergents). The name CKP (charram kettikal) is from this custom. Unfortunately I cant find the page on the internet now.

Since there are no clarity on this Thomas of Cana, the southists have hijacked this historical figure. Tomorrow they will hijack Steve Jobs (because his father Abdulfatah John Jindali was syrian), then they will hijack Obama as he is a Romanichal (as there is a possibility that the Knas are in fact the missing tribe of Romanis – 7th tribe and could this bridge the gap b/w the Romanis and their mother land India – absense of the Indian haplogroup L is the missing link b/w Romanis and India. Romanis are total 6tribes, with Majority being Indian spcecific H group where as Southists says about 7clans with the 7th being Thegumuth which is they themselves – thekkumbagar and are exclusively having the Indian marker – the L group). Since Obama is maternally a STANLEY, a welsh Romanichal. Since Romanis (Gypsies) are also strong contenders in the Universal Jewish boasting Championship, they are also probably Jews and maternal line is valid.

What formed this community is nothing but social/cast exclusion or segregation. Yemeni Jewish origins is a plausible theory as there were a third community called Brown Jews. http://www.shalom2.20m.com/page3.htm reads “There are also few Brown Jews, or MESHUHURARUM, who are descended from emancipated slaves. They became spice merchants business owners and professionals and spoke the local language – Malayalam as well as English “. But it doesn’t hold water any more as we can prove the Kna’s Indian origin beyond doubt.

If the dispute theory is true (and the Thomas of Cana lived in the 15th/16th centuries ) then I knows the family who are the descendants of one of his sons. Their account of history matches this. Unfortunately I cant reveal the details now (unless I get permission from my friend who belongs to this family who lives near to Thodupuzha)

Now about pure blood line or strict endogamy theory – That proves that they are not Jewish. Reason is simple – Jews are the most exogamous community. (just like any other community in the world they tends to marry from with in the community, how ever they accepts converts and wholeheartedly welcome those who marry in to their community. Even ‘Who is a Jew’ is based on maternal line. ie. if your mother is Jewish, you are automatically Jewish. from 2nd century CE, Jews have adopted maternal line. Y chromosome is irrelevant. They are the most diverse community in the world.
Even Abraham was exogamous – Hagar was Nubian and Keturah was Egyptian. Joseph’s wife was Egyptian. Moses married a Medianite women. Jesse’s Grandmother Ruth (wife of Boaz) was a Moabite so was her sister in law (Naomi). So where is the Endogamy ?
Cochin Jews were not endogamous. – “Most of Cochin’s Jews have emigrated (principally to Israel), intermarried, or converted” reads http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/indians.html
Bene Israel were exogamous – “The Bene Israel resemble the non-Jewish Maratha people in appearance and customs, which indicates intermarriage between Jews and Indians.” reads http://www.shalom2.20m.com/page3.htm

Excommunication of men on marrying outside is an Indian tribal tradition. Just like all other peculiar/unique southist customs and traditions, this is also purely indian.
I have my research on “Knas, Canarese from South Kanara or Southerners(trikketiar) from Tanjavur” which I will post it tomorrow. This will undoubtedly prove that the Southists are Purely Indian (just like their L haplogroup which is the Indian marker)

Yet another Timeless priceless piece of information from Knanaya Jacobite history
There is no sense of time or space. True ether story. (moors attacked in 9th & 10th centuries, Gama promised Antiochian supermacy over the Nasrani church… it goes on)
“Milestones

1. Universal Orthodox Christianity established in AD 325 at the Synod of Nicea.

2. Syrian migration consisting of 72 families led by Uraha Mor Ouseph and Knai Thoma in AD 345 establishes Universal Orthodox Church in Malankara to bring St. Thomas Malankara Nasranis under the Syrian Orthodox Church.

3. Knanaya community settles at Kodungallur and establishes a Church at Kodungallur in the name of Mother Mary and organizes the regular visitation of Metropolitans from the Middle East for the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.

4. In the 9th and 10th century, Moors attacked Kodungallur and monopolized exports of spices from the Malabar Coast and many Knanayaites fled Kodungallur to Mulanthuruthy and Kaduthuruthy.

5. In AD1502, the Knanayites welcomed Vasco Da Gama who promised to defend the Malanakara Syrian Orthodox Church against the Moors and to arrange for the safe journey of Metropolitans from the Middle East to Malankara.

6. In AD 1524, Knanayites forced to leave Kodungallur and settle in the Thekkumkur kingdom at Kottayam and Kallissery.

7. In AD 1599, all Churches under the Malankara Syran Orthodox Church were brought under the Roman Catholic denomination at the Synod of Udayamperoor.

8. In AD 1653, a 25000 strong Syrian Christian force led by Itty Thommen Kathnar, vicar of Kallissery St. Mary’s Knanaya Church led a revolt from the Roman Catholic denomination and swore eternal allegiance to the Patriarchal Throne of Antioch.”

Ref: http://www.knanayachurchtoronto.com/index_files/Page594.htm

Dear All,

The Northists claim that the Southists are creating false history. What about the Northists? Almost every Northist Family History traces origin from a Namboothiri family converted by Mar Thoma. It is the pot calling the kettle black.
Further some of you are misleading the readers. The Indian Black Jew/Malabar Black Jew did not follow the maternal style of the Sephardic or Ashkenazi Jews. The Malabar Black Jews were patriachal and very Indian in culture. That is why, the Black Malabari Jews in Israel are even now addressed as ‘Indian’ and not ‘Jews’, though they are Jews. The Black Malabari Jews have nothing other than to share very good memories about Malabar, while the German, Russian, Spanish Jews are quiet about their last resident country.
I am ‘all kudos’ for the Southists for the very high loyalty to their community. The Northists are nowhere near them as far as loyalty is concerned.
I too have heard about this ‘ash’ thing. It is ridiculous that it means that they were washer caste. If you carry a knife with you, does it mean that you are a butcher. If a Brahmin smears ash on his body, does it mean that he burnt his house down?

Why can’t you say that the K women carried ash with them to remind them to be humble or to remind them of the burnt houses they left behind when the fled persecution. Maybe they carried ash with them as an antiseptic or to protect against leeches. Why think negative of our own brother? The K’s may be mudslinging the Northists, if so, then why stoop down to their level. I know Ks who are good respectable people. Why paint them all black.

Listen! The entire Malabar Nazerene community is in a strong mess. Our leadership is very poor and the average member is ignorant of his history and heritage as much as a chicken is ignorant of nuclear science. The more the learned the Nazerene, the more idiocies he spews out. Mar Thoma died in Chennai and he converted Namboothriies it seems!!!!! First of all, we must learn to be independent and not let any one think for us. This was what Steve Jobs advise us. Steve Jobs father was Syrian, but Muslim.

This is something I read in a forum, written by a Knanaya Jacobite.

1.The Kollam Tharisha Pally, is real evidence for the jacobite faith prevalent in malankara before Protuguese Colonialisation. Nestorians do not use the word Tharisha.

2.Kottayam Veliyapally, has a persian cross, which has a sentence, “that Jesus (God) was crucified on the Cross”, however Nestorians believe Jesus (Human) was crucified on cross.

I think these evidences are taken from PT Gheevarghese( Mor Ivanios) book.

Can someone throw some light on the two

T A:

I wrote a detailed response but it hasn’t appeared yet. In case there was a problem in my end, I’ll rewrite an abbreviated version.

1. “Tharisha” is a term that no one really knows the truth concerning. Why do I say this? Well, if you look into it, you’ll see that some people say that it is a form of “Theresa” as in St Theresa’s Church (this would be very strange for a Syriac Church), while other’s like the Jacobites claim it is a form of “ṯrišeṯ” (essentially meaning “orthodox” and forming the title of the Syriac Orthodox Church). The latter is also unlikely: if it was the case, and if all or some Kerala Churches were under the Syriac OC from antiquity, we’d expect far more “Tharisha” churches, where we only see one.

So it is far from certain what Tharisha means, hence, any “proof” based on that is on shaky ground.

Applying Occam’s razor, the simplest explanation is this: Tharisha is a corruption of “Tarsa” (which is also referenced in the literature on Tarsapally), which is the Persian word for Christian — Central Asians and Persians used this in reference to Christians historically. Since “Pally” is a general word for any non-Hindu temple, it is likely that Tarsapally just means Pally of the Tarsas — Pally of the Christians.

Why use a persian word for Christian? Well going back to Cosmas, Kerala was associated with Persian Christianity — that’s ethnic Persian Christianity. Since Kollam was where some immigrants from Persia came (families around Kollam still trace themselves to the immigration from Persia), it is likely that the church they build would be called Tarsapally: they would refer to themselves as Tarsakans. Their copper plate cheppads bear Persian signatures in Pahlavi and Hebrew signatures in Judeo-Persian — so the Persian language in Kerala was clearly in use by the immigrants.

This makes the most sense. Combine this with the fact that in Kerala Christians were referred to by one of two names: Tarisa/Tarsapallikar and Nasrani Mappillai, only amplifies the credence of this theory.

But regardless of your acceptance or rejection of my explanation, what’s irrefutable is that *no* one knows for sure what “Tharishapally” means.

2.
(a) The bracketed terms you quotes are *not* in any of the Pahlavi translations, hence the whole argument above is moot. Remove the brackets and we get the universal truism: Jesus was crucified on the cross. Any Jew/Muslim/Arian/Nestorian/Jacobite/Greek/Roman would accept this term.

(b) If you add the brackets, the point is still moot. As per Bar Hebraeus — the greatest scholar of the SOC — the differences between the Nestorians, Jacobites and Catholics was not theological. He was reluctant to view any of them as heretical. And this is reiterated by the modern Patriarches, Popes, and Catholicoi due to the accords they’ve all signed indicating that their positions are all compatible, but different liguistic variations. So even if the distorted quote above was valid, if it was acceptable to a Jacobite it would be acceptable to a Nestorian or a Catholic. There is nothing in the formula that is even vaguely specific to any write.

(c) Finally, what Mar Ivanios misses is the obvious (apart from the above highly obvious points): The Persian Crosses were written in Pahlavi and bear the forms of other East Syriac Crosses in Central Asia and China. There is no Jacobite cross that looks like the Persian Cross; they have different motifs (which you can see on the web). Moreover, I don’t think that Pahlavi was ever used by the Jacobites. Whereas Pahlavi has quite a bit of usage amongst the Nestorians. The liturgical language of the Nestorian Church of Fars (which had strong association with Kerala, as our former leaders) was Pahlavi, and it is written by them in letters that they send Pahlavi translations to Malabar and the islands (Maldives/Java/Ceylon?).

So in summary: there is nothing incontrovertible to Mar Ivanios’ arguments. Rather there are several holes in them, and there are far more likely theories. Occam’s Razor would cut though Mar Ivanios’ arguments quite readily.

In the Malabar Gazetteer by Innis, we find an early description of the Southists and Northists without the modern innovations of the “Knanaya” terminology.

What’s interesting:
1. As we all know, at that time, Northists and Southists both claimed to be descended from Thomas of Cana, via different wives.

My comment: It seems that Thomas of Cana must have been some ancient figurehead that was the originator of the Christian community in Cranganore, or at least a major patron. I don’t think that he was the sole progenitor of either community, but rather was appropriated by the Cranganore Christian community. This is similar to how Joseph Rabban of the Malabar Jews was appropriated by *both* the White and Black Jews, even though Joseph Rabban was the father of the Black Jews (the White Jews came far later). But the White Jews consider him their hero as well, and the cheppad of the Black Jews is actually in the custody of the White Jews. So this mechanism of appropriation definitely has precedent.

Could the truth be that the Black Jews of Cranganore, after their split from their brothers (the Azar schism), merged with the Christians of Cranganore. But they desired to keep their “ethnic purity” by staying endogamous. However, they appropriated the name of the Cranganore hero, “Thomas of Cana”, whose true origin was lost in the mists of time (many KSP papers refer to Thomas of Cana as being the more ancient immigrant, and so his origins are essentially buried). Thus they were the other sons of Thomas of Cana.

It’s clear that both groups can’t be the genetic sons of Thomas of Cana since the Nasrani Northists are J2 and R1, etc., while the Southists are allegedly L : if they were both descended from Thomas of Cana we’d see a common male line ancestor which we don’t.

2. The Northists are further subdivided into two divisions: those from Kollam and those from Cranganore.

Comment: Could this be the old division mentioned by the Jesuits and referenced in KSP: Tarsapallikar versus Nasrani Mappillai?. Perhaps the Tarsa Northist community were the ethnic Indo-Persian community — perhaps that’s why the Syrian Christian DNA project shows the Tharakan family (Kollam/Thevelakkara) as being R1a1. And perhaps the other community (“Nasrani Mappilai” Northists) were descended from Jewish or Assyrian immigrants (explained by the other stream of J2 that we find in the Northists).

3. The Southists are referred to as:
a) being fairer and having finer features than Northists
b) observing *more* Hindu customs than Northists
c) are endogamous
d) “walk after the way of their mother”

Comments:
(b) is interesting as it may support the Black/Brown Jew theory of mine. The Black Jews were a very old community in Kerala, and judging by their Judeo-Malayalam/Tamil tongue, bear many ancient proto-Malayalam/Tamil markers. Perhaps that’s how the higher number Hindu customs (as Innis reports) crept in to their community?

(d) is particularly interesting to me. Could this be a vague indicator of their true origins as Black/Brown Jews — where the identity of a Jew comes via the mother? If Thomas of Cana was a true father of the Southists, why this emphasis on the mother, as Innis reports? I think this supports my claim that Thomas of Cana was merely a figurehead for the Cranganore Christian community, and when the Black Jews of Cranganore merged with the Christians, they merely appropriated the name of this Christian hero.

By the way, if you look at the German Thesis on the topic of “Knanaya” historical constructions, you’ll see that this process of redefining one’s identity has clear precedent.

NOTE: I don’t write this to disparage the Southist community, but as a contribution in helping us all to understand this. I don’t think there is anything dishonorable in what I’ve written (e.g., compared to the “fisherman community”, “washerwomen-as-mother”, “Manichaean chetty” theories that one finds by people who, rather than wanting to understand the truth, merely want to put down and insult the Southists. I don’t want to do that. I think I’ve proposed a very reasonable theory here, that is far better — and, as a side effect, more honorable than the existing theories).

“people who, rather than wanting to understand the truth, merely want to put down and insult the Southists” – John Mathew
“Why think negative of our own brother? The K’s may be mudslinging the Northists, if so, then why stoop down to their level. I know Ks who are good respectable people. Why paint them all black.
The more the learned the Nazerene, the more idiocies he spews out. Mar Thoma died in Chennai and he converted Namboothriies it seems!!!!!” – George Mathew.

John/George, I am not a Kna basher as you suggest . I have Kna relatives and friends. There are women folks (plural) who have been married in to my family from Kna community. I have a cousin sister married in to a Kna family (bringing Gene pollution to the Northist community as per Kna ideology). I have friends, especially a very close friend whom I regard brotherly, again from Kna community. These people are little sceptical about all these ‘PURE RACE’ theories and critical about the excommunication, which they says is tearing families apart. It is unfortunate that I have been branded as a Kna basher. I would draw parallels to people calling Subramaniyan Swamy ‘Hindu Extremist’, just because he spoke some truth where as his own wife a Parsi, son in law in a Muslim and Sister in Law Christian. Just because I pointed out some unpleasant truths, I dont become a Kna basher. Would I ?

If I have said something incorrect or stated some untruth, then ask me for proof. Closing your eyes wont make the sun set. George Mathew, you are completely silent on the facts that I have brought up about the follies of this community in its search for an identity, the stupidity that they excercise in self promotion, the falsification and adulteration of history that frequents in their inventions, and above all the smear campaign that they are engaged in to project themselves of being from the ‘TOWN of SUPERIORS’. Have I brought in something that is just my own wild imagination ? I believe I havent.

I dont want to insult any community, but if you find something insulting then that is just a coincidence as I have brought up something that disproves their theories which are or something that cements some already existing antithesis. Washer woman story is not mine. I will bring proof for this. As said earlier I will be posting my research on the southists today.

I am sad that people fails to find the elephant in the room but spots the ant in the garden.

John, you have elevated yourself to sainthood by posting a honourable piece of historical information where as you have degraded me to the levels of Charles Taylor, Omar Al Bashir, Milosevic, Mladic and Karadzic. Let me correct – There is nothing honourable/dishonourable when you are in search of history. Fact is fact.

Thanks,
Varghese bar Mani,
The Horrible Knanaya Basher

Admin, I have some interesting findings about the Kna origins, these are however pointing to Salem instead of Jerusalem. If required (since many see me as a Knanaya Basher) I could email it first for a review, rather than posting directly. I dont know whether it would qualify to be an article on Indian origin of the Knanaya Community. But it will bring some good observations and facts.

T A:

Mor Ivanios’ book was just one of many pieces of Puthenkoor propaganda that aimed to present the Malankara Puthenkoor as being the “old” faith of Malabar. There is nothing worthwhile in it. Specifically:

1. Kollam Tarisa Pally

The claim here is that the unknown word “Tarisa” is somehow cognate with “ṯrišeṯ”, the term that the Syriac Orthodox Church uses for “orthodox”. (See wiki for the official syriac name of the SYriac Orthodox Church and you’ll find the word there).

In fact, however, no remains of Tarisapally exist nowadays. So we have no clue of what the Church was called. Some claim it was “St Theresa’s Church” (farfetched of course), some claim it’s “ṯrišeṯ”, and others claim “Tarsapally” — the point: this is a wildcard that every group likes to impress their own interpretation onto. Clearly, the Jacobites want to “prove” that Syriac Orthodoxy existed in India prior to Nestorianism, and since they (we, since I’m technically in that Church, though I think their attempts at historical revision are vile) have no real proof, they use this wildcard to introduce a “possibility” (this is a common Kerala Christian game it seems).

What’s likely? Well, we know Kollam was colonized by Syriac/Persian immigrants led by Mar Sabor and Mar Aproth. And we know that Persian Christians were observed in Kerala from the earliest era (ref: Cosmas, the Pahlavi crosses, the Pahlavi signatures on the cheppads, etc). And the cheppads from the time of this immigration have the Pahlavi (Persian) signatures.

Well, Tarsa *is* the Persian word for Christian. And Tarsa happens to be referred to in the literature when talking about Tarisapally. Some call it Tarsa Pally some call it Tarisa Pally. Tarsa Pally makes a lot of sense: the Pally of the Tarsas (Christians, Persian Christians). Similar to how a Muslim Pally is the Pally of the Muslims. The term Pally is used by both semitic foreigners, Muslims and Christians. Cosmas talked about “Persian Christians” in Kerala. Apply Occam’s Razor here: what is most likely?

You don’t have to accept my facts, but you should be aware that the meaning of “Tharisa” is hardly definitively known. It’s unknown, and the meaning is lost in the mists of time. There is definitely no Syriac inscription that would clarify this (let’s be honest: Syriac has no attestation in Malabar prior to the 1300s. Pahlavi goes back to the 6-8th centuries with plenty of attestation).

Incidentally, in Kerala Society Papers, there’s an article mentioning a Jesuit report about how in ancient times Christians in Kerala were referred to by two names: some were called Tarisa/Tarsapallykar, and others were called Nasrani Mapillas. Could it be that these represented different groups based on origin? Tarsas being the Persians or Indo Persians, and Nasranis being Western Asians or Indo Syriac/Arab/Jew? (Nasrani is the Arabic word for Christian, it has Syriac use as well, and may have Jewish origin, if one accepts the Nazarene connection).

2. Short story: there is no basis here.

The sad thing about the Syriac Orthodox Church is their intellectual/philosophical greatness lies in the past. Specifically, their greatest mind was Bar Hebraeus. It’s all downhill from there. And Bar Hebraeus was of the opinion that there was no substantial theological difference between Orthodox/Catholic/Church of the East. And modern scholars of those Churches would agree, given the accords that were signed by all of them (Patriarchs, Catholicos-Patriarchs, and Popes) in recent years indicating that their Christological formulas are just different linguistic variations of the same underlying concept. So what the Church of the East believes is not at all incompatible with what was written on the Persian Crosses (if that translation is indeed correct).

But let’s go further: what language is on the Persian Crosses? Pahlavi. Is there even one example of Pahlavi Jacobite literature? No way! The Jacobites’ most eastern territory was Mosul. They were a western Asian Church — using Syriac and, later, Arabic. Pahlavi is the language of the Persians. The East Syriac Church of Fars (which had metropolitanate authority over India historically) is on record translating liturgical material into Pahlavi *and sending it to India*. So the only example we have of Pahlavi Christian literature is from the East Syriac (“Nestorian”) Church.

And the same motifs as our Persian Crosses are found on the Chinese “Nestorian” Crosses — and they were definitely East Syriac (Nestorian), and not Jacobite.

And finally: you should know that there are many interpretations of what was written on the Persian Cross. Pahlavi is a difficult language to read for various reasons, and the Persian Crosses in India are all copies of a few originals. And the copies were made by people who didn’t know Pahlavi. You can read about the various readings — so it’s not at all certain what was written. Some of the letters are mirror images, upside down, etc. (obviously on the copies a latter day Indo-Persian descendant made the copy, having long forgotten Pahlavi).

So the point here: (1) the Persian Crosses were written in Pahlavi, and only the Nestorians have any track record of writing Pahlavi Christian literature (2) the translation above may not be correct and (3) even if correct, there is nothing Jacobite about them that precludes the use by Nestorians.

Finally, the translation above is faulty: the bracketed terms (“God” and “Human”) are nowhere to be found in any of the translations. “Jesus was crucified on the Cross” without any of the misleading bracketed terms is acceptable by everyone, heretic or not, arian or orthodox or catholic or jacobite or nestorian or muslim or even jewish.

There is a lot of junk logic being presented, as well as partial facts, and propaganda by various vested interests. There is a lot at stake for these individuals, since their reason for existence is predicated on their proof of antiquity. Unfortunately the Jacobites are on the loosing end here: they have nothing at all to justify their antiquity beyond the 17th century. But is there anything wrong with that? I think the Jacobites have to come to terms with respecting and honoring their rite regardless of how new it is in India. There’s nothing wrong about being *Puthen*-koor.

Dear all,

the washerwoman story is in the paper ‘St. Thomas Knanaya Christians of India and the Jews of Malabar’ pulblished in theological journals by Dr. Rajkumar Boaz Johnson, Professor Bible and Theological Studies. North Park University, Chicago. He may be Jewish Christian or a Jew of Malabari descent (Boaz is a Jewish name). This paper is however part of the book ‘The Old Testament as authoritative Scripture in the early churches of the East’ by Vahan Hovhanessian. (available in googlebooks for preview).

The paper reads about the Legend of Thomas of Cana as
“had two wives: one from the Middle East and the other fromn an Indian Nayar family. ”
(1.) Southis’s perspective of the story – “The southists, who also call themselves the Knanaya, claim that they are the descendants fo the woman of Cana who came along with Thomas of Cana. The Northists there for claim of higher caste category, while the Knanaya community claim to be of pure Jewish descent. The Northists have had, as a result of this a better relationship with the high caste Hindu rulers, while the Knanaya Christians have been considered to be of lower caste. ”
(2)Northists perspective of the story – “The stories from a Northist perspective are quite different. They call the wife of Thomas who produced the Southists, a dhobi, i.e a low caste woman. This is an attempt on the part of the Northists to portray themselves to be closer to the Hindu-pure Brahmin caste. ”

Southists explanation of lower status isnt truthful as (a) Nairs were shudras, lowest of the four varnas, (b) Jews enjoyed privilaged status.

In this paper he is parallels b/w the Malabari Jews and Knanaya, and goes on to suggest that they could share a common origin based on some circumstantial evidences, just as the way John Mathew is heading. He seems to be drawing quick conclusions with out observing the general nasrani community ( many rituals) , the traditions among Hindu communities and some general practices in Orthodoxy. His observations looks acceptable as long as you dont look elsewhere.
For example
1. ‘Kiss of hand’ observed by Knanaya (note that his observations are drawn from the Knanaya Jacobites) is similar to the jewish custom. But this is however observed by the entire Orthodox community, including the Russians who were allegedly ‘still on Trees’ when the Jewish culture was in its age of boom and its doom (Note that I am just saying this to emphasis that this is just an orthodox practice, now prevalent among the then ‘barbarians’ , Russians were civilized only in the 6th 7th centuries)
2. About the marriage rituals which are obviously of Hindu origin (far more similar to the Vellalla, Mukkulathor & Dhanger tribes and other Hindus in General. I explains this in my ‘research’ which i am going to post today), but may look to have been of Jewish origins.
3. Liturgy which is just Jacobite liturgy
4. Death rites – 40days of mourning, which is pula observed by the whole Nasrani community.
5. Blessings at death-bed which again is common practice among the whole of Nasranis.
6. Tali, Chupah aka pandal etc.. are used by both Northists and Southists. (but he says Knanaya brides father gets bride money – ha ha ha..)
7. Christology and lectionary are fully bestowed up on the Knanaya community.
8. Yogam – Jewish adat aka Yogam is portrayed as similar to Knaish 2-tier Community gathering – Yogam + Manram (Tamil origin)
9. He has mistaken a portuguese traveller’s (Guevera) description of Kudumy by nasranis as Side curls & Clips by Knanaya.

He however makes the following observations which are more or less correct.
“The upper castes historically formed about 9 percent of the population of India and that the low caste, the Shudras have formed approximately 52 percent fo the population, with the rest divided between aboriginal tribes, dalits and other religions. ”
This observation is correct as the Nair community originally used to be a near majority of kerala (about 30% in 1850). (Note that Nairs were origianlly shudras who later gained power, mostly being cousins of Namboothiris, by social upliftment of shudras as explained in Manusmriti, and to the Namboothiri it was – ‘nayar thottalashudham nasrani thottalshudham’.). Ezhavas, Dalits and Muslims were outcastes, who didnt belonged to the varnas.

Also reads “In their formation traditions, it seems clear that the St.Thomas Knanaya Christians have sided with the low castes and the Dalit, outcaste poeples groups. In actualizing the biblical narrative, and making it their own narrative, the Knanaya Christians elevate the status of their low caste to Jewish origins.” – which again shows the lower status of the Knanaya which points to possible segregation leading to ‘ENDOGAMY’

Conclusion.
1. Washer woman story is an existing one, not any of my inventions
2. The Kna Jacobites wild fantasy of ‘Northists serving their Syrian Masters’ is nonsense as the Knanaya community’s reasoning of their low caste status is described.
3. Segregation theory is better placed to be the historical truth.

Tharisa in ‘St. Thomas Knanaya Christians of India and the Jews of Malabar’ by Dr. Rajkumar Boaz Johnson
This paper/book, also reads “Teh Jews of Cochin are regared by St.Thomas Christians as precursors to Christianity. Both have traditions which link the bibilical Narratives to India. As early as the 10th Century BC, …..The ‘Ophir’, or the Land of Gold Kgs 9:28, is the capital of indian Kingdom of Aparanta which was on the west cost of India, It streatched from Bombay to Kerala” (This should have been somewhere near manglore, I think)
“Other traditions link Tarshish to an indian city in the present state of Kerala, near Quilon, Tharisa,Kgs 10:22, ‘For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, silver, ivory, and apes and peacocks.”

Little bit of facts – Malabar had trade with Palestine and Egypt far earlier.
Reasons
1. Job had 3 daughters who were the most beautiful young ladies in the whole land, namely Jamimah (Dove), Kezia (Cinnamon) and Keren-happuch. Now, Job was probably a contemporary of Moses or his father. Cinnamon was originally grown in Ceylon only, and probably in Kerala. (Cinnamon is native to Ceylon, Pepper – Malabar, Incense – Oman, Cloves and Nutmeg from Java and Sumatra).
2. Pharaoh’s mummy had pepper stuffed on to his nose (dont remember the dynasty but pre-dates Israel?

John’s observation about the Persian word is more likely than this Tarshish as ‘Tarsa’, originally meaning ‘worshipper of fire’ in persian also has a meaning ‘follower of the christ’.

So it is either (1) Tarsis – Christian (2) Tharshish – Malabar Country.

Dear TA, I have some corrections here (On John’s post).

This is not a puthencoor propaganda, but only a Jacobite propaganda. Puthencoor includes the Malankar Orthodox as well and they acknowledges the proper historical facts. (in-line with the ‘catholic lies’. That leaves the Jacobites alone, but they can relax as there is a reward for upholding the truth and for integrity.

Nazerene or Nasrani is not arabic. INRI or ‘iesus nazarenus rex iudaeorum’ translates to “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews”. So Narani/Nazerene means a Christian or follower of the Nazarene. So it was probably Latin, adopted by Arabic & Aramaic/Syriac.

#”Jesus was crucified on the Cross” without any of the misleading bracketed terms is acceptable by everyone, heretic or not, arian or orthodox or catholic or jacobite or nestorian or muslim or even jewish.#
wrong – A muslim can never accept this. Act of crucification is vehemently denied by Islam. So is resurrection. As per Islamic ideology, Jesus escaped crucification (apparently used deception), and an imposter/decoy was crucified. This is Islamic ideology, thus denies resurrection (and nullifies the hope of salvation) is ‘a denial of the ACT of HOLY SPIRIT’ as per Christian theology which is the most abominable sin.

tarshis means ‘sea cost’ in sanskrit/aryan language? (fars/phalvi ?)
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/tarshish.html

TA,
This is not just a knananya blogger’s version of history, but official Jacobite history, which is taught in sunday school to children. It is in Lesson 25, The Second Syrian Immigration. (first being Knanaya migration.). Since they are promoting this version of history, even teaching the children at sunday schools, they can never retract. This version of history was prepared by 3-4 people, including Knanaya historian E.M.Phillip or Pothachan in 1890s which is why the Knanaya stuff has crept in as the first Syrian Migration of AD345 which has no historical proof. (in the jacobite version it was the Partriarch of Antioch who had the vision where as the Knanaya Catholic version says the Partriarch of the Church of East had a vision).(This is what I meant trogen horsing in my earlier post, which everyone finds just Knanaya bashing)

According to this history Nestorians ruled only from 1490 to 1597 when the Church of Antioch was constant attacks from Moors and failed to send bishops where as the Nestorian Partriarch tried to steal the opportunity and the Nestorian bishops got the seats as the Malabar Christians had devised the FIFS (first come first served) policy. See the deception of the COE. Feels very funny. So they (WE) used to switch theology and liturgey on a periodic base, based on FIFS ?? (Appol Kandavane Appa Ennu vilikkuka. ha ha ha.. ).

Another proof stated is that ‘feast of Mor Sabore & Mor Afroth on July 2nd is celebrated only at Jacobite chruch of Akkarapparambu. That is quite true as All Saints churches doesnt celebrate the feast of Mor Sabore and Mor Afroth.

However, the Malankara Orthodox Church which shares a common history with the Jacobites has a different version, which is in line with the ‘Catholic lies’. They clearly states that we were all under the Church of East before the Portuguese.
see the history page in the Church’s official website.
http://mosc.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=150 reads – “At least from the fourth century the Indian Church entered into a close relationship with the Persian or East Syrian Church. From the Persians, the Indians inherited East Syrian language and liturgies and gradually came to be known as Syrian Christians.In the sixteenth century Roman Catholic missionaries came to Kerala. They tried to unite the Syrian Christians to the Roman Catholic Church and this led to a split in the community. Those who accepted Catholicism are the present Syro-Malabar Catholics. Later Western Protestant missionaries came to Kerala and worked among Syrian Christians; That also created certain splits in the community.In the seventeenth century the Church came to a relationship with the Antiochene Church which again caused splits. As a result of this relationship the Church received West Syrian liturgies and practices”.

Now, it is interesting to see that the Antiochean Church history is muted on Malankara.
see partriarchy/history. on http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.syrian-orthodox.com%2F
The Antiocheans are simply truthful, not defending the untruth.

The church of East however has some clear view on its relationship with the Malabar. see wiki for details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_%28East_Syrian_Ecclesiastical_Province%29#cite_note-1 reads – “India(Syriac: Beth Hindaye) was an ecclesiastical province of the Church of the East, at least nominally, from the seventh to the sixteenth century…. there were certainly Nestorian Christians in India as early as the 3rd century. The Indian Christian community were initially part of the metropolitan province of Fars, but were detached from that province in the 7th century, and again in the 8th, and given their own metropolitan bishop. Due to the distance between India and the seat of the Patriarch of the Church of the East, communication with the church’s heartland was often spotty, and the province was frequently without a bishop. As such, the Indian church was largely autonomous in operation, though the authority of the Patriarch was always respected.”

There is referrence to Mar Afroth etc.. as Indian tradition only (COE doesnt seems to have clear records at this period)
There is also a reference to Arakadeyakon in this page. It says about the Old Christian settlement at Kalyan which existed till 1350s when they were forcefully converted by the Muslim Nawab. Spir should have been Shapur as seen here. Shapur is a Parsi name as well.

“A few decades later, according to the sixteenth-century Portuguese writer Diogo do Couto, the Malabar church sent a delegation to Mesopotamia to ask for new bishops to be sent out to them. Their old bishops (perhaps Shapur and Peroz) were dead, and their church had now only one deacon surviving. The catholicus thereupon consecrated a metropolitan named Yohannan for India, and two suffragan bishops, one of whom, ‘Mar Dua’, was appointed to the island of Soqotra, and the other, Thomas, to ‘Masin’, traditionally identified with southern China. Yohannan fixed his metropolitan seat at Cranganore. These events seem to have taken place around 880, perhaps during the patriarchate of Enosh.”

The ‘only one deacon surving’ should be about the Arkadeyakon. Soqotra should be Sumatra.

“The Mosul patriarchs also attempted to reassert their control over the Syrian Christians of India around the beginning of the eighteenth century. The metropolitan Gabriel of the Urmia diocese of Ardishai was sent to India in 1704 by the Nestorian patriarch Eliya XI Marogin —————- Gabriel proceeded to offer a lively opposition to the Jacobite metropolitan Thomas IV. Forty-two churches came over to him, leaving the Jacobites with only twenty-five. Thomas appealed to the Jacobite patriarch at Antioch for help, but without response. The Jacobites only fully recovered their hold on the Malabar church after Gabriel’s death in 1739.”. Looks like the Jacobites will never accept the history.

So my question is ‘Why do they (Jacobites) say ‘Mar Athanasius College’ instead of Mor Athanasius College ? Was he a Nestorian ?”. Again, people fails to find the Elephant in the room and have spotted the Ant in the garden. Never mind, just a chronic case of hypermetropia. With in a short period they will have to compile another history as the Jacobite parishes are eaten alive by Brotheren and Church of Gold.

- So be careful when you read ‘History’ from Jacobite Church/blogs (Just as if it were a Knanaya blog)

Kongu Vellalla Wedding || Knanaya Wedding
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Knanaya Wedding and Vellala wedding are strikingly similar with most of the unique customs being common among both. Both have participation from other castes, especially Barber. Chantham Charthal in Knanaya wedding involves ceremonial shaving by the Barber, which is the same in any Vellala wedding. (NOTE that in a Jewish wedding this ceremony finds no place as Jews were required to have side curls and observant Jews dont even shave). The similarities doesnt end there, Mylangi (or henna), Paalum Pazhavum, Kaipidutham, Nellum Neerum, Vazhupidutham.. almost all are same or similar. Turban used by the Arumaikkaran is the similar to that used by the Ammavan in kacha thazhukal. Check the following websites for details.
http://konguvellalagounderhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/kongu-vellala-gounder-history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongu_Vellalar
http://www.anrbstudios.com/clients/a-gounder-extravaganza/
http://knanayafamily.com/knanaya_marriage_customs.aspx

Now we go through the Vellala Wedding customs. A general description is – “The marriages of Kongu Vellalar are celebrated for three consecutive days The First day event The first day event is called ‘Naal virundhu’. On this day, close relatives of the bride and bridegroom will host feast for the bride’s family and bridegroom’s family respectively. The Second day event On the second day, marriage arrangements will be done by brining together all relatives. Events such as erection of pandhal (temporary shed), cutting of ‘Muhurtha Kaal’, hairdressing of bridegroom by kudimagan, informing the marriage event to village community by drum beating, hosting of feast for the relatives in the bride’s family as well as bridegroom’s family, bridegroom leaving for the bride’s house will take place on the second day. The marriage event will take place in bride’s house. The Third day event The mukurtham will take place on third day. The bride and the bridegroom will be seated on the marriage platform on completion of appropriate rites. The thaali (mangala naan) will be tied by the bridegroom around the bride’s neck and mangala vaazhthu song will be recited.”

Cross-Cousin Marriages
———————–
The practice of cross cousin marriages like the other south and central Indian people is also followed though lesser in these days. Note that Cousin marriages are there (used to be frequent) among Knanaya as well..

Unique, Rich in Customs & rites
——————————-
*Kongu Vellala Gounders-Ceremonial Rites in Marriages The various rites being performed nowadays in the marriage ceremony of Kongu Vellalar community are unique in nature. Each and every rite is performed for some specific reason. The original rites performed centuries ago in Kongu Vellalar marriage ceremony which resembled ‘Sanagam’ age rites have undergone minor changes and modifications from technology and consequent changes in customs, habits and facilities. Some rites have ceased to exist because of their having become obsolete.The rites which are being performed nowadays in Kongu Vellalar marriage ceremony reflect the superior character, rich culture and high tradition of Kongu Vellalar community.

Their marriage rituals follow the Kshatriya pattern and therefore necessarily involve service castes participation. (Anthanar *Naavidhan (Barber) *Vannaan (Washer man) *Potter (Vetkovar) *Paraiyars (Men from paraiya caste) *Kammaalar *Pandaaram *Maadhaari (shoemaker) *Porutham paarthal (Examination of the agreement of horoscopes) *Sagunam paarthal)

All the ceremonial rites relating to Kongu Vellalar marriage are performed by ‘arumaikaarar’ ,arumaikaari, naavidhan (barber), washer man (vannaan) and such others who are closely associated with the occupation of Kongu Vellala Gounders.
Naavidhan (Barber): Next to arumaikaarar, the naavidhan (barbar) plays an important role in conducting the rites of the marriage ceremony of Kongu Vellalar. The naavidhan is called ‘Kudimagan’. The Kudimagan’s important works in the conduct of the marriage are to invite all relatives for the marriage, to perform each and every rite of the marriage ceremony along with the arumaikaarar, to recite the ‘mangala vaazhthu’ song and to announce and call the relatives concerned before performing each rite.

NOTE that the barber when performing chantham charthal would ask the audience about 17 castes .

Now compare individual rituals observed at the marriage.
‘Kaithalam pattrudhal’ are rites which point out the rights and responsibilities of the bride and the bridegroom
Kaipidutham– This is an initial agreement and engagement in which are involved not only the spouses, but also their parental relatives. Betrothal itself is called Kaipidutham which is indicative of the clasping of hands by the paternal uncles

see the ‘Making the groom’ & ‘Barber getting the groom ready’ at the link to ‘a-gounder-extravaganza’, is not the same as ‘Chantham Charthal? ‘
Chantham Charthal – On the eve of the marriage, the groom’s face is ceremoniously shaved by the barber in the pandal in the presence of the assembled. It is called Chantham Charthal which means beautifying. The barber asks formal permission from the assembly reminding them of their protective rights over seventeen castes, a privilege granted by King Cheraman Perumal. “I ask the gentlemen here who are protectors of 17 castes: May I shave the bridegroom? He has to ask this three times. After getting the consent of the assembled the barber shaves the groom’s face and takes him out to apply oil on his head and give him bath

Check the ‘making the bride’ at the link to ‘a-gounder-extravaganza’ to see the bride with menhdi(mylanchi/henna).
Mylanchi Ideel – On the eve of the marriage there is a ceremony at the home of the bride in which the bride’s palm of the hand, feet and the nails are smeared with a special yellow ointment called Mailanchi. Also check the ‘Bride and groom wearing new sandals to signify a new beginning’ to see the mehndi applied on her feet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehndi says “In some Hindu festivals, every woman tries to have Henna done on her hands and feet. It is usually drawn on the palms and feet”

nellum Neerum isnt the same as ‘Events such as steaming of paddy (nel vega vaithal)’, but concept is same.

Paallum Pazhavum – Milk with sliced fruits is brought to the couple in a cup and they both drink from the same.
Palum Pazhavum (This is a tradition among many Tamil communities including Iyers, Vellalla etc.)
See the Kerla Vellala Mahasabha website for details.
http://www.kvms.info/6.htm page 6 on vellala customs or page 4. (note that vellala Thali is hexagram or Magen David.)

The rite ‘naattukal valhipaadu shows that any important event or activity is commenced only after paying regards and respect for community leaders and obtaining their blessings.
Vazhu Pidutham – The rite of giving God’s blessing to bride and groom by the mother of bride by placing her hands in the form of a cross on th….

Mangala Vazhthu song is performed after the kongu gounder marriage
Vazvenna … is sung at Kna Marriage reception.

Nada Nada Nada by men & Kuravai by women is part of Knanaya wedding
Now see that Kuravai is part of all Tamil Marriages, including Vellallar

Endogamy & concept of Pure blood
——————————–
Another known fact about gounders is that they are highly conservative and do not marry anyone out of their caste and if done so they exclude that person from their families.

We have seen that Knanaya Customs & rituals have striking parallels with those of Vellallars.
Now see the similarities of Knanaya marriage Customs, rituals and social life with Mukkulathor Community (Kallar). NOTE that all Vellalla wedding customs are more or less shared by the Mukkulathor as well. It is also worth mentioning that like the Knanaya, Kallar (and presumably whole of the Mukkulathor due to their common origins) are majority L haplogroup. In the DNA posts, Kizhakken has pointed out that some Knanaya have matches with the Kallar YDNA. Just as the Knanaya are called southists in kerala, Mukkulathors are called Southerners or Thrikketiyar. (meaning. – thekkumbhagar)

Mukkulathor – Kallar (Kalian), Maravan & Agamuiyan
http://www.archive.org/stream/castestribesofso01thuriala/castestribesofso01thuriala_djvu.txt
http://devarbook.blogspot.com/2010_03_01_archive.html

Origins
——–
Concerning the connection which exists between the Maravans, Kalians, and Agamudaiyans, the following is one version of a legend, which is narrated. The father of Ahalya decided ………

Vellalla Customs & Immitations.
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Of the three castes, Kalian (Kallar), Maravan and Agamudaiyan, the last are said to have ” alone been greatly influenced by contact with Brahmanism. They engage Brahman priests, and perform their birth, marriage, and death ceremonies like the Vellalas.” * I am told that the more prosperous Agamudaiyans in the south imitate the Vellalas in their ceremonial observances, and the poorer classes the Maravans.
The Kallar ryots, who inhabit the villages along the banks of the Cauvery, in their dress and appearance generally look quite like Vellalars.

A Mukkulathor can become a Vellala. (social upliftment) How ?
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There is a Tamil proverb to the effect that a Kalian may come to be a Maravan. By respectability he may develope into an Agamudaiyan, and, by slow degrees, become a Vellala, from which he may rise to be a Mudaliar.

Historical Proof ::- The Agamudaiyans, Mr. W. Francis writes, are “a cultivating caste found in all the Tamil districts. In Chingleput, North Arcot, Salem, Coimbatore and Trichinopoly, they are much less numerous than they were thirty years ago. The reason probably is that they have risen in the social scale, and have returned themselves as Vellalas. Within the same period, their strength has nearly doubled in Tanjore, perhaps owing to the assumption of the name by other castes like the Maravans and Kalians. In their manners and customs they closely follow the Vellalas. In some districts, Agamudaiyan occurs as a synonym of Vellalas, Pallis and Melakkarans, who consider that Agamudaiyan is a better caste name than their own.

Mukkulathor (Kallar,Maravan & Agamudaiyans) are also known as Southerners
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In the Tanjore district the Agamudaiyans are called Terkittiyar, or southerners, a name which is also applied to Kalians, Maravans, and Valaiyans. The ordinary title of the Agamudaiyans is Servaikkaran, but many of them call themselves, like the
Vellalas, Pillai. Other titles, returned at times of census, are Adhigari and Mudaliar.

Kingly Children (Raja Makkal)
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At the census, 1S91the following were returned as the more important sub-divisions of the Agamudaiyans : — Aivali Nattan, Kottaipattu, Malainadu, Nattumangalam, Rajaboja, Rajakulam, Rajavasal, Kalian,Maravan, Tuluvan (cf. Tuluva Vellala) and Servaikkaran. The name Rajavasal denotes those who are servants of Rajas, and has been transformed into Rajavamsa, meaning those of kingly parentage.

Endogamy, the Vellalla way
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£ – In the Census Report, 1901, it is recorded that ” in Madurai the Kallars are divided into ten main endogamous divisions * which are territorial in origin

Truely endogamous – Pure blood
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£ – Unlike the Maravans and Kalians, the Agamudaiyans have no exogamous septs

We have already seen that a Mukkulathor would become a Vellala and most of their customs are rituals resembles the later. Once they becomes Gounders there is no difference at all in the customs observed. Here we go through the customs and rituals traditionaly observed by the Mukkulathors in general.

Pandal (booth NOT CHUPPAH), Shave (Barber), and Separate Ceremonies
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From the day on which the pandal is erected until the wedding day, the contracting couple have to go through the nalagu ceremony separately or together. This consists in having their bodies smeared with turmeric paste (Pkaseolus Mungo paste), and gingelly (Sesamipm) oil. On the wedding day, the bridegroom, after a clean shave…..

Question Hour & the Questionnaire -House of David, Tribe of Judah, Sons of Abraham (Indra Kulam, Thalavala Nadu, Ahalya Gotra)
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The bride’s people question the bridegroom’s party as to his sept, and they ought to say that he belongs to Indra kulam, Thalavala nadu, and Ahalya gotra.

Nada Nada Nadaye + Kurava idal …Kurava idal
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The newly married couple sit on a plank, and coloured rice-balls or coloured water are waved, while women yell out ” killa, ilia, ilia ; killa, ilia, ilia.” This ceremony is called kulavi idal, and is sometimes performed by Kalian women during the tali-tying

Maternal Uncles Consent is ESSENTIAL for marriage
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In connection with the marriage ceremonies as carried out by some Kalians, I gather that the consent of the maternal uncle of a girl to her marriage is essential. For thebetrothal ceremony, the father and maternal uncle of the future bridegroom proceed to the girl’s house

Cross-Cousin Marriages
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the most proper alliance in the opinion of a Kalian is one between a man and the daughter of his father’s sister, and, if an individual have such a cousin, he must marry her, whatever disparity there may be between their respective ages

Origin of the Name Kallar & Some social practices
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In addition to the DNA matches and common haplogroups, they are known as southists/Southerners and share many customs & traditions. So it is likely that Knanaya had a Mukkulathor ancestry (better possibliity than Vellalla) and it is worth looking in to possible causes of segregration in addition to the caste status.

The Kallars’ inveterate addiction to dacoity and theft render the caste to this day a thorn in the flesh of the authorities. A very large proportion of the thefts committed in the district are attributable to them. Nor are they ashamed of the fact. One of them defended his class by urging that every other class stole, the official by taking bribes, the vakil (law pleader) by fostering animosities, and so pocketing fees, the merchant by watering the arrack (spirit) and sanding the sugar, and so on, and that the Kalians differed from these only in the directness of their method
It is recorded, in the Gazetteer of the Madurai district, that ” dacoity of travellers at night used to be the favourite pastime of the Kaliars, and their favourite haunts the various roads leading out of Madurai
” The crimes,” Mr. F. S. Mullaly writes,* ” that Kallars are addicted to are dacoity in houses or on high- ways, robbery, house-breaking and cattle-stealing….”

As a typical example of devil worship, the practice of the Valaiyans and Kalians of Orattanadu in the Tanjore district is described by Mr. F. R. Hemingway.* ” Valaiyan houses have generally an odiyan (Odina Wodier) tree in the backyard, wherein the devils are believed to live….

A Kallar account of Kallanism – A tale of Self-attestation & Selfpromotion
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http://mmk-thevarcommunity.blogspot.com/2008/09/mukkulathor.html
http://mahizhaithiru.wordpress.com/mukkulathor/
kallar.weebly. com/index.html
Kallar Means “Brave People”, Historians postulate the word Kallar Derived from Kalla means Black in Sanscrit and Tamil (கள்வனென் கிளவி கரியோனென்ப’ – திவாகரம்} Historians postulate Dravidians were called by Aryans as Kalla. Kalavar Means People who fight in Kalam(Battlefield), Kalavali Narpathu (களவழி நாற்பது), Tamil literature of the post-Sangam age Praises Kalavar and Kalam.
Kallar (Tamil: கள்ளர்) (meaning “Veerar”), is one of the three castes which constitute the Mukkalathor confederacy. “a fearless community show many signs of independence and non-submission to any form of subjugation.
The Chola Dynasty (Tamil:சோழர் குலம்) was a Tamil dynasty that ruled primarily in southern India until the 13th century the other two royal dynastys were Pandian and Chera. The meaning of chola Is unknown. Chera, chola and pandian are considered as Siblings. (Just like the Kallar, Maravar and Angamdiyans)
Chera, chola and pandian are commonly called as Thevar to mean they are desendents of Lord Indra. But specially cholas were called by many Surnames all these surnames (Mel kondar, Chozangar, Thevar etc.) are now used by Kallars only shows that Cholas are from the Royal Kallar community.
Even Pallavas are Kallars
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They were also called by surnames like sethurayar pallavarayar vandarayar, kadurayar,Vallavarayar,vanathirayar,kaliyarayar etc. all these surnames are used by Kallrs only. Proves that Pallavar are Decendents of Chola (Kallar).

Zealotry, Heroism, Brave Suicidal Warriors
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The code of suicide by warriors or maravars in ancient tamilnadu. Pulla Vazhkai Vallan Pakkam – the martial attitude of the warrior who goes forth into suicidal battle is mentioned by Tholkappiyam. … (Defending the City Salem or JeruSalem)

Cupric History -They also have copper plates
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Tamil copper-plate inscriptions : – The discovery of Indian copper plate inscriptions provided a relative abundance of new evidence for use in evolving a chronicle of India’s elusive history. During chola rule there were many small kings(Araiyar) were Ruling there Respective area under Chola.Some of the names are seen in Tamil copper-plate inscriptions was also mentioned in Ponniyin Selvan…

Downfall after 1345 (Others say their rise to power followed Vijayanagar Empire, after 1345)
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The downfall of the Mukkulathors occurred in 1345 with the fall of Vira Pandyan IV and the subsequent conquest of Madurai by the Delhi Sultanate. However, the southern territories of the Sultanate soon asserted their independence and the Mukkulathors recovered under the Vijayanagar

Knai thoma’s Turban and Attire
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see the similarities in the Turban and attire of Knai Thoma and Ponnambalam Arunachalam Mudaliar
wiki Ponnambalam_Arunachalam
Also check the Kerala Vellala Mahasabha website to see the similar Turban used by Ayya Guruswamikal.
Knai Thoma Turban is widely used among the Mudaliars(Vellalla and Non-Vellalla, i.e Agamudiyan), Dhangar/Kurumba communities.

Dear Varghese Bar Mani,

I do not believe that the Knanites came in ships flying the ‘Staf of David Flag’ or that they have married only within their community. I don’t even believe that Mar Thoma came to Malabar.

I am interested in only one thing and that is the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish heritage of the Malabar Nazerene, which is our true heritage. The K’s are atleast acknowledging it while we are not. What matters is that atleast a small group of Nazerenes are claiming our heritage, if in that process, they are throwing mud at us, then just ignore them. We outnumber them 10 to 1.
Bottom line, try to have the Ks ae your freind and not your enemy. We reach nowhere when we hit back at them. Don’t you see that they want you to react?

Knanaya Southists – or South Kanarese ? (i.e from Canara, not Cana). They are probably Kurubas or Dhanger.
Who are Dhangers – ? Dhangers are shepherds, divided in to 3 sects – Rajputs, Marathas (the first two are actually not Dhangars as they themselves donot accept this title, instead these are known warrior clans/ Kshatriya) and Kurubas. All together there are 108Clans, of which only 100 are known. 8 (i.e 7 +1 ) are missing/unknown. Politically influential Caneries castes like Hegde, Pal, Gauda etc .. are all Kuruba septs.
http://en-gb.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=129776223760629
wiki List_of_Dhangar_clans_in_India .
google ‘Dollu Kunitha’ for details (see that they are also majority fair skinned).
Bollywood actors Imran Khan (Imran Khan Pal) and Sagarika Ghatege are Dhangers

To see the the pomp of power the boast of heraldry, check dhangarpower.blogspot.com

Now Dhangar are known as Kuruba/Kurumba/Kuruma/Kuruman/Korava in the south. Kuruma/Kurumba/Kuruman in TN are classified as ST. Kuruba in Nilgiries are also haivng ST classification. Kurubas elsewhere (as the general Dhangar population all over the country) are fighting for ST classification, this includes Col.Bansala & his Gujjar Tribe. Dhanger communities in general have high concentration of H & L haplogroups, often ranging from 22-40% each. According to Dhanger’s every Indian Dynasty, except Islamic ones were Dhanger – Maurya Empire, Maratha, Vijayanagara, Pallava.. And interestingly Krishna(yadava), Muhammad (dont know why) and Jesus Christ (Good shephered) where Dhangers.

wiki Dhangar
The Dhangar (Sanskrit/Devanāgarī: धनगर, or Dhangad, Dhanpal.[1] ) caste is primarily located in the Indian state of Maharashtra. Dhangars of the Northern and Southern India are reasonably considered to belong to the same race.[2] One theory states that the Dhangar are the descendants of Kshatriya who took to herding sheep and cows in the forest in times of hardship.[3] Academics, however, describe the caste is described as falling under the Shudra varna.
>> Note that Dhangers everywhere are the same race, includes Kuruba/Kuruma etc. They also claims to be Kshatriya or Rajamakkal. Now go to the Kurumba tribe to check the social behaviour and customs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurumbar
Kurumbar or Kurumans or Kurubaru caste are shepherds of South India. They are indigenous people of India. Even though they are called in different names like ‘Kurumans’, ‘Kurumbar’ or ‘Kuruba’ and these names are synonyms and one and the same. Their surnames are Gounder, Gowder, Heggade, Naiker, and others. They are known as Dhangar in rest of India. Kurumbar are descendants of Pallavas.
>>So Kurmba/Kuruba/Kuruma are a cluster of southern tribes spread across TN (Nilgiris), Karnataka (Canara), AP & Kerala (See that MalaiArayan/Velan tribes are related to these tribes and Malai Arayans are mostly fair skinned, majority of them belongs to CSI Church). What is interesting here is the commonality of Dhanger, Mukkulathor & Vellallar, especially in their customs, ritual, caste claims and in their claims about Pallava dynasty.

http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=17340&rog3=IN
The Kurumba (also known as the Southern Kanares) Historically, the Kurumba have been best known for their acts of sorcery. The tribe is possibly divided into seven groups. Within the various clans, rules are strictly enforced. The society is patrilineal in nature, which means that the line of descent is traced through the males. The groups also practice endogamy (marriage within their own clans), and cross-cousin marriages are common.
>> see that they are known as Southern Kanares and have 7 Clans, Strictly endogamous with higher rate of cousin marriages and have strict civil code.

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/edgar-thurston/castes-and-tribes-of-southern-india-volume-4-ala/page-11-castes-and-tribes-of-southern-india-volume-4-ala.shtml
“The Kurubas are also known as Halu Mata, or milk caste, as they believe that they were created out of milk by Revana Siddeswara. In Hindustani they are called Dhangars, or rich people. Some, in spite of their poor dress and appearance, are well-to-do. At the Madras census, 1901, Kavadiga, Kumpani, and Rayarvamsam (Raja’s clan) were returned by some members of the community.”`
Wedding customs – “Early on the wedding morning, the bridal couple are anointed and washed marriage pandal (booth), which is made of pipal (Ficus religiosa] wood. The maternal uncle’s consent to a marriage is necessary, and, at the wedding, he leads the bride to the pandal.”

>> see the similarities in customs and rituals, the Pomp of Power and the boast of heraldery, the strict social/civil code.. !

I am not saying that Knanaya are Kuruba (or Canares) or any other Dhangar clan, but there is a possibility, a far greater possibility than being anything of Middle eastern, not to mention Jewish.

Based on the facts mentioned in the last 3 posts, I can say one thing for sure – Knanaya are Unmistakably Indian, Made in India (not Jewish made in India). Their traditions and customs are of Hindu origin, with strong resemblance with three other Communities – Vellallar, Mukkulathor and Kuruba Dhangers.
Of these they have a strongest match with the Mukkulathor, then comes Vellalar and then Dhanger (Kuruba mostly). All these three communities are pools of L haplogroup, strong civil code and peculiar social behaviour, rich traditions and unique customs & rituals which are infact not that unique given that they share among themselves and with Knananites, the descendants of Simon the Zealot. Like history, genetics is also a Jigsaw puzzle too hard to resolve. All these communities have a lineage of Princely parentage. Also worth mentioning the skin tone variations, truly RAINBOW communities.

Now there are ample proof for the Social segregation which lead to Endogamy
1. They were converts from Hindu communities which were idolatrous where as the pre-colonial Nasrani had only the Cherubims at the sanctuary.
2. Even though Nasranis were Christian in faith, they had a social behaviour dictated by the Hindu (Vedic) Civil Code which is Manusmriti which forbids certain practices which are still common among the Knanaya community. (Nasrani do not marry blood relatives, Do not use Kuravai which is considered low caste and was a taboo)
3. The original Hindu communities to which these Converts belonged to were below Nasrani in social order (Varna)

Jai ho.

Who wants to be a Jew ? Well, Virtually everyone, including me.
So why would someone like to be a jew ? the obvious reason is Cheap glory, better acceptance in addition to being considered closer to God & a label of Chosen people. But thats not all there are other reasons (for few people) as well, like first right to inherit the kingdom of heaven, the Courage & bravery with which they defend their nation, the thrilling Mosad stories (where ever 3 or more people gathers together, one among them is a Mossad), and sometimes to project racial supiriority at the expense of harworking Jewish people who excells in every spheare of life.

Science and Medicene – 23-25% of all Nobel prizes (except for peace prize) goes to Jews. Einstein was a Jew, so was many other Scientists & Doctors.
Finance & Business – Jews are the most successful businessmen. Jewish businessmen (descent), forms the largest cluster among the worlds billionires.
All of the Persian/Iranian billionire’s (4/5 in total) are Jewish (even the one who has an estimated $5billion worth of Islamic Art)
60% of the Russian Billionires are Jewish – Abramovich, Boris Berezovisky, Oleg Derispaska (had it not for the 2008 Economic Crisis, he would have been the Richest man on the Planet), Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Owner of Yukos and once the Richest Russian (And famously THE JEW WHO HAS STOLEN HALF OF THIS COUNTRY, i.e Russia -can you Imagin ? accoring to Putin), the list goes on.
Many American Billionires, Goldsmiths, Openheimers (Diamond Kings)and the Richest family ever in the History of the Planet, the Rothschilds (Richer than the Romanovs) who had 28 palaces and controlled most of the Banking in the world (conspiracy theories says Bank of England and Once the BNY all were owned by them ?). There are many other banks controlled or owned by them, including the Kaputhing Islandic bank whose assets were attached by Gordon Brown by invoking Terrorist prevention act.
Film/Art – Steven Spilberg and James Cameron (2 is too much)
News/Advertising – Rupert Mardoch, and many other American Media owners/executives (http://www.rense.com/general60/stun.htm), Satchi & Satchi brothers – Advertising barrons.
Politics – David Cameron is Paternally of Jewish descent (Cohen), Ed Milliband (Labour shadow PM, UK), Dominique Strauss-Kahn (Next French President) – So both England and France are ruled by Jewish People.

So this is a Jewish dominated world and everyone else wants a piece of this fortune & everyone wants be in the winning team (Quoting George Mathew) -just the natural human instinct

Who wants to be a Jew – Participants
So who is in the Race (actively)
the Prime contenders in the World Heavy Weight Jewish Boasting Championship are 1. Pathans (Pashtuns), 2. Knanaya, 3. Vellalla, 4. Romani (Gypsi), 5. Igbo (Ebo of Nigeria), 6. Tamils in general (They say we are not Dravidians but Davidians. Vel Murugans alibi is Magen David, Jerusalem is Cheru ‘Salem’, We share words like ‘Appa & Amma’, Cousin Marriages are common among us also etc..), 7. and of lately Nasranis (including me) are also practicing to pass the Qualifying round.

Pashtuns (or Pathans) and Igbo are the worst boasters.
Igbos usually boasts like this – I am an Ebo man… I have properties in London, Lagos, Abuja, Cheshire, Penniford and my family lives in Birmingham. shouts over the phone “you put that 3 million Naira today.. Do you understand.., 5 million”..
In Nigeria we have everything – Oya (oil), Coppa (Copper), Zinc.. except Uranium. (but no commonsense anyway) You wont see me driving in Lagos, I will have a Schauffer.. They are very proud of their Israelite origins.

But Pathans are far worse. If you ever see a pathan, just run .. dont ever look back or you risk losing your ‘forefathers’
My experience – I met a pathan (pakistani) named A.U. Khan. “Hi brother..are you from India ? …Oh where ? ….have heard about it. In Qatar there are too many malbaris… I know I know.. I am from Peshawar (We have heard about it from Condoleeza Rice as -”The road to Guantanamo bay starts at Peshawar”), I am a pathan, you heard about pathans… Yeh! who hasnt heard about Irfan pathan? ..Shah rukh Khan is a Pathn.. Oh really? Yeh. Salman, Amir, Dharamji, Sunny deol.. Muhammand Rafi was a pathan. You like him ? .. Who doenst ? … You know Dilip Kumar ? he is also a pathan, he was also from Peshawar” By this I started being nervous, looks like everyone is a pathan today. I knew next he is going to insult my forefathers, by saying ‘You are also a pathan’. I had to escape from there.
These pathans are raising 3 different claims simultaneously – 1. Alexander’s Greek soldiers, 2. Lost tribes – they have all the 12 tribes (13 actually) – rabbani, levani, shinwari, yuseffasi, afridi…, 3. They claim lineage of some Muslim Kaliph. They are not sure about which one. I have my condolences to these ‘Master Races’. Shameful.

So the Knas are not alone here. No body is going to get the Heavy weight Jewish boasting title that easily. In fact others in the race are even stronger contenders (due to their larger population). The Vellallars and the Gypsy (Romani code is strictly enforced) are not inferior to Knas in their claim to noble origin or blood purity. The similarities dont end there. There is more to it, they all have predominately Indian markers (L & H haplogroups). They all have similar wedding customs, similar In fact the Knas could be the lost Gypsy tribe (Romanis have H, R1a1 etc in abundance but no second Indian marker which is L, which is the only obstacle in claiming Indian origins). The Kna tribes are 7 in total – last being thegumuth (which is thegumbavar), all others are in Europe now. The 6 Romani tribes . I have already said about this, but just repeating for your knowledge – Even Obama, the worlds most powerful man is also a Kna. His Maternal family is a Stanley – A Welsh Romanichal clan. Since these Jews are matrilineal, Obama is also a Romanichal Jew. Is that all, no the pomp of power, the boast of heraldry and of beauty, these are all common among these brainless idiots who have never seen a mirror. I believe the Govt of India (better the UN) should ban boasting and make it an offence punishable under the law and should make sure that Every one gets a mirror, Make it a fundamental right along with Kapada, Makkan and Roti – i.e right to have a mirror. That is essential for these idiots. Vellala boasts of their beauty, light skin (I doubt both – I have never heard of a beautiful vellalla Model or actress, but only Iyer, Nasrani & Nair, Konkani ladies are in Tamil filmdom. So where are these hidden beauties ? Never mind, beauty is in the eye of the beholder), height, long nose… ha ha ha.. I cant stop laughing. They are not Dravidians, but Davidians, Arumukham is David (hexagram or Magen David).

You can boast about your present – I dont care as long as it is truthful or near truthful, but do not when it is about the past unless you are sure about it, or have atleast some evidence. I have something for these brainless shameless prime-mates (anyone who boasts of superior origin with no substance.). Read the poem by Thomas Grey. http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Elegy.htm
“The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power, And all that beauty, all that wealth e’er gave, Awaits alike th’ inevitable hour the paths of glory leads but to GRAVE”

May — save the brainless and shameless.

Even though few people (especially George Mathew) have criticised my posts on this article, I am glad to let you all know that there have been a cleanup of the wiki page for knanaya, which is a good thing. Subsequently the Druze & L haplogroup stuff and most importantly the tale of ‘Zealotry & bravery in defending Jerusalem from the Roman siege (Niro) before retreating to the hills where ‘ has been removed. So it is something positive as it leads to something refined and more distant from the untruth.

Now, a further clean up is required (just a request only) on few more things which doesnt make any common sense (Dont be mistaken, its Nothing related to Knanaya origins etc.. ).

1. About pre-colonial occupations – “and were wealthy plantation owners, merchants and bankers until an assault by Muslims.”
>Please not that the concept of Plantation was introduced by the European colonial powers, for boosting trade and that too in the later centuries. And since the Pepper etc were not grown in the costal areas, it is unlikely that they had any farming at all. So there were no plantation owners

2. t is a long-standing tradition among Knanaya that they sailed to India under a flag of the Magen David

>>This is nothing but rubbish. Throw it away. wiki Magen David reads “The Jewish Encyclopedia cites a 12th-century Karaite document as the earliest Jewish literary source to mention the symbol.[2] Its use as a symbol of the Jewish community dates to the 17th century.”

So Knanaya should have arrived somewhere in the 17th-18th century ?. Also no Jewish Christian community around the world use Star of David as its alibi, but the Cross.

3. Even today, Knanaya are still victims of increasing missionary efforts from both Christian and Islamic missionaries desiring that they should abandon their Jewish identity, customs, and traditions.
>> This is totally untrue. Since the Knanaya are under Knanaya churches this is totally baseless.

4. This is why Knanaya continue to celebrate Passover very privately without inviting any Christian friend to share the Holy Meal
>> These and the paragraphs about Cusine are misused since these are part of the Nasrani traditions. Please dont hijack these things.

5. Furthermore, circumcision was prohibited as was reading and writing in Hebrew and Aramaic.
>> This again is unfounded and baseless. The Synod decrees are muted about circumcision and Hebrew. Aramaic (syriac) was never banned. (only the liturgy was opposed)

and finally,
6. total population – 50,000–65,000 (estimate)
>> Mass murder in cold blood ? You have annihilated 200000-250000 (quarter of a million) of your own people. Was there some kind of holocaust ? where are the rest ? This is definitely a crime against humanity.

Mani:

Don’t be so full of yourself. I wasn’t even speaking about you. In general, if you look at the recent literature on this topic you’ll see a lot of back and forth: very immature dialog with each community trying to disparage the other due to some ancient rivalry. So I don’t think truth can be easily found there. (The washer woman story comes from this literature; I’m quite aware of that.)

And other papers, like the one you identified, are ridiculous, as they look at general Christian/Jacobite customs (kiss of peace, use of Syriac, velvet cap on priests, etc.) and draw conclusions on the “Knanaya” on that basis. Katz, Boaz, etc., are guilty of such idiotic extrapolations.

But it remains that some have identified some interesting parallels between the Southist marriage songs and that of Yemeni Jews. Where could that have come from?

You’ve also presented some interesting things lately; perhaps some one else will confirm or deny those.

But you’ve also presented some faulty things above as well, that are tenuous. For example you refer to Thomas of Cana’s turban, not realizing that no picture of Thomas of Cana even exists. The pics that you see are only one of many of the recent “reinvention” of historical figures that all Nasranis and Southists have engaged in (e.g., Kadamattom Kathanar has two pictures, one as a Jacobite, one as a general Christian priest; Mar Abo, Mar Sabor, Mar Aproth, Meherven Sabr-Isho, etc.). All have no basis.

The Southists say ridiculous things. The Jacobites also seem to be quick to allow this because it justifies their false history (India under Antioch from the beginning; utter nonsense).

But the problem as I see it is the counterreaction that often goes in the extreme other direction.

If it is true that the Southists have some Jewish traditions (e.g., their wedding songs), then I think it is likely my theory is far more accurate. If there are no Jewish traditions, other than general Nasrani ones (e.g., Pesaha), then perhaps your facts tell a better story.

FOr sure, none of the stories (e.g., washerwomen) are reported in the older literature (e.g., Jornada, 19th century reports, etc.), so they must be modern fabrications, part of the Northist counter response.

Nasranis….basically a bunch of Hindus who accepted a form of prmitive Christianity and then turned their back on other Hindus, just to stay in “favor with Brahmins, and supported the Avarna system.

See what happened as a result? you never spoke out against the oppression of other Hindus, Buddhists who gave your ancestors shelter, before 8th century arrival of Brahmins into your state, you joined with the invading aryans

____________________

The Caste Structure of Kerala

As the final product of Aryanisation, Kerala society crystallized into two major caste-based categories, the caste Hindus or ‘Savarnas� and the non-caste Hindus or ‘Avarnas�. The caste and sub-castes were arranged in a hierarchical order from the highest and the most sacred to the lowest and the least worthy.

The Savarna hierarchy consisted of the Nambudiris or Kerala Brahmins, the Kshatriyas or the rulers and Sudras or Nairs in a descending order. The Avarna hierarchy had Ezhava (Thiyya or Chovan) at the top followed by Pulaya, Paraya, etc. with the Nayadi occupying the last rung. The Avarnas were definitely below the rank of Sudras. The bifurcation of Savarna and Avarna was so deeply felt that professional castes like tailor, barber, washerman, etc. existed separately for Savarnas and Avarnas. That is, a Savarna tailor or barber would not work for an Avarna as an Avarna was considered to be inferior to the Savarna professional.

Another point of interest is that Kerala has no Vaisya caste. There could be two reasons for this. First, when the immigrant Aryans (Brahmins) reached Kerala, agriculture and trade were well developed and well maintained by the local people, many of whom rejected the varna system. Any interference in the economy would have been suicidal to the vested interests of the Brahmins. So they wisely manipulated to become the masters of everything with the least disturbance to the social set up. Secondly, they must have felt the need for a serving class under them rather than a free trading class. So the willing natives were elevated to the Sudra status, and the unwilling natives were branded untouchables.

The Nambudiris represented the highest rank, privileged to enter the sanctum sanctorum of the temples, touch idols and perform oblations. Even the Kshatriya was not allowed this privilege. The Nambudiris followed the rule of primogeniture, that is, the eldest son of the family inherited the property. And to keep the property intact, only the eldest son was allowed to marry, that too from within the caste. For the convenience of the younger sons, a peculiar system called ‘Sambandham’ � a morganatic marriage � with Nair or Kshatriya women was devised. By this system the woman was not given the social status of a wife, nor could the children inherit the paternal property. The children were forbidden to touch their father, lest they pollute him. The matriarchal system of the Nair families was quite convenient to the Brahmins as the maternal uncle became the guardian of the children, thus cleverly eliminating the responsibility of the father to provide for the wife and children. Prof. S. N. Sadasivan refers to this arrangement as a ‘sexual luxury without the social obligation.’ The Nairs were quite convinced that it was the duty of the Nair men to serve, and the duty of the Nair women to please the Brahmin. Even Kshatriya families believed that the seed of a Nambudiri could produce better and more efficient Kings. It took hundreds of years and generations for the community to realize and react against this sexual exploitation.

But the Nambudiris did not escape from ignominies and miseries of this system. Look at the fate of the Nambudiri women (Antarjanam). Many a lady had to suffer compulsory maidenhood all her life because only one man from a family could marry. Or she had the choice to become one of the several wives of a Nambudiri who could be old enough to be her father or grandfather. Young widows among Nambudiri women were quite common.

As a result of the inbreeding of Nambudiri-Kshatriya- Nair castes, there emerged numerous hybrid castes like Menon, Warrier, Marar, Pisharady, etc. As they increased and multiplied, they were made subordinate functionaries of the temple establishments.

The plight of the Avarnas or non-caste Hindus was the most pitiable. Not only economic deprivation but inhuman humiliations were heaped upon them. By the end of the seventeenth century, caste assumed a ferocious and barbarous form in Kerala and stiflingly oppressive to those in the lower rungs of the caste ladder. .

There were nearly three hundred compulsory taxes imposed on the Avarnas exclusively, some of which will look ridiculous and nonsensical to the modern mind. Here are some examples:

Tharivari – tax on handlooms
Valayara – tax on fishing boats and nets
Chakkuvari – tax on oil press
Thalavari – tax to be paid by an Avarna for the hair on his head.
Mulakaram ( breast tax) – tax on women to be paid depending on the size of their breasts.
Chetthukaram – tax to be paid by the worker for the number of palms he climbed in a day for extracting toddy.

These taxes appear laughable, but imagine the implied humiliation and tragic fate of the people who had to bear them. Realizing the illegitimacy, impropriety and inhuman nature of these taxes, Rani Gauri Laxmibai of Tranvancore issued a proclamation in 1851 abolishing them,

However, the social humiliations continued to be in force, because there was a firm belief that the lower castes defiled the higher in a spiritual or ritualistic sense. Hence, the principle of untouchability and unapproachability was maintained very strictly. Even Savarnas were victims of this. Since the Nambudiris were alleged to be the highest and most sacred, even the Kshatriyas were regarded as polluting the Nambudiris by touch and approach. The Kshatriya was therefore compelled to keep a distance of two feet away from the Nambudiris and the sanctum sanctorum of the temple. Similarly, the distance to be observed by the others were:

Nair – 16 ft.

Ezhava – 32 ft.

Pulaya and Paraya – 64 ft.
Nayadi – not to come within the sight of a Brahmin. The sight of a Nayadi at a distance would force the Brahmin to undergo ritual purification

In addition to these, these social groups had to keep certain specified distance from each other.

The use of public highways was forbidden to the Avarnas, and anyone daring to pass within polluting distance of a Savarna would be cut down at once. To recognize such castes, they were required to remain naked above the waist. This applied to women too. The proper salutation of an Avarna female to persons of rank was to uncover her bosom.

The use of footwear, umbrellas, fine clothes and jewelry were forbidden to the Avarnas. The holding of umbrellas in public places was prohibited to all castes except Brahmins and kings, even when rain was pouring down. The others were expected to protect themselves with plantain leaves.

There were restrictions about the type of house an Avarna could build for himself. The area, the height of the house, the number of windows and ventilators, were also restricted.

While talking to the caste superiors, the Avarnas were forced to use a special idiom:

- when referring to oneself, he should not say �I�, but should say, ‘your slave�

- they were to commence speaking, ‘your slave has permission to observe….�

- while speaking, he must place his hand over his mouth, lest his breath go forth and pollute the person he was addressing,

- while referring to parts of his own body, he must use the adjective ‘old�, for example, old eye, old ear, etc.

- his children must be referred to as ‘calves� or ‘monkeys’

- his food should be referred to as ‘dirty gruel�

- his house should be referred to as ‘dirty hut�

- he must refer to any Nair only as ‘yajaman� (master)

These are but a few examples.

It was believed to be the duty of the ruler to be the guardian and guarantor of the existing social structure and punish heavily anyone daring to violate any of the customs. The rulers, the custodians of law, and the Savarnas who considered themselves the custodians of tradition, combined together to see that even the silliest caste rule was maintained intact. Although the majority of Hindus were laboring under severe disabilities, caste Hindus never realized the plight o1 their co-religionists, because they sincerely believed in the theory of Karma and Re-birth.

By the beginning of the nineteenth century, the Savarnas had monopolized all social, economic and political opportunities of the state. They had taken care to see that the Avarnas did not get any opportunity worth the name for individual or communal development.

John,

Just like anyone else I am the biggest fan of myself (I have to) but I will try to be more pious. Apologies if you didnt meant me when you said that, but It was me who had the last ‘washer woman’ post. So I could see a coordinated attack coming from Canada, whom I perceived southist sympathisers who wont care about the merits and I saw my self being taken to Hague to stand on trial. Anyway I believe I had been moderate in any sort of criticism (I mean always backed up by some sort of evidence or lack of evidence).

Why I criticise the Knanaya ? Many things (most) that they proudly proclaim are known untruths. And ‘Confessing to an untruth is to kill one’s soul’. These baseless stories (like the Magen David flag) are injected to their children who then continues to live in these fantasies. I dont believe it is good for anyone. We could leave them on their own hadnt they been part of the community. But that isnt the case.

I have already stated that Dr. Boaz had been too focused and had little observation elsewhere.
Sadly this is the case with the wedding songs as well. Look at it as a ‘wedding song’. So what is the theme here ? what is happening at that moment, what is expected of the future ? Who are present there ? Who is to bless it ? Has any one thought about it ?. It is a wedding song, the theme, the guests, the celebrations.. these are universal. The only changes that may be required is ‘whose blessings are sought ?’ (it can be a different name – allah, alaha, YHWH, God, Daivam, Ram, Bhagwan..) So there is nothing in a wedding song depicting the same theme.

If that is not the case then why not look at the Kongu Vellalla Wedding Songs ?
Just type kongu Vellala wedding on google and the first thing you see would be ‘Kongu Vellala wedding Songs’ being brought up by google instant . Same with Knanaya.
So both communities have a good set of wedding songs, that they are so obsessed with, that they believe heralds their proud past. Is there any more proof required?
What about the ‘Vazhvenna song after Knanaya wedding and the Mangala Vazhthu song after Kongu Vellalla song ?’

About the fact that I have presented in my postings, I am sure people with common sense would buy it, this includes those in the Southist community. But even if a southist buys it he wont be able to use it. Damage has already been done. These Jewish origin stories had been broadcasted with such a fervor that it is impossible to backtrack. You cannot bury it, but have to live with it. The Knanaya Church is busy on a Film with the AD345 Migration theme.

My posting on Dhanger/ Kuruba hasnt come up yet. See that as well. I am sure you will find it acceptable

Dear George,

I tender an unconditional apology to you and John Mathew for I may have offended in defence (fending off fictitious enemies ). I am also curious about our Hebrew origins, which are anyway part true, but to what extant ? So far only the Pakalomattom have been tested +ve. Who else ?
Why I am interested ? It would be better for the community as a whole, to keep us ‘together’ in faith, to bring that gifted passion in observing the laws. Not to boast. (Quote St.Paul – what profit is there if you are a Jew and does things that are forbidden ?).

I am greatful to the Southist community that they have one of the highest community spirits and are true loyal to their traditions (I dont have share any jewish origin thoughts on that community though as I am convinced that they are of Pallava origin – Dhangar/Mukkulathor/Vellala ? I dont know). But I believe the community spirit is sometimes extreme (exceeds that of Muslims) – Many Knas prefer to shop from Kna run businesses only, which I think is wrong. (you knows what happens when every one thinks alike ?)

But when you bring up new theories and attach other communities and historic persons, with no backup of evidences you are at the wrong end. I am not on a crusade nor am a Knanaya basher. Just want people to keep those superior origins to themselves, do not export it to our streets, not especially to the schools and please dont try not to teach your children some thing that you know is false. (As I have already mentioned, the two malayalis who have reached the highest constitutional posts are 1. K.R Narayanan, 2. KG Balakrishnan (it is on merit, but I dont know how corrupt/truthful he was). So drop these master race theories. I have put a post on the Wiki page of Knanaya. Do you think any of my requests are with out merit ? (I am sure many knanaya people, especially those who live abroad will get ridiculed by others for that MAGEN DAVID FLAG – I dont have any profit from that)

Thanks,
varghese

Dear Mani,
So why would someone like to be a jew ? the obvious reason is Cheap glory, better acceptance in addition to being considered closer to God & a label of Chosen people.
I am glad that you are in the UK, for then you can understand better. Your above comment is not true.

Jews have been the most hated and detested people on the face of the earth. Even in ‘advanced’ Canada, in the city of Montreal the Jews are detested as much or more than the Muslims. British history is notorious for anti semitism. In 1947, during the birth of Israel, Britain wanted the Jews to be wiped out. Check it out and call me a liar if I am wrong. UK supported the ARabs who until a few months ago were working with the Germans to destroy Britian. They did this for their hatred of the Jews and the oil that that Arabs had. I need not say about Germany and Martin Luther, who were very highly anti-semitic. Even the US was anti -semitic, since it did not permit Jews to enter universities until a few decades ago. Canada sent back atlest 2 Jewish refugee ships back to Europe during WW2 and they promptly got killed by the Nazis. Christian history is replete with incidents and traditions of anti-semitism. Until the early 20th Century the Christians very near Vatican annually shamed a Jew by making him ride on a donkey on Christian festival days. My CoE forefathers in Urmiah traditionally beat up Jews on every ‘Good Friday’ for the alleged killing of Isho.
ON a daily basis, I come across people who are born Jewish, they shy away from anything Jewish. Very often, there is no outward appearance of Jewishness. It is kept hidden in fear. They want to live and not die or be persecuted. Nobody I know wants to be a Jew. There are many Nazerenes who know of their Jewish heritage, but do nothing about it. To them, history has told that the Jew is a looser. Who cares about Nobel Awards and money, when you run the risk of being attacked and killed from all of your neighbours.
You must ask God why the Jews that are alive today so very successful. HOnestly, I do not understand why? If it is God’s Blessings upon them, then how much more will God Bless Jews who accept Isho as the Messiah?

I do not want to tarnish you, but only want to tell you that nobody wants to be Jewish. It is not cool or rewarding. For over 10 years, I am deep into our Jewish heritage and this is my finding. Take it or leave it. To be Jewish, is full of stress and uncertainity. In Malabar, the Black Jews did not impress our Malabar Nazerene fathers to imitate. The Nazerene rather followed the West and the Jacobites. This is history.

Just yesterday, a well travelled and educated Nazerene lady told me ‘.. you are not of Jewish heritage, you are just pretending to be of one, Nazerenes are not of Jewish heritage..’. She is a good freind of ours. What she said expressed the deep rooted anti-semitism of Nazerenes who are in the Western and Jacobite camps. Your findings that people are interested in being JEwish, represents only less than 1% of the population. There will be more number of people who would want to be born a dog, than a Jew. A survey in ‘Marthoma Orkut Forum’ some years ago, clearly showed that the majority of Marthomites want nothing to do with Judaism or the JEws.

May I wrap up?
The Jews down through the centuries have believed that they were invicible for ‘They are God’s Chosen people’. Even after the Temple was destroyed, the still had hope. Their famous greetings on Passover ‘.. See you next year in Jerusalem..’ is proof of it, they said this while they were in death camps.
But that is not the situation today. After the genocide, the JEws have realized that they are a marked race and that they have to defend themselvs. They no more depend on God to save them (a general observation). Notice the very high percentage of Israelite leaders today are ‘secular Jews’? These very secular Jews are also the most hawkish. They lost 100% faith in humanity (repeat 100% faith in humanity) or in Thomas Gray. The most docile and timid are the ‘Ultra Orthodox Jews’, who outwardly appear to be hawkish, but inwardly are jelly. The secular Jews (like Gold Meir, Sharon, Netanayahu etc.) are outwardly ‘soft and progressive’ but inwardly made of steel forged in Auswitch. Many secular Jews freely eat pork, dishonour the Shabbath etc.. But beware, they are the hard core Jews inside. They do not need ‘external trappings’ like the Star of David or Tzitzits etc.. to be Jewish. They are all fully Jewish inside. The Ultra Orthodox Jews put on all the external trappings but will not last long in a showdown. It took me a long time to understand this.

If you want to understand the Jews, the above (generally, for there are always exceptions) is very important.

Mani:

I have no Southist sympathies. I find their distortion of history to be atrocious. However, their stories are so idiotic, so far fetched, so unbelievable that they are almost comic.

To be clear, I reject the claim that Thomas Cana was a southist ancestor. I don’t know the truth of the claim that the Southist’s possess Jewish wedding songs. If true, then my theory (black/brown jew schismatics) is the strongest theory I’ve seen. If false, then I don’t know what the truth is, since there is no other Jewish link for that community (no circumcision) — but I don’t think there is any evidence to support the claim that Southists were from a Christian community.

If you read my oldest posts, you’ll see the degree to which I’ve rejected the ridiculous Southist myths, so I’m no defender of their fiction. However I’m also disappointed that their opponents resort to myth making. I’m not saying you are, just the general response seems to be more of the same.

informative video to watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYin8Dmk8pQ&feature=related

Thanks a lot John Mathew…

That was detailed and well explained. Am having one more query,

a. You did mention here previsouly in some old posts that, “the West Syrians assimilated and expanded ‘theological learnings’ borrowed from the Greeks”. (Since after the Chalcedon Synod, the church split into Greek and Sryiac groups). Do you be knowing how much and what was borrowed from Greeks ?. As I have learned, the Greek church later looked to constantinople and follows more of the Eastern traditions, and Syrian church, remains the same carrying forward the syrian tradions.

Dear all,

Check the Syrian Christian History by P.E Easo at http://alackal.com/SyrianChristians.html

He is proposing some very good theories, though he has mad some efforts to be loyal to Antioch (Whiter than White). Brings in a lot of information about Cheppads/Chettys/Manigramam/Knai thoma and Southist origins.

T A:

The nature of the early Church, composed of (from East to West) Syriac/Aramaic and Greco-Roman parts has been studied and dealt with quite a bit by many authors, you can find many of their works digitized and online. There are some controversial points as well, because no one wants to admit that they were “influenced” by others, hence disturbing their “purity”.

In short, notions of purity are totally bogus. East and West are false divisions, with plenty of intercourse (literal, and otherwise) happening to cause ideas to flow in both directions.

The history of the Near East is one of conquest and reconquest. The earliest empires included both Indo-European ones and Semitic ones. Then we have the Aramean/Assyrian empires which caused the Aramaic language to be the lingua franca of the Near East. Then there was the Greek conquest, which resulted in the Hellenization of the Near East.

So in the early centuries BC and AD, we have Greek and Aramaic being used, with Greek tending to be the language of the “elite” urban dwellers, and Aramaic being the language of the villagers and peasantry (since many of the peoples of the Near East — the Mesopotamians — were of Aramean/Assyrian extraction, or at least were heavily influenced by that culture).

In particular, Antioch and Alexandria were Greek cities. Jerusalem was hybrid, Greek and Aramaic. The earliest bishops of Antioch and Alexandria were all Greeks, or Hellenized Asians/Africans.

The earliest examples of the liturgy of St James are in the Greek language and not Syriac. At the same time, there was a parallel development in the Orient (i.e., the Persian empire, where Aramaic was naturally more influential than Greek) of Aramaic/Syriac schools of Christianity, and liturgies. These were the nucleus of the East Syriac Church.

In the Hellenized Christian world (i.e., Antioch, Alexandra, etc.) when the bogus Christological controversies occurred, there was an ethnic component to the schisms, whereby — in general — the Greek urban dwellers and the Aramean village dwellers took independent sides.

When this occurred, the Syriac-speaking peoples took the originally-Greek rites, and translated them into the Syriac language. They also added in the vast amount of liturgical poetry that the Syriac schools of the Persian empire produced (Ephrem, etc.).

You can easily see this in the West Syriac rites: many of the technical terms in the liturgy are Greek or Syriacized Greek, the structure is identical to the originally-Greek rites (I say originally Greek, because the earliest examples of the liturgy are in Greek), etc. But they are saturated with native poetry, hymns, etc. In fact, the Syriac Church is known for their vast contributions to Christian hymns — an example of flow from East to West. The Greek Church of Byzantine readily borrowed from the Syriac schools.

Note: The West Syriac liturgy is not a mere copy of the Greek prototype. Not at all. It has novel Syriac contributions in the hymnody, and a major novel creation: the Promion/Sedro “Hussoyo” prayers. There is an excellent paper by a Maronite scholar linking these prayers to the Jewish liturgy. This is roughly analogous to the Gehanta prayers of the East Syriac rite which is analogous to the Jewish prayers over meals.

There is are a lot of false statements by all sorts of vested interests on this topic. The RC scholar Fortescue is a good read, but he is a bit of a bigot and makes casual statements to the effect that the Maronite and Jacobite rites are just Syriac translations of the Greek rites of Antioch. Jacobite authors claim that the Maronites are just a “Catholic” version of the Jacobite originals. Not at all—as above, the truth is that the latter two rites are two independent syntheses blending the liturgical products of the early Greek Church (which may or may not have had an Aramaic predecessor; if so, it doesn’t exist in any form today), with the liturgical products of the nascent (East) Syriac Church.

Now, is the East Syriac Church “pure”? Not at all. They incorporate Greek as well. Their technical terminology includes Greek, they honor the early Greek fathers, etc. After the council of Maruta, they decided to reduce the diversity of Oriental Syraic rites in favor of the model of the Eddesan Church, which had Greek influence.

Is the Greek Church pure? Of course not. That was the product of an Indo-European culture adapting to a Semitic one. And as I said the hymnody was strongly influenced by the Syriacs.

After the split of the 5th century, the Syriac Church of “Antioch” (no longer centered in Antioch of course — it withdrew into Mesopotamia proper) came of its own, taking their translations of the Greek liturgy and adding copious hymns, prayers, etc., which were the products of the Syriac culture. The period from the 5th – 10th century was a golden age for them. So what we have today in the West Syriac Church is saturated with Syriac culture. But the liturgy has a Greek origin.

There are excellent books online that discusses Syriac literature; one by an English author provides a historical survey of Syriac literature (www.archive.org), another by Patr. Aprem Barsoum provides a survey of Jacobite literature. And there are great resources on the development of the liturgy that you can consult (google books) that will give you a more complete, thorough picture than the brief sketch I’ve provided here.

If you study Syriac you’ll be shocked to find how much Christian technical terminology comes from Greek. The West Syriac script has strong Greek influence in terms of the vowels, which directly correspond to (and look exactly like) Greco-Roman vowels. The East Syriac lacks this influence.

T A:

It should also be noted that the “Greek Church of Antioch” became obliterated with increasing Byzantine influence, so that nowadays nothing remains of the Greek Church of Antioch, other than a local copy of the Byzantine Church. Same with the Greek Church of Jerusalem: Greek leaders ruling over Palestinans, in some cases selling off Palestinian Christian assets, etc.

But during the heyday of the Greek Church of Antioch, it used its own native rite (Liturgy of St James, in Greek and Syriac), with Greek and Syriac literature as well: much of the Syriac literature was copied from the Greek originals (since the Chalcedonian Syriacs and Greeks were one communion). After the schism of the Miaphysite Syriac community, the Chalcedonian Syriacs and Greeks continued, and were centered in Antioch. They continued to develop as a Church.

But unfortunately, the strength of Constantinople (with whom they Greek Church of Antioch were in communion with) was too much, and with time they just copied the Constaninople rites, and let their original heritage decay.

There are scholars of that Church who are trying to reconstruct the original Greek and Syriac rites. There was a site “Antioch” .org or .net or something, where a Monk Elias of that Church put up some of his work reconstructing and rediscovering Chalcedonian Syriac literature.

So it wasn’t that all Syriacs became Monophysites/Miaphysites, and all Greeks were Chalcedonians. There was a mix, but the general trend was as I indicated earlier.

As usual, the truth is always a mix … no purity in anything whatsoever!

RE: Who wants to be a Jew

Dear George Mathew,

I have taken your advice – ‘take it or leave it’ and decided to leave. ( I will explain later)
What you are saying (ie. the prejudice and hate against the Jews in the west) could be true, but only among the uneducated hate mongers in the low society who know they are losers. Their problem is jealousy and are mostly jobless, homeless and hopeless. And here in Britain most of the anti-Semitism are are perpetrated by the some fanatic Muslims (Some Anjam Choudary etc..). Apart from the Middle East and Islamic countries the Jews are very well accepted and in countries like UK and US and Russia they are actually a special privilaged people (because they are hardworking) who controls the business and govt. See David Cameroon, Milliband Brothers – there are no institutional descrimination of course .
What you says about Canada may be true but I do feel that you are distorting facts a little bit though. (I should be calling you a liar). It is a known fact that Britain was responsible for carving a Jewish state out of the ‘Palestine’. What triggered this was the rejection of Australia to allow a special state for Jews in its vast territory saying it cant allow a special settlement for one ethnic group (May be it was due to their WHITE ONLY policy). But Britain and many European nations had been carrying guilt on the plight of Jews, as they couldnt do any thing to prevent the Holocaust which was the real reason behind this move. Some times back I had watched a documentary on this where it says about the first arab war when the Jews had to buy war planes from a Czech manufacturer which was a very disgraceful to them as they were treated badly in that country when its people sided with the Nazis.

Also Jews in Britain were far less prosecuted (after the Schism with the Catholic church) when compared with the rest of Europe. Same is the case with the Roma/Romani (Gypsy) people. Historically Catholic church was anti-Jewish and the then Pope didnt do anything to prevent the Holocaust. Reason behind this is the catholic teaching that ‘Jews were responsible for the Crucification of our Lord’. Also we used to mistreat Jews (read persecute) and then justify this by reading the scriptures ( “They replied ‘Let his blood be on us and on our children’”. This is what is called Heresy.

“In Malabar, the Black Jews did not impress our Malabar Nazerene fathers to imitate” – There wawere some obvious reason for that which we all know. 1. We dont need to immitate someone (and generally we dont like to, unless there is something ‘foren’ in it) and the Jewish were local people 2. Jews denied Messiah and 3. They were blasphemous.

Proof from “Castes and Tribes of South India” – 1907.
“The Portuguese Histories mention that at a certain time certain blasphemous papers against our Saviour, with some severe reflections against the Jesuit Gonsalvus Pereira (who afterwards suffer’d Martyrdom at Monopatapa)”. Also we have already read from Dr. Boaz that the Cochin jews had the NT with them.

But all these were from the past centuries and today they are the most admired people and the most envied (if you cant beat them Join them. So some idiots try to beat them while some clever people tries to join them). Most funny thing is ‘Israel can live with out the Arab Oil and Gas’ but Arabs cant live without using technology developed by the Jewish people.

Below is the link to an article on Hindu about Black / Cochini Jews (story of Ponnumon)
http://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/metroplus/article828328.ece

Anyway I dont want to be a Jew anymore. Sadly I cant be one as I have been disqualified at the qualifying round by ftdna. Aham Brahmasmi (r1a1, may be r1a1a/1). Looks like I am also from the north, apparently from Pakistan.

FTDNA says
* Percentages above 2% are considered significant indicators of your family’s origins.
* Percentages above 4% may be interpreted as highly significant indicators of your family’s origins.”

for One Step Mutations (11/12 only), I have

Iceland 4 - 4 147 2.7%
India 32 - 32 1,314 2.4%
Norway 32 - 32 1,306 2.4%
Pakistan 6 - 6 150 4.0%

As always ‘body never lies’. So May be my ancestors were likely to be Pathans ( that is weird ). So I have to subscribe to the Namboothiri theories. So from now onwards I will also be ‘LOOKING NORTH’. (I have no clear match from Pakistan though)

But dont just write me off. I could still find a place in the Jewish boasting championship. I found some interesting information on the origin of brahmins. If this is true then all the CMH etc will be invalid and it appears that J2 and J1 may not be Abraham at all. According to some theorists Abram -> Abraham -> ‘Brahm’min and Ahron->Aron->Aryan. He is proposing that the Children of Keturah became the Brahmins. But another theorists says “Since they were from the tribe of Aron they were allowed to be the priestly class in the Vedic religion”. Sounds reasonable.

So all r1a1s rejoice for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to you, for you are the children of Abraham ( legitimate/illegitimate ? ). All my hopes were shattered and I was left in grief ad lifeless. That was a great relief this theory has brought to me.

If this is not convincing then there is still some chance for R1, R2, L, H, Q (big relief for the Knanaya ) etc may have been part of Jews as Abraham had 300+ men ready for war from his herds men. Israel was much wealthier than Abraham or Issac (he says ‘which I won through my Sword’). So by the time Israel went to Egypt these herdsmen would have been manifold (say some 5000 – 10000including children ). Otherwise it wouldnt have been possible for Israel and the 109 souls in his family to lead all these wealth (cattle and sheep) to Egypt on their own. Also it wouldnt have been possible for the hebrews to be numbered around 3million at the Mount of Sinai (around 600000 men of age above 18) in a short span of 430 years. So considering this R1/R2/H/L etc can claim that they belonged to the Hebrews (not from Abraham).

So I could go for an appeal and reenter the Championship.

Varghese:

You said you came up r1a1a. Isn’t this also associated with Iran? I ask because I see r1a1a in some families that seem to be from Thevallakara and Kollam — and these are the families that claim to be a part of the Mar Sabor immigration. Of course, I don’t know about *all* families from those regions … I just happened to notice some.

Out of curiosity — without asking you to reveal anything too personal — does your family come from Kollam, or are they descendants of people who came from Kollam?

As I mentioned earlier, there are reports in Malabar Gazetteer and KSP of a division in the Nasranis (not mutually endogamous divisions, just a basic division in terminology) between those who claimed to hail from Crangannore, and those who claimed to hail from Kollam.

To be totally rough, it seems that some Pakallomattom and other families who claim origin from more northern areas seem to have J2. I’m wondering whether those who claim to come from Kollam perhaps have R1a1. Ie., was this light division perhaps a Semitic/Aryan one, indicating perhaps descendants of differing immigrations from West Asia?

Dear Varghese Mani,

You wrote ‘. It is a known fact that Britain was responsible for carving a Jewish state out of the ‘Palestine’.

Please show me support that Britain supported the State of Israel. Lord Balfour and Churchill were leading Britissh citizens who supported Israel. But they were few, but never Britain, the nation. When the British left Palestine on completion of their mandate, gunshots were already in Palestine for taking control. Britain had given all support to the Arabs in all ways to push the Jews into the sea. Britain shamelessly wanted Arab oil wealth. Please, please prove me wrong.

brahimns nair are from aryan caste. which all they came from central asia. ancient time lot of migrations came from persia and many of non orthodox hertiage of early nasranis came from persia.
even people from syria who are locals also there, people who sell drinks, people who look after camels. so non of them are special.
if we see syria turkey persia then east part of iran there is zoroastran people began to hold mythological culture and the hindu aryans. bacially these all people are one without mix of any local admixture only different in culture in that geographical area. Bacially all these people are one.
once they reach in dravidian adivasi land of ancient india (i dont see it negetive )and these migrations of aryans in the north and persian syrian in kerala were less majority and they could not maintain their purity in such land and began to mix in following centuries.
what we look at to say is that our biblical culture from ancient to present came from ancient christiany and many forefathers were from them.
people see brahimns and nair are different because they dont have a heritage of christiany and their culture in being superstious belief and praying to idols. many of the ancient persians christians used the stories of brahimns converts and there are only few converts from these area.

Dear John,

It is r1a1 (but I thought it could be r1a1a/r1a1a1 based on some initial groupings)
R1a1 is the Indo-Iranian marker. But the trouble here is I have almost all of my exact matches (12/12) from northern/eastern europe ( altogether there are 54 12/12 matches). I will write in detail later and post a map which shows the matches.

I am in total confusion as I may not be able to say ‘Aham Brahmasmi’. My Aramaic past which I boasts of may be true, but may not have had that sort of an Aramaic past on malabar coast. Luckily I have an exact match from Anatolia which is the only key to this puzzle. Next one is in Romania, near the Ukrainian boarder. Then I have 2 exact matches in Lithuania ( not all matches are shown in the map though). So I am getting a clear map of human history/migration. I would have shared a common ancestor with these people in the past 29 generations. Which goes roughly 1000 -1200 years. (David to Jesus was 28 generations spanning a 1000 years). So clearly this would have been caused by an Islamic Onslaught I believe.

What is important is I dont have any exact match in India. I have 4 one step mutation (11/12) matches in India which are (1) bihar (2) Madhyapradesh Muslim (3) Kamath (Gauda saraswathar) (4) Nasrani.
So these are an earlier wave of Migration.

Any way I am totally confused and dont sleep more than 3-4 hours these days as my mind is full of confusion. We are from Kuravilangadu, and from an ancient family which boasts a lot about Namboothiri and Marthoma (not pakalomattom). I even thought about being a Tuppakki Christian. (god forbid).

Does anyone know why there is a tradition of ‘Kappalottam’ in Kuravilangadu ? What is the story behind this tradition ? I believe (Now I have arrived at such a belief) that there is some tradition related to an old migration. A kappalottam in Kuravilangadu doesnt make much sense otherwise

John, any idea ?

John,

Malabar Gazette is not that old. It was compiled in 1905 only.
Also it is interesting to find that the Knanayas have hijacked the ‘Paykkappal’ from Kuravilangadu and made it part of their official coat of arms.

Varghese:

A few points:

1. If “Kappalottam” is that tradition where they play around with the boat in Kuruvalingad, then this is definitely nothing to do with migrations! Rather it is nothing other than a ceremony that concerns the Rogation of the Ninevites fast, which is a general Syriac (East and West) festival — one of the greatest non-mandatory ones — that recalls the repentance of the Ninevites at the behest of the Prophet Jonah. The Syriacs had much affinity for Nineveh since it was their ancient city, and hence they took the story of Jonah and the consequent repentance of Nineveh — the pagan forefathers of the Syriacs — very personally. From the East Syriacs, the festival spread to the West Syriacs, and to all Orientals.

2. Don’t loose too much sleep over the R1a1a; remember that this just indicates “ONE” of your ancestors. It tells only a very fractional story: i.e., your father’s father’s father’s … father’s line. It says nothing of your mother’s father’s mother’s father’s …, or your mother’s mother’s mother’s … line. For example, my mother’s mother’s father’s line is descended from Persia via the Maruvan SabrIsho immigration (if the Thulassery Manapurathu story is accurate), but there is no genetics test that can confirm this. And what if my father’s side is Pakallomattom, but is Pakallomattom because my great grandfather married a girl from Pakallomattom via the “Dethu” adoption system. Then yes, I am genetically Pakallomattom, but no test will show this either.

Kerala was the site of much intermixture between Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Persians, Arabs, Jews, etc. And those are just cultural names; it says nothing of their genetics. A Jew may have been a descendent of Jacob or a Hittite convert. The former would presumable show J*, the latter would show an “Aryan” marker. Greeks may have been Aryans, Myceneans, or perhaps an Eastern European settler in Greece.

It is known that there were Nestorians scattered throughout India, Afghanistan, Central Asia, etc. When the collapse happened, perhaps many of them immigrated via unknown immigrations to Kerala, intermarried, and became part of us.

It may be that your mother’s father is a direct line from a Jew, or an Arab, or an Aryan, or something else. But there is no test that can tell you that based on your own genes. You’d have to look to another relative of yours (in this case, your mother’s father’s son or grandson) to tell that story.

So the patriarchal marker only provides positive information (i.e., that one of your ancestors WAS something); it can not provide a negative fact (i.e., it can not be used to prove that all of your ancestors WERE NOT something).

To make the point clearer. Let’s take you and a modern Cohen Jew, whether from Europe, India, Africa or China. You test R1a1a and the Cohen is J2 CMH.

Let’s look 10 generations back, then each of you has at most 1024 ancestors that produced you. It may very well be that 1023/1024 of your ancestors were pure Jew J2 CMH, while 1/1024 of your ancestors (the direct male line one) was not. And it may very well be that 1023/1024 of the Cohen’s ancestors were Slavs, or Africans, or Chinese, while the direct male line one was J2 CMH.

Suppose the above. Regardless, no patriarchal line DNA test in the world would give you any indication for the 1023/1024 (almost 100%) Jewish heritage, because your father’s father’s father’s … father (that one single direct male line ancestor) was not a J2 CMH. And the Cohen may very well be a sub-Saharan African tribal, but since his direct male line ancestor was a J2 CMH, the test would provide him that result.

So the test can only provide positive info; it can not negate anything, other than to say that your pure male line ancestor was not something or other.

John,

I am not *fully* convinced with this feast of Jonah as per the local traditions (I had gone through Assyrian customs in wikipedia where it says about it. I agree). Why I am not *fully* convinced is on one reason – We have a 100+ old churches and 1000+ new ones. Except in Kuravilangadu, this feast is celebrated no where as far as I am aware of. Since we had known persian migrations and were fully (literally) under COE why dont we have this tradition elsewhere ?. What I believe is, these families may have immigrated at a later stage. I am interpreting the DNA data available at the Syrian Christian project. I agrees that this tradition stems from Assyrian culture but has a little doubt about why it is confined to just one parish.

Also what you says about the ancestors in general is true. But still our Paternal line is what we follows and this is important ( Dathu is a very valid point indeed).

Why I lost my sleep was mainly due to unnecessary thoughts (my stupidity) that arose as I went through the Map and the Matches. Almost all the exact 12/12 matches showing up at the Northern Europe and Eastern Europe and 5 cases of 23/25 matches with swede, German and Americans ( of ‘English’ Parentage). From r1a1 project I got 26 exact matches, all of them with unfamiliar names. Naturally I was stunned as I had done my homework earlier (from Ftdna). But ‘little’ knowledge is dangerous and I understand it now. 23/25 means I definitely shared (95.6% chance) a common ancestor with these people in the past 28 generations. But what I know (and my family Knows) is a Brahmin convert story from AD52.

A wiki analysis of r1a1 populations (see List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population. R1a1 is only in Europe as they says where as R1a1* and R1a1a1 are in south Asia ) put me in limbo. At one point I thought of being a Thuppakki Christian and the rest you knows. (George Mathew is right when he said ” The more a Nasrani Learns, the more stupid he becomes”) Now things are getting more clear. Anyway I feel more interested in these kind of stuff.

It is a possibility (highly likely) that non-J2/J1 were part of Israel when they came out of Egypt. So absence of J2a shouldnt mean you never had a Hebrew past.

If you are interested I have the Map in my picassa account (public)
http://www.picasaweb.google.com/varghesebarmani/
or
https://picasaweb.google.com/117823178673328157757/MigrationMap#5673472460596640930

“Lord Balfour and Churchill were leading Britissh citizens who supported Israel. But they were few, but never Britain, the nation”

Dear George, Please dont be foolish. When Churchil declared war on Japan, it wasnt Churchil the person who did that but the nation who was behind him. You are ignoring the fact that he was the British PM so his dicision is the decision of the whole country I dont know about it much, I will go through Wiki etc and produce some proof (This is a historical fact I can say). I will produce some proof tomorrow.

Good news – Israel and Greek Cyprus will share the huge Levant basin Gas field (which many times the size of KGD6 – one of the largest Gas discoveries in the recent past ).

Dear rps,

The sort of race purity was not always practical especially when you are emigrating to a new place in those times. Historically Virgins (daughters and sisters) were used to bridge different communities and to forge new alliances and to cement exsiting ones. So when a new community is emigrating to Malabar from somewhere else It would try to forge an alliance with one of the ruling/influential families, preferably from the same religious background and this was usaully done by marrying of your daughters/sisters to those families and to marry from those families.

I agrees one thing you says – There is nothing special being an aryan. There is nothing to be ashamed of being a Pariah (parayan) also – Genetically the French Dynasty (Luis xvi) was a Pariah (G2a3b1 – my recent wiki research.). So nothing to be proud of your ancestry and nothing to be ashamed of it as well. Ultimately it how you live.
A few years ago I read from some India today I think, about a Poor old man with dirty cloths in some UP village and he is the descendant of Bahadur Shah, the last Mugal emperror. Can you Imagine.

Where does the name Chummar comes from ? Any idea ? There was a AIR news reader sometimes back. This is common in Trissur Dist. John, do you know ?

Varghese:

Is there any evidence that Arameans/Assyrians practice this boat thing anywhere in West Asia? I haven’t heard of it. I think the Syriac ethos is generally a subdued one, more serene, and thoughful. Whereas in India we have ridiculously loud ways of “honoring” our feasts. So I strongly doubt this custom comes from anywhere other than India. It’s not an Assyrian custom, as far as I can see. Do you have anything to suggest it is?

Perhaps this Kuravalingad thing is just a local Church custom, created due to the situation there. Kuravalingad is far from being an ancient Church of our community tied with any of the ancient migrations. Cranganore and Kollam are the epicenters of immigrations, as per available evidence, and none of this playing with boats occurs there.

At least that’s my opinion. But perhaps a member of the Kuravalingad Church who knows more about this local custom can comment further.

Dear Varghese,

You misunderstood me. Church as a person was a Zionist. He is reputed to have said ‘.. make no mistake, I am a Zionist’. Before WW2, Britain had promised the Jews a Homeland by the Balfour declaration. During WW2 Churchill was the PM and after WW2 Churchill lost his PM post.

It was 14 May1948 and Britian had to leave Palestine. On the same day, Israel was (re)born. Churchill was out of the picture. Attlee was PM when Israel was reborn. Attlee’s administration did not support the birth of Israel. India shamefully opposed the rebirth of Israel. Britain abstained (in effect refused support). However, Isreal got recognized in the UN by 33:13. Her rebirth is considered by many as the greatest miracle after the ressurection of Isho. The chance of Israel being reborn was negative. It just happened against all human reasoning.

I can guide/recommend you through very informative and authorative books, books written by white Christian Canadians. What happened in 1948 was a small miracle compared to the return of the 12 tribes to their alloted land in Israel. I strongly suspect that you and me (or our children) as Nazereans, will be in the ‘return list’. Remember that the Nazerene is the complete Jew.

John, The feast is the same except this Kappalottom (i,e the 3day lent etc) which I think is unique to Kuravilangadu. Agrees that Kuravilngadu was an unlikely place for overseas emigrants to settle down, but who knows whether this tradition was brought to there by a secondary migration of an emigrant community, say from Kodungalloor. (I am trying to twist things to arrive at my story). As I goes through the Syrian Christian project, I am met with many interesting facts, which supports my theory of multiple waves of emigration (Pakalomattom too have that pattern). And I have two 11/12 matches in our project.

Iran connection is almost verifiable. Reason – Though only a single match, I have the highest percentage of exact matches (12/12 – 91% chance in 28 generations) in Georgia, which is north west of eastern Iran and next to anatolia. (Inaccurate as the no of samples is less but going the same pattern, roughly 2% of the Georgian population shares a common ancestor with me)
Georgia 1 - 1 46 N/A

I had been going through some Nasrani family websites and one thing is clear, we northists are second to none in weaving ether stories (George Mathew earlier said about this). Some even remember their ancestor purchasing land in AD337. That is even before the Southist story begins (in Malankar, origial story begins far earlier, with Simon the Zealot).
Every story has the same theme – Marthoma, Brahmin, Challenging the local Chieftain, Retribution, Exodus, Exceptional skills of the Ancestor, Invitation by the Neighbouring King/ Asylum request, Demonstrate extraordinary skills and courage, Jealousy from Nair chief, further Troubles, exodus …
It goes on.

I am also planning to tailor a story – confused with where to start – Crusade ? Byzantium ?

Dear George Mathew,

wiki / British Mandate for Palestine tells all the stories.
These are widely accepted facts. Arabs (Palestine) accuse Britain of ‘illegally’ creating Israel. There is only one thing that both Israelis and Palestinians would agree about that is the British Hand in the Creation of the the State of Israel. Creation (rebirth) of Israel is in accordance with God’s plans for us. ‘If god is with us who can stand against us’, reads psalm 21. It is the fulfilment of prophecies Jeremiah 32 and Daniel 9 as we know. But there is some thing very interesting about it – Mathematical Accuracy of the prophecies of Daniel. See http://www.bibleprobe.com/daniel1.htm for details.

Since India was trying the socialist model untill 1991, it was afraid of alienating its pseudo socialist Islamic friends (It is about these nations that we read “wolf in sheeps clothing’. ) and its muslims. Perhaps Soviet Union was opposing this. I have noticed that Russia is friendly to Jews, but not to a Jewish nation. Russian media – RT/RIANavosti/MNNews(like time) are always biased against the state of Israel. Perhaps they were afraid of the brain drain which eventually happened (dont see any other reason other than to stop the bright Jewish citizens from escaping their economy). It is more shameful when you learn that even though India didnt officially recognise Israel and didnt maintain any diplomatic relations with them, ( apparently for no reason other than the Islamic apartheid) we were never shy to use its technology, especially in Military (had maintained secret ties) and other fields.

Not surprised to see that you are keen on an aliyah. But everything *was* not that ok for the Cochinim in Israel. Things have improved much . See the following book review (Author is a Nasrani) http://www.himalmag.com/component/content/article/4538-the-cochin-mizrahi.html. Our govt has approved plans to give the Indian Jews a dual citizenship which is a good thing.

Any way I dont think we Nasranis should make an aliyah.
In Luke 5:36 our Esho says a parable

“No one tears a patch from a new garment and sews it on an old one. If he does, he will have torn the new garment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ”

We are the new wineskin (not exactly, some of us, including you are old wineskins with new wine).
No wonder why Jews vehemently deny their messiah “Old wine is better”.

In the Crusade film ‘Kingdom of Heaven’, Balian Godfrey says “The kingdom is here(head – mind) and here (chest – heart). I think that is giving a good message.

There are no historical references to the COE diocese of Kalyan after 1323, when the first bishop of Quilon, Pardeus collected the relics of 4 martyred missionaries. So what happend to this community of Syrian Christians who were once large enough to have a bishop of their own ? Where did they go from there ? Got converted by force ? exterminated ? Portuguese didnt find any of them.

If they were native converts they could have been from the Dhangar community (or at least formed a majority). Even though the apostles (Thomas/Bartholomew who ever it was) came looking ‘for the lost sheep’ first, obviously they missed the Bene Israel (perhaps they came for them but couldnt find/convert them or may be only few of them accepted the faith and formed the Kalyan community). What ever happend Dhangars could have formed a majority of them. So where did they go ? If my Dhangar theory is true (Note that the Vellalla theory was originally discussed in this forum, but I took it from Wiki Talk Knanaya, but again from the same person – Easo Pothen (thank you) where as the Kallar theory is from Kizhakken), then it is possible that our Kna brothers were those Syrian christians, who were evacuated from there (perhaps by paying a ransom) by some influential Christian figure (possibly Thomas of Cana) and brought down to Kodungalloor/Kollam).

Interestingly the old Knanaya page in wiki has been restored to its full glory (except for the reference to northists being from the northern kingdom of Israel – that is a great relief).

Any one has any ideas ? I couldnt find any information anywhere. We have an article here about Pantaenus which doesnt say much.

Another possible proof for the Dhangar origin theory is about the Manglorean village of Kallianpur.
It is said that Mar Bartholomew evangelised a South Canarese community and there existed an ancient Christian community which could explain my ‘Kuruba Dhangar’ or ‘South Canarese’ theory.

http://konkanicatholics.blogspot.com/2006/08/st-bartholomews-india-connection.html reads

‘In their work, “The land called South Kanara” (2000, Image flex Publishers), William Pais and Vincent Mendonca add more background to the Kalyanpur-Barkur claims:

“Christianity has been long established in South Kanara and its adherents are more numerous here, than any other district of India. It is certain that, foreign Christian merchants were visiting the coastal town of Kanara and during that period of commerce some priests also might have accompanied them for evangelical work. According to tradition Kanara had its first missionary the Apostle St. Barthelomew, who landed on the shores of river Swarna at Colombianor Colombo village an ancient maritime port adjacent to Kallianpur, stayed there to preach. He was popularly called Bethel and so the origin of the place Barkur…”‘

Just like all other previous referrences as in the article, Baldeus Phillips in his ‘True story of the Voyages to the East Indies’ doesnt mention about a split in the community (this is 1703). It is from this book that the latest Knanaya theory has originated. They have hijacked the ‘martome’ mentioned here which probably half truth (and half puthencoor propaganda then – mentions about Sending syrian bishops which is crap.).

One thing is clear, all other ancient christian settlements under the COE have been suffering on the hands of persecutors (mostly moslems) and many have gone to extinction where as a few are on the line of extinction (Assyrian, Chaldean, Javanese etc). Only Nasrani have escaped all these (though we lost approx 10% of us at the hands of tipu).

The sea extended up to Kaduthuruthy just 10 kilometers away from Kuravilangad in those days. The same as the case with Niranam. No wonder that early Christians settled in such places.

How is the Nasrani a complete Jew?

Every strain and splinter of Christianity has something new to say. The early church and the early church fathers predicted that Israel will never be a nation. The New testament itself is hogwash and the greatest Antisemetic book ever written. The catholics and protestants have been the greater killers of jews than any nation or people group who hurt Israel. Hitler was a lutheran and inspired by Martin Luthers antisemetic works. Now yu all want to jump the new religious bandwagon that supports Israel? Your theology is shallow and changes with events in history. I agree with the DNA results but detest the theology and ideology being propogated. Here is the bottom line. The Essenes and the Nasranis are ones who left mainstream Judaism to follow herecies.

Dear Sam,

You wrote ‘..The Essenes and the Nasranis are ones who left mainstream Judaism.’

Isaiah 9 tells you clearly who is the Messiah. Many of Judha and Ephraim saw in Isaiah 9 Isho.
Many other idiots in Judha and Ephraim refused to read Isaiah 9 properly. The Malabar Nazerenes never ever persecuted the Jews. There was a seamless integration between the two.

In the rest of the world, there was persecution.

Hey guys! Great discussion. Sorry for not replying so late, I have been busy with exams.
Keeping this post short. Well kinda. Haha.

Varghese, your not a Knanaya basher. Have no fear.
You said that everyone wants to be a Jew. I have to disagree with this one. Jews are one of the most persecuted groups. I don’t even know where to begin. Ask anyone from any Islamic country. Or just read Al Jazeera. Antisemitism runs deep in Eastern Europe like Ukraine and Russia. Look at Russia Times. The majority of the Eastern European Jewish population has migrated. Many northern European countries like Norway are also in the bandwagon. Take a look at the Durban conference held in the UN which blatantly spews out Anti Jewish rhetoric. Or look to South America where Bolivian, Cuban, and Venezuelan leaders openly state Anti Jewish/Israel remarks. Or look within the US. The occupy Wall Street movement has been dancing with ideas like “Jews control Wall Street”. The other day in Brooklyn, J Street was vandalized as “Jew Street”. Maybe you missed Helen Thomas’ comment on Jews? In the UK there is The Gaurdian which spews out a lot of Anti Jewish columns and so many protests caused Ahava (a Jewish company) to close in London. The Catholic Church/Vatican still remains antisemitic (though it has improved). Many Christians blame Jews for the death of Jesus. I’ve even seen/heard Anti Jewish remarks first hand. People making Holocaust jokes, people blaming Jews for the economic crisis or the turm oil in the Middle East, etc. I even know a Nasrani fellow who is convinced Jews control the worlds money. (Oh the irony!)

John, you said, “I strongly suspect that you and me (or our children) as Nazereans, will be in the ‘return list’. Remember that the Nazerene is the complete Jew.”
High hopes you have. I am sorry to inform you that this will not happen. The law of return is for those who practice Judaism (which Nasrani and Knanaya do not). Or has at least a mother who was Jewish (practiced Judaism excluding Reform and Conservative). Which every Nasrani and Knanaya fails. The only way for you is to ‘return’ to Judaism. Reform and Conservative Judaism is not considered ‘Judaism’ by the Chief Rabbinate. So you are looking at Orthodox, Haredi (Ultra Orthodox), or Karaite.

Phil,
I am not a knanaya basher which I also agrees. I agrees that there are lot of anti-Jewish sentiments out there, especially in ‘white’ nations and also Islamic countries. All these are emanating from their jealousy which has no remedy.

But I dont think Al-Jazeera is anti Jewish, for I am fan of Al-Jazeera English and really sad that Indians are sceptical (govt and telcos) over this channels intentions and neutrality. To me there are only two channels which report truth 1. AlJazeera, 2. NHK world. All others are corrupt and biased, which serve diverse political/economic interests. BBC is Biased Broadcasting Corporation to be honest. All they say is just fabricated lies. They will issue power lists, corruption index lists, open/fairness lists etc time to time, just to get their agenda done. Its mostly oil, Trade etc. Dont trust any of these western media. They dont even cover this occupy wall street protest (which unfortunately has become a forefront of anti-Jewish shadow war of the jealous losers. )

Al-Jazeera English is very very neutral and ethical reporting. Good ME coverage. Even in ME issues where Israel is involved they gives a very honest and acceptable view. Sherine Tadros has become my eyes and ears in the holyland (now reporting from Egypt) Also they give a good coverage to India and issues specific to the third world (Africa/LA/India). Ethiopian/Kenyan Land grab by Indian companies, Endosulfan issue in Malabar, Mining issues in Orissa, Adivasi issues, gold mining issues.. all are covered with extreme professionalism and deep down reporting.

Plus they have some of the best faces in the Industry – Gida, Sherene Tadros.. A few good references to those ‘few’ extremely proud ‘Dravidian looking’ Kna ladies who boast a lot of ME origins.

I wouldn’t say just the White and Islamic countries. Cuba, Bolivia, and Venezuela are Latin. Even in India it seems to be growing. At least thats how I feel when I read the comments in Times of India or Hindustan Times. With so much hatred it’s hard to imagine why someone wants to be Jewish.

Yes, you are right about Al Jazeera English. However, When I was referring to Al Jazeera, I was referring to the Arabic language one. Apologizes for not being clear. NHK World, I just googled it. Is it Japanese? BBC YES! I’m glad you mentioned BBC cause your 100% correct about that one. That is total garbage. This Occupy Wall Street thing is really a disease. It’s spreading everywhere. It’s funny. The protesters are the 1%. The 99% are the ones that live in Somalia, Guatemala, or some other 3rd world country. And your right about the antisemitism in those protests. It’s really sickening.

For Middle East coverage I usually relied on Associated Press and Jerusalem Post. I used to use Hurriyet English but the quality has gone down the drain. Dang you know your stuff. Not many Indians who know what’s going on in the world (or even their country!) I watched a documentary about the land grab by Indian companies in Ethiopia (it was done by Journeyman Pictures. You can search for it on YouTube) and it’s really sad how these Indians are treating the native people. It just seems like colonialism. You’d think we’d learn from our past.

Haha. Your saying there are some references to Knas in Al Jazeera? I’d like to see that. Dang. I got sidetracked. Speaking of Dravidian features, I mentioned this earlier that I met a girl with Cochin Jews ancestry. She explained to me that her ancestors had converted to Judaism after working for the Cochin Jews for many years.

Then I found this article (http://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/metroplus/article828328.ece). There is a photo of a Cochin Jewish family and they have very Dravidian features. The most “Anglo” of the Cochin Jews are the Paradesi who came in the 15-16th century. The rest of the population appear very Dravidian. Here is another example (http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/29/stories/2008122956551800.htm). Hate to boast but even I look less Dravidian. Nothing wrong with being Dravidian of course. It seems really easy to confused a Yemeni and a Dravidian, (http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-00bd-ba02-7f7a/iftaaar-party-with-yemeni-people-sanaa-yemen+1152_12916671313-tpfil02aw-2036.jpg)

BTW, your English really has improved. Nice man!

Phil,

Anti-Semitism is nothing but jealousy. I agree with your observations – Latin American society is also increasingly getting anti-Jewish now. Reason is more of technical, basically they are all leftists now, socialism. Now there is a theological aspect to it. (God curses Ismail to be against everyone, to be like a wild ass. Now, a wild ass has an interesting behaviour – if you pull him forward, he will move backward. That is what the Muslims are doing now. When all other malayalis tie their mundu/kaily/dhothi to the right, they do it to the left. When all others right letters to the right, they do it to the left. When all others shave of their beard and keep their moustache, they shave off their moustaches and keep their beard. All others are getting increasingly liberal and secular but the Muslims are getting increasingly indoctrinated, idealogical, conservative and often extremists. When everyone is running after new gadgets and TVs they are banning TV ans radio being unislamic. Now they are the people of the moon. Now we all know who are the people of the moon, the people of the crescent, who makes annual pilgrimage to worship the moon stone. Also Christ says in Matthew 24:32 – “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near”. Fig tree is philosophically the tree of moon, i.e when all others are about to shed their leaves they are in bloom and brings in new leaves and branches. likewise fig trees grow and flourish in most of the inhospitable barren lands where other trees fails. When all other religions are in doom, it is flourishing so the end times are nearer. Like wise, for these Chandravamsis are also flourishing. There is yet another speciality, where ever they have a fight with others, the leftists or socialists/communists come for their rescue. See in Kerala all Communist leaders are rallying for the Palestinians where as our own borders are kept safe with Israeli technology. Communism, just like Islam is copied from the bible (Islam has hijacked all the prophets where as Marx has hijacked the theme itself with out the characters) and bother are always engaged in fighting Christianity and the Jews from whom it originated. Both are the the conspiracies of the devil for first he tried to eliminate Christianity and Israel using Islam but when Islam failed, he brought Marx and Lenin who tried their best. Even the communists consider Christ as the best comrade. What a heresy. No wonder the LatinAms are also increasingly anti-Jewish these days. (Chavez is a good leader though))

I had posted the first article a few weeks ago. They just look malayali. The Cochinim are a mix of the Jews and the descendants of the five castes (Kammalars) who were given by the Chera King Bhaskara Ravi Varman. (I am just going through a book ‘castes and tribes of south india’, which tells a lot). The Jews might have kept them and converted them after a few generations, finally intermarrying. Cochinim were of all colours, just as RAINBOW (or VIBJYOR) as any malayali community. There were people as fair as their Pardesim brothern, as dark as the local fishermen. But solomon and Ponnumon share a similar facial structure – long face, sharp nose. They should be related anyway.

Yemeni are more like mallus in general I think. I watched a documentary about last years of British occupation of Eden where most of the locals just look like us mallus, even their kaily mundu. (more like Muslim mappilas to be fair).

Hope you tried tuning to Al-Jazeera. Its highly recommended if you wants to see an independent view of what is happening around the world. Arabic channel may be spewing venom. Otherwise there wont be anyone tuning to it for sure. (Knowing your customer is key to success in any business. A good speaker would give his audience what they wants to listen. ) .

NHK is Japanese. I first tuned to it when I heard the tsunami. Very good channel, Just like Al-Jazeera. (Japanese dont want to rip-off any one. So they dont have any political agenda). Occupy wall street is again a symptom of jealousy. There is no proper remedy for it. The land grab is mosty by Marwari companies. I saw it in Al-Jazeera and a lot of Indian human rights activists were part of the discussion. Good to see that our own people are coming up against this injustice. It is even more appalling when you hear the actual lease amount, it is just 99cents/acre for 99 years.

There is nothing wrong with being a Dravidian, I was just pointing to a few among us who have never seen a mirror, but never backs out when it comes to boasting. All those boasters, which ever community they belongs to (southist/northist) should be deported to Andaman.

I have no problems with the Knanaya in general, but dont like some who are claiming to be from Mars and Uranus. I found some examples in yahoo groups. These are really funny.

1.
“Posted by Iraqi on July 23, 2003 at 10:14:57:

In Reply to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alex_187a posted by alex on November 25, 2002 at 16:01:28:

Excuse me but who the hell are you to make up your own belief of Knanayas. We Knas are full-blooded Assyrians/Iraqis since we practice endogamy.My entire family doesn’t look Indian at all. I’m fair skinned with brown hair. Since I technically don’t have Indian blood, I call myself ‘Indian but with Iraqi blood’, Our language is Aramaic in Church, not malayalam”

2. “Posted by Reza on July 23, 2003 at 21:10:38:

In Reply to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alex_187a posted by alex on November 25, 2002 at 16:01:28:

Alex, you’re probably some black-skinned marthoma and envy the knas. Knas never put themselves over the rest of kerala, you guys are just dealing with an inferiority complex. But you are right, many knas look like dark malayalees, but many look ‘middle eastern’. Maybe some knas are not ‘full’ as they claim to be”

The funny thing is they have even assumed Persian names and Iraqi citizenship. I think the govt should trace the IP and deport this IRAQI idiot to Iraq immediately.

Also if you wants to see the much boasted ‘fair skin’ please visit the youtube and search knanaya. Or better go to Chaitanya and search for some grooms or brides. (Everyone writes fair, but I think they are writing about the colour of their teeth.)

see there where some knanaya comming up to..i am middleastern, brown hair…..see they are not jacobite, they are not nestorian, there are not seperate jewish people converted to knanaya..nothing…
they re hijackers who are some innocent syrian as jacobites reached among syrian christians. these knanayas r hijacking these and making claims. These is moran mor ignatious saka came from syria and i dont see a single knanaya talking to them arabic or syric.
These knanayas better know that these middleeastern sense in many families and many are locally married and indian blood began to flow on em.
How many came to me here in us and asked are u egyptian or middleastern. i did not mind those and simply similed.
these middleastern blood line in many syrian christian families or atleast as mother side that is more the reality than some group make strong claims on it.
Go check some chantham charthu video and see the people there may look some ezhavas. they dont even have a clue sense of middleeastern.
while i saw a few knanaya house i know . yes there r few people have some orginal looks as middleastern looks. most probably jacobite families. and still there might be truth behind it.

To be honest I have never seen a Kna with Brown hair. Checked Youtube and found some one boasting of the same saying at Kna churches there are too many women with Ginger hair. What a joke. (I feel sorry for this man and his descendants for they will never qualify for a career in Air force or Navy’s Air wing – people with colour blindness are barred from taking Flying careers). I cant stop laughing. I had been to Kna churches many times, know a lot of Knas, frankly never seen one with such features. But I have noticed one thing – Majority of the Kna women have thick curly hair which is a Dravidian feature. But at the same time many northist women have light silky hair (not colour). Also a minority of northists have clear cats eyes, but I have seen only a *single* Kna with this feature. So no kna has ginger/brown hair. IF there are any then I would look in to Portugal for some clue.

Two top politicians with typical ‘fair kna’ looks (i.e many fair skinned knas have ‘deformed’ pentagon faces with thick chins’) are 1. Adv. V. Surendran Pillai (former transport minister, Kerala – belongs to Vellalla caste)
2. MDMK Chairman Vaiko (Vellalla Caste)

see i dont mind much clarifiacation nor to praise knanayas or ignore knanayas.
as far as my observations in a clear syrianchristian families has some syrian influences.
like meera jasmine from a marthoma family from tiruvilla ..i believe she has some syrian elements
but i cannot give anyone an explanation why i am saying this
this could be in many more ancient syrian christian nasrani families.
my home place also having kna families and kna church.
they re also playing with these mild elements of syrian just like we see in many non knas.
there where i start to agree with anyone these syrian elements which i believe how we r bit attached to syric language or how syric survied in our churches
the cases i believe there might be families came out from an orgin brahimns father. a jewish cohen father, a syrian or assyrian father.
and there people might be intermarried of any of these women.
and also we having dravidian influences too.
we all better agree with these fact and unite and share our christian faith.

I have seen many Knanaya people talk highly of themselves as if they are not Malayalee or Indian. The majority of Knanayas I have seen look very Indian. I see more brown skinned Knanayas than fair skinned. The other day, there was this idiot talking about how Knanayas look different because they are fair and have ginger hair. They consider the rest of us Nasranis as locally converted Hindus with no foreign DNA. The types of statements these people make are ridiculous. It’s sad that they are brain washed with all this Knanaya propaganda. I guess too much interbreeding will do this to people. The thought that these people are all related to each other is disgusting.

I totally agree with you, James. One of my friends who is a southist as well as a catechism teacher in his own parish was explaining the difference between his community and mine to our one Hindu friend. He narrated the story of arrival of Knai Thoma, and continued, “When he reached here, he saw many Brahmins walking around here “kurishum thookkiyittu” (wearing cross pendants). They had nothing, no churches, no priests, no holy mass, nothing related to Christianity. It was him (Knai Thoma) who first built churches, brought bishops from middle east, appointed priests, started holy mass, etc.” He again claimed: “When Israel was formed, we were invited to migrate there, since we are Jewish Christians. But our church fathers rejected the invitation, since it will be like going to a posh school as a normal teacher after administrating a govt. school as a headmaster. So we preferred this govt school.”

This may be the version of church history they are taught in their Sunday schools.

From Jacob Kuruvilla
To Administrator , NSC forum Arival of Thomas of Kana

I happened to read a few posts from Varghese Mani and a few others using derogatory connotation of communities least knowing the fact such a practice is against Indian law and calls for legal proceedings. Usage of words such as Ezhava , Dravidian or any other community for that matter should be with care and respect and with application of mind.
This ignorance is also reflected in some of the posts written by these people on historical events pertaining to the subject matter of this forum. As a moderator it is your duty to communicate this to the discussants in general and the guys mentioned above in particular. Attempts to save the skin later on by giving different twists to what has been said may not cut ice.

To Paul Xavier , Mani and James,
Episcopacy started in Malankara with Bishop Joseph of Uraha who accompanied Thomas of Kana and 72 families in 345 A.D and this immigration marks the beginning of Knanaya community in Malankara. The statement of Mr.Mani that “bishop Joseph of Uraha is a crap” in one of his post is not true and borne out of ignorance. In this context I will refer you to
the family history of Valiaveed tharavad a branch of Pakalomattom. These are non knanaya
families. Part of it I am reproducing here- Evidences of history can be found from records kept in some of the old families and these records will speak the truths. Mere conjectures have no meaning at all.
The History of the Valiyaveedu Family
Sometime in AD 52 four leading Brahmin families, Pakalomatton, Sankarapuri, Kalli and Kalikave got baptized by St Thomas, the apostel. These families were baptized at a place called Palayoor 50 Km north of Kodungalloor. During that time Kodungalloor was the capital of Chera Kingdom. In those days Kodungalloor was called Muzaris by the westerners. Among these four families only Pakalomattom and Sankarapuri were given the right for Priesthood by St Thomas. Later these four families shifted to the south of Kerala and reached Kuravilangad. They built a church there. All these four families stayed together around that church. The membersof the Pakalomattom family were staying closer to the church because of their activities connected with the church. It is belived that the consecration of the church was done by Bishop Mar Joseph who accompanied Thomas of Cana in the year AD 345. After the death of Mar Joseph the church activities were looked after by the native Arch-deacons. Most of the Arch-deacons were from the Pakalomattom family. Sometime between AD 300 and 500, some members of the Pakalomattom family shifted to a new and large house called Valiyaveedu near Kurupanthara junction beside the M C road. Even to this day this junction is known as Valiyaveedu junction.
In the 7th Centuary AD some members of the family led by Thomman Vamadevan Nampoothiri from Valiyaveedu of Kurupanthara moved to Kodasanadu which is now situated about three Kms South west of Pandalam. By the end of 9th Centaury AD, three saintly people led by Aboon Mar Dahana came to Valiyaveedu at Kodasanadu from the Middle-east. The Bishop stayed at Valiyaveedu and died in the year AD 905. He was buried in the family property and later a chapel was built there in his memory. Kurian Zachariah gave me this reference and I am thankful to him

Are you saying that terms such as Ezhava and Dravidian are derogatory ? Do you think a comparison of Ezhava or Dravidian to any other community is derogatory ? Why don’t you take your time and explain what is that derogatory connotation discussed in these posts ?

Comment section is what it is: Comments. These are different peoples opinions on the many posts discussed. It is childish to stamp these bluntly as derogatory ( with out mentioning what and for whom) according to your fancy when you neither have any answers to give nor any instances on derogatory remarks. If you feel that, digging deeply into Knanaya history opens up the actual facts about the so called’pure bloods’ and hence will be derogatory to their supremacy theory, then let it be so.

I am a Dravidian and am proud of my lineage. Any attempt such as this doesn’t add any value to the discussion. It is unacceptable in today’s civilized world where freedom of speech matters.

Mr.Poulose:
In the beginning itself in my post I said “giving different twist later on to save the skin will not cut ice”. It depends on the context at which words are used how they are used and the hidden meaning of usage of such words. The word “shumban” was used by one politician in a particular context. Later on he tried to give a different twist to the word saying that “Shumban” was a well meaning mythological character. But it did not cut ice.

I got nothing against the Knanaya community, but I just think they’re hypocrites. They believe they are something else which they are not. My cousin got married to a Knanaya girl in India recently. It surprised me that a Knanaya person wanted to marry a Mar Thoma person. The girl looked brown just like a regular Malayalee girl. My cousin is fair, tall, and sharp featured, basically he looks like a Persian guy. If he was an average looking Malayalee guy, then the wedding wouldn’t happen.

Jacob:Do not try the dirty political connotations you read in news papers over here,When you have nothing worthwhile to add.

Saint Thomas tradition very clearly mentions that Episcopacy stated here with the Arrival of Saint Thomas the Apostle. The earliest record for this is from 16th century. This is a claim which is substantiated by documents from sixteenth century. There are multiple records on this at least from 16th century onwards.

Do you have any proofs for the stupid Southist Claim you have posted here ? Are there any single document from 16th or 17th century which says Bishop Joseph of Uraha either came alone or with someone to Kerala ?

What document do you have which says Bishop Joseph of Uraha started Episcopacy in Kerala ? How old is that ? I started hearing this claim after the Southists of Kerala acquired their new name which is called “Knanaya” in 1980. This was part of one of the many claims they make with zero evidence. How old this history from Valiaveed ?

Southist got Episcopacy only in 1910 when Severios ditched Mar Dionysios.That is Southists the so called today’s “”Knanaya”"” got their first Bishop in the year 1910 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its extremely shameless to make such claims when we all know that in the period known to us ie, from 16th to 20th century the Southist did not even had any Bishop . They had to wait until 1910 to get their first bishop but there is no shortage of fantasy claims.Few stupids from these community have made a section of people appear as hypocrites by making all fantasy claims.

If you are not convinced with family history of Valiaveed tharavad with regard to Bishop Mar Joseph of Uraha I will refer you to the family history of Pakalomattom family which is very well known to you. Here again you find reference to Bishop Mar Joseph of Urha and Edessan Christians who accompanied Thomas of Kana:

“About Pakalomattom Panamkuzhy
The Pakalomattom Brahmins were the traditional Vedic instructionist teachers. They were called oathans in ancient Kerala. That may be why were given chief priest position. The Pakolomattom house house was furlong west of Palayur Church, and the house plot even now is existing in Survey No:64/7. The festival of Palayur Church falls on July-15, the supposed day in which the Brahmins accepted Christian faith. The other Brahmins cursed the place and left, thus in Malayalam the place came to be called “Sapakad” or cursed land, which later became “chavakkad” and now Chowghat. Many modern historians are of the opinion that Brahmins did not reach kerala before the 4th century. The Brahmin supremacy of Kerala became evident by the 8th century. This coincides with the decline of Budhism and Jainism in Kerala, largely due to the Advaita movement of Sankaracharya, (788-820 AD). But this does not mean that no Brahmins were there in the south.
http://tripatlas.com/Pakalomattom
The Karnavar of Pakalomattom family was Eravi karthan.The word “Karthan” meant Karthavu or priest . Also Nazaranees used to call their priests as “Kathanar “. Eravi (or Sun ) was a common Brahmin / Namboothiri name.
One of Cheppads received by Nazaranees was called “Eravikarthan Cheppad “. This Eravikarthan was the maethran of Mahadevarpattam .This Eravi karthan (AD 230)may be was an ancestor of the first maetran Eravi Karthan of Pakalomattom family .
Arkkidiyakon (Archdecon) title of Malankara was the monopoly of Pakalomattom family .
The days before the advent of foreign Maethrans (bishops), the high clergy posts vested exclusively with the Pakalomattom family. An unbroken chain of clergies were continued from Pakalomattom family for centuries.
Quoting the words of an olden Marthomacharitram Kallyanapattu
“… Thankamayolla Vedam Seekaricha Naralill
Shankarapuri yanum Pakalomattom ennum
Keerthi parukiya randu veettukarannu
Sleehakarthavin namathil
Thirupattavum Koduthu…”
http://www.indianchristianity.org/orthodox/forefathers.html
To read about the fathers who led the sabha , go to the above link
Our ancestor of Pakalomattom was baptized in the temple pond by Apostle St. Thomas in 52 AD in the village of Palayur in Northern Kerala. At that time Palayur was one of the 64 small Brahmin settlements in South India… There was also a Jewish settlement here. Even today one of the hills here is called Judakunnu (Jewish hill). Tradition says that St. Thomas preached to the Jewish community first before he preached to others.
One of the old archive records was found in the beginning of last century and quoted by Fr. Pediackel in his book, Marthomasleehayude charithram. In the Family History book of Palakunnathu family which is a branch of the Pakalomattom family records that the old survey documents showed that Pakalomattom family owned a land close to the present Palayur church.
After the conversion of the 4 Brahmin priests, the rest of the Brahmins of Palayur left the village cursing the land. So this area came to be known as cursed land, shapakad which later became Chavakad . The Shiva temple in Palayur was converted to a Christian Church. Even a 100 years ago, Brahmins did not drink, eat, or take ceremonial washings if they happened to be in this village. All the Brahmins from Palayur moved to the nearby village of Venmanad. There was a palm leaf record kept by a Brahmin family in Venmanad which is quoted by the famous church historian Rev. Dr Placid. Podipara that showed that in the Hindu kali era of 3158, a Christian sanyasi Thomas came to the village and converted few Brahmins by baptizing them in the temple pool and thus desecrated holy temple. So the rest of the Brahmins moved out of Palayur village.
Other than the above story, there are several customs and traditions in our families that point to an Arian and Brahmin connection.
When a child is born, giving honey (ponnum thenum) which is scratched with gold is a tradition among Brahmins and early Kerala Christians.
To give the first a male child the name of his paternal grandfather, and the second son, the name of the maternal grandfather is custom of early Kerala Christians and Brahmins. In the same way the first daughter is given the name of paternal grandmother and 2nd daughter given the name of maternal grandmother.
Children write their first alphabets over rice grains among the Brahmins and early Kerala Christians.
Most other communities in Kerala in the early centuries practiced matrilineal system of inheritance, but Brahmins and Christians practiced patrileneal system.
The system of giving dowry to daughters when they are married was same for Brahmins and Christians.
Tying minnu around the neck of the bride by the bridegroom during the wedding ceremony is even today practiced by Kerala Christians and Brahmins.
Giving mantrakodi (special clothes or sari) to the bride by the bridegroom during the ceremony is another similarity.
Padipura (annex building) at the entrance to house was allowed only for Brahmins and Christians in the early centuries.
Placing new clothes (kodi) on the dead bodies by close relatives was a custom prevalent among Christians and Brahmins even 50 years ago. For Brahmins, the clothes along with the body were cremated. For Christians, one or two new clothes will cover the body when it is buried, but the rest will be given away to the poor.
In the past, Christians from aristocratic families practiced ayitham and untouchability towards lower casts as the Brahmins did..
Moving out of Palayur
It is believed that our ancestors moved out Palayur village in the beginning of the 3rd century. The reasons for their migration out of Palayur are still a matter of speculation among the historians, but most agree that there was no organized religious persecution that caused them to leave.
One of the reasons suggested is that during 2nd century, there was a revival of Shiva worship and faith. There is a story that Manikya Chevakar, one of the Shiva devotees from Tamil came and debated many of the early Christians and reconverted them back to the Shiva faith.
According to Sangam recodsof the period, rulers and kings encouraged intellectual discussion and debates among different faiths. Probably it was in one of those discussions that Pantenius (190AD) of school of Alexandria debated local scholars and tried to establish the superiority of Christian faith. It is possible that our ancestors with their limited knowledge of Christian theology were unable to defend their faith with other learned Brahmins and so they decided to move out to a different place.
According to oral tradition, from Palayur our ancestors traveled south to Ankamali and stayed few days there. Then they continued their journey farther south and came to Ettumanoor.
While they reached Eattumanoor, as the time was getting late and dark, they approached he local temple authorities for help in finding a place to sleep. After finding out they were Brahmins, they arranged for their dinner. But once they found out that they had deserted their religion, the temple authorities arranged for them to stay in a place between Eattumanoor and Kuravilangad. This was an area set apart for the special worship of Bhadra Kali, the most vengeful deity of Hindu religion. The temple authorities thought that goddess would take vengeance on them. But to their great surprise, the temple authorities found that these visitors were doing well and they were safe and fearless.
Temple authorities allowed the new arrivals to stay in the locality. This place between Ettumanoor and Kuravilangad was the residence for our ancestors for some time.
There is also old government records according the great historian Chev. V. C. George that the plot no. 154 sub-division 490/12 was named valliapalli and it could be site where people from the 4 illams used for worship. There is also a plot No. 170 north of the temple titled shrapical. Chev. V.C. George thinks that it could have been a Christian rectory as word shrapical denotes.
Moving to Kuravilangad
Towards end of the 3rd century or the beginning of the 4th century, some members of the original 4 illams moved their residence close to the present St. Mary’s church in Kuravilangad. According old records, church was originally built in 337 AD.
There is a legend that St. Mary appeared to young few children of these illams and directed them to stream in the forest as they were thirsty. Later our ancestors built a church near this stream. This stream still flows near the church and people believe that water from this stream has miraculous powers.
Church was consecrated by Bishop Mar Jacob who came with Cana Thomas in 345 AD.
Though originally priests were from the Pakalomattom and Shankuthiri illams, later there were priests from all the four illams. It is believed that St. Thomas originally gave the priesthoods to the 2 illams because they were in charge of the temple in Palayur at the time of his visit and he wanted to continue that arrangement for some time.
Faith of our fathers:
In the sense that all Christian believers are the body of Christ and we are all one irrespective of our race, color, or to what particular denomination we belong to, we can say that all Christians are always interrelated. In the present ecumenical environment and in the light of 2nd Vatican Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, all Christians belong to the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of a universal Church.
But we Kerala Christians because of our isolated existence, was an indigenous Church with a unique ecclesial identity until the 16th century. We did not have any affiliations or contacts with any western Christian churches including Roman Catholic Church till 16th centaury. It is through the Portuguese colonial powers that we were introduced to the western Latin Christianity. In the same way, we were not always under the direct continuous control of the Jacobite Church of Antioch before the arrival of Mar Gregoriose in 1665.
It is safe to say that our ancestors were Christian in faith, Indian in culture, and Syrian in liturgy.
After the baptism of our ancestors, we had priests first from Pakalomattom and Sankuthiri illams and later from all the four illams. But for the first 300 years we did not have any ecclesiastical contact with any other churches. Our first contact was with the Edessan Christians when they arrived in our shores with Thomas of Cana and Bishop Mar Joseph of Uraha in 345 AD. At that time, Edessa was under the Patriarchal See of Antioch. Later at our request and some times on their own, several prelates from Babylon, Alexandria, and Syria visited us. We had relations with eastern Syrian Caladean Church and western Syrian Church Antioch.
The Persian Church became 2 competing factions after the Nestorian controversy of the 5th century. One division under a Muphriana who was under the Patriarch of Antioch continued in the Jacobite Syrian Orthodox faith. The other division under a Catholicose who turned Nestorian in its faith after the 5th century. We had bishops from both divisions.
There is evidence that we have used eastern Syriac of the eastern Chaldean church and the western Syriac of the Antioch in of liturgies. At least in the 15th century, we had Nestorian bishops from Persia when the Portuguese first came to Kerala .
Though we had Syrian prelates from time to time, we had a republican form of administration for our churches. Members of each parish church with their priests managed affairs of the church independently. For all the Kerala churches, there was a common leader who was the Arch Deacon (Arkadayoken) from the Pakalomattom family. He had several civil powers as the head of the Syrian Christians. He was the chief spokesman for our community before the local rulers. The foreign priests and prelates from Syria never interfered in the local administration. Their duties were confined to ordaining priests and other sacramental duties.”
Still, if you are not convinced I would like to refer you to the book “history of Malankara Syrian Christians” written by Malankara Malpan Kaniamparambil Kurian Core episcopa where he has written about the arrival of Episcopacy in Malankara.
Regarding your utterence “Mar Sevariose ditching Mar Dynesius”
Mar Sevariose was consecrated as Bishop By H.H.Abded Aloho Ignasius Patriarch of Antioch at Vadakara church. The Patiarchal Stathikon (bull of Authority) given to newly annointed mar Sevariose read as follows:
“During our visit to India and Malankara We were convinced that there is an urgent need for the Southists to have a Bishop of their own and We have seen with Our divine eyes that there is God’s call in Geevarghese Ramban( later Mar Severiose ) to be your Bishop—————————–“
The entire Stathokon is given in the biography of Mar Severiose which is acailable with me for verification if required. For your information when Mar Sevariose was consecrated as Bishop Mar Dynesius was not even alive. Therefore, the word ditching is not only a lie but also inflamatory.
In my previous posts in this forum I have reiterated the facts most of the events in church history is passed on from generation to generations and documentary proof are available in churches, histories of old families etc. written in later times have to be relied for information. Documents in cellulosic matter will disintegrate during the passage of several centuries.

Thomas of Cana is indeed a fiction. The southist people were historically washermen who came from Tamil Nadu. In those days, ash was used to wash cloths and vessels. Both men and women from this community worked as washers. Since they had a habit of tying ash on the tip of their cloths, they were called as “Chaaramkettys” (Ash tiers). Northists (St. Thomas Christians) did not consider Chaaramkettys as Nasranis. They were mainly considered as a lower sub-caste of Nairs. Since the Chaaramkettys mainly worked near “Kinar” (Wells) and ponds, they were also called “Kinar Nair” (Well Nair). It was this “Kenar Nair” which later Syrianized as “Knanaya”. The Chaaramketty people spoke Tamil language. They are believed to be a branch of Vellala Chettys. Various Grantha Variyolas have references of the arrival of Chaaramkettys from Tamilakam. Chaaramketty women wore mainly Tamil-styled cloths like Saree, etc while Nasrani women strictly wore Chattayum Mundum. Besides these, Chaaramketty women used to have many other habits which Nasrani women did not have, such as wearing jasmine and other flowers on their hair, nose-piercing ornaments (Mookkuthi), etc.

Regarding Pakalomattom, they were converted to Christianity not by St. Thomas the Apostle, but by Mar Thoma, the Chaldean Bishop who visited Malabar in 1503 with other Chaldean delegates namely Mar Yabellaha, Mar Yakob and Mar Denaha. At that time, Nasrani men were not ready to become Bishops or priests. They were warriors and merchants by profession. It was a time of great wars and international trade when warriors and merchants were reputed in the society. Another reason was that those who become Bishops should follow celibacy, for which no Nasrani men were ready. The Chaldean Bishops wrote the Patriarch:

“In this society of Indians, believers lead a life similar to that of gentiles, who follow the teachings of their books and thus think that each person is associated with a job by his birth in a particular family or another, and whoever engage in a job that is not assigned to his ancestors considered as bringing disgrace to his forefathers and make himself an outcast.”

The Chaldean Bishops decided to convert some families from “priest caste” (Brahmins).

“.. Therefore we hope to bring some of these families to the true faith of our lord and thus to ensure these Indians never again have such a pathetic situation (of not having any priests). These people enjoy great reverence in the society. Their men can read and write their own language which most of the people here cannot do. Their prayers are in an ancient language called shenskhadim (Sanskrit), but even small children manage to learn this difficult language. We hope they will learn the prayers and songs of our holy church that were gifted to us by our pious forefathers.”

All other Bishops except Mar Thoma were visiting Malabar for their first time and thus they did not know local language. Only Mar Thoma knew to speak Malayalam. Therefore he took the responsibility of converting Namboothiri families. With his great effort, he could convert about eighteen Namboothiri Illoms to Christianity such as Kalli, Kaliyankavu, Kottakkali, Koykkam, Madamboor, Madathilan, Maliyakkal, Manki, Muttodan, Nedumpally, Pakalomattam, Panakkamattam, Pattamukkil, Sankarapuri, Thayyilan, etc.

The oral tradition that they were converted by “Mar Thoma” (Bishop) later gave rise to a misunderstanding that it was St. Thomas (Apostle) who converted them. This misunderstanding has caused much problems and confusions later. They are a third ethnic group in Syrian community. We can conclude the present Syrian Christians in Kerala consists of three ethnic groups.

1. St. Thomas Christians
2. Vellala Converts (Charamkettys)
3. Brahmin Converts (16th Century Converts)

i cannot really say that it might be a core truth or not what i am saying just like we see some syrian elements on syrian christians came true aramic traditions from longtime. few knanayas has some elements of syrian through some kind of marriages regardless of a genuine orgin. what i m more stressing there is nothing speical to knas compare to a suryani christians
and i am aganist their rebel nature aganist nasranis and they think they only know some histories and the nature to make fool or shouting to others.

Paul xaviour:
Even an infant in arms will laugh at you !!!

Good story by Jacob. There is no mention of Thomas of Cana in the official Pakalomattom history. IT reads ”
It is believed that a major portion of the four Brahmin converted families migrated to Kuravilangad. Many believe that it happened in the 4th century AD some say exactly 337 AD. Some historians are of the opinion that actually it is 337 K.E ie 824+337 = 1161 AD.”. Check Pakalomattamfamily.org. Anyway Pakalomattom is of ME origins, and confirmed cohen ancestry. This later Date is corroborative with DNA evidence, except for and Iranian 37/37 match which could be due to one or members of the family being taken as prisoners by the Persian muslims while on a delegation to persia for some ecclesiastical requests or so, and forced to marry some local women and thus starting a male line. But still the first reference to Arkadeyakon is in the 9th century, in the COE history. So this could point to a pre 870 AD conversion/migration. But interestingly the Thekkumbhagar community (or Knanaya or Knaim as they refer to themeselves) have nothing to do with Syria or Thomas of Cana. And claiming otherwise would not correct the past as the ancestors cannot make a trip to syria and be back here again. Jacob Kuruvilla, for your info today a mob of around 4000 syrians attacked Kerala’s Dravidian village of Kumily. You have given reference to some family website with high credibility. Wiki has far more credibility so Search Knanaya in Wiki and refer to that page in future. It is far more credible. (loads of Magen david stories, all cooked up yesterday).

“One of the reasons suggested is that during 2nd century, there was a revival of Shiva worship and faith. There is a story that Manikya Chevakar, one of the Shiva devotees from Tamil came and debated many of the early Christians and reconverted them back to the Shiva faith.”

Actually if you cross reference the name Manikya Chevakar,I found very few neutarl places where i came
across the name.However a search on Shaivism yielded the name Manikkavacakar.Lets see if we can connect the dots

Dear Paul Xavier,

Your post is quite interesting. Could you give the reference to the letters of Mar Thoma you have quoted above ?

Many stories seen in family histories are of doubtful credibility. Recently, I have read a family history writen by a famous family historian in which, the name of their ancestor in the first century was Devassia !!

To all,
Look at what non christians think about St.Thomas Christians. Excerpts from an article by Ishwar Sharan appeared in Acta Indica entitled ” The St.Thomas in India”.
So far we have been reading some hysterical comments on Knananites. hence for a change.
Who are the “St. Thomas” Christians of India?
Thomas of Cana or Knai Thoma led the first group of 72 Syrian Christian families to India in AD 345. There is no record of Christian communities in India prior to this date. Thomas of Cana and his companion Bishop Joseph of Edessa also brought with them the tradition of St. Thomas the Apostle of the East. Later, Christian communities in Kerala would identify Knai Thoma with Mar Thoma – Thomas of Cana with Thomas the Apostle – and claim St. Thomas had arrived in Kerala in AD 52 and established the first Christian church at Musiris – ancient port near present day Kodungallur – the main trading port of the time.
The Rev. Dr. G. Milne Rae of the Madras Christian College, in The Syrian Church in India, did not allow that St. Thomas came further east than Afghanistan. He told the Syrian Christians that they reasoned fallaciously about their identity and wove a fictitious story of their origin. Their claim that they were called “St. Thomas” Christians from the 1st century

Dear Varghees Mani,
I think that the begining of the arkadeakon erra started only after 824 AD. The Pakalomattom familly enjoyed the post of arkadeakon for a long period. They were really like the princes of christines in kerala. But eventually whenever speeking about the cheppeds which we got were not handed over to any arkadeakons. They were handed over either to some persian bishops or some person who represents the local christines. If arkadeakon erra was there from the 2nd century AD onwards, then these cheppeds should be handed over to them only since they were the head of the kerala nasranis.

Dear vinu,
dont we have 7 1/2 churches considered ancient.
That has nothing to do with syrian church.
those were the place with ancient jewish settlements and few brahimns might have converted.
yes then the syrians reached there and most of them should joined the st thomas christians.
otherwise how can we have a precise event of st thomas history that he landed kodugaloor and visited jewish settlements and converted and went to mylapore and died.
i m not saying this really true but it just not happened all of the sudden.
if st thomas visited persia umera. could also a reason persians came here.
there should be a reason either for persians or later syrian known our place that
it could be jewish settlements here in a good number.
and history does prove that.
mr ambooken an expert say many converted because they didnot have no choice of more jewish people from spain. and joined to the chiristian community here.
some familiy history say many jewish came to the way of christ and they were the first christians due to st thomas preaching.
if jews were here which is proven, and st thomas came here, then the first intention was to speak to them hebrew and later for the god grace he preached to brahimns or others mainy showing miracles.
there were many more brahimns converted but a good number went back to brahimnism. and few families with good faith stayed.
one thing is true that muzris was a known place in ancient and christian persians syrian jewish people known about these place.
i can voluntary say that many nasranis have semitic or middleastern influences. sort of an indianized forms over centuries.

i was thinkin that if we think knanayas are even veluthedath background that is not the case. even syrians, middleasterners, ancient jews lived and locally married. so anyway many of the nasrani mother side is indian. what knanaya cannot prove themselves that where they came from. does their dna denote any migratory history. no. while nasrani populations does.

regarding nasranis are hetrogenious mix. it contans lot of jew converted either by st thomas or some reasons many jews ended up in kerala and they merged to nasrani. Then the brahimn families, persian or central asians people as recorded mar sabor , mar afroth we are thinking as persian christians. then later on syrian or suryoyo came who are jacobites . infact who are knanayas?. syrian does seem to be racist or they does merged with converts.

parumela tirumeni has syrian orgin took initiatives to convert many dalits to orthodox christianity. many of the nasani crowds if we observe, many has syrian middleastern features. when we consider knanaya claim that they are the only west asians and rest of them are converts or hindus then that it not at all the truth.

i would think they does reflecting a racist attitude. they may be portughese decendents from goa. who seem hijackers came and carefully come close to nasrani community and married there syrian features women and they start claim that they are syrians. Their racist attitudes does not belong being syrian that they obssessed to being syrian actually they are potrughese or pattani group flowing around in kerala.not only that if we analyse syric christianity does go in west egypt ethiopia and form coptic church and they does intermarry african and middlestern features and african influences are there. is there any problem there? absolutely no.

actually there are plenty of nasrani middlestern women even married in to person who has indian orgin to say. but gues what they offsprings has syrian influence and if makes people attachments to syric among us. which is yet agin we are being suryani in someform regardless of patnreal orgin and i think that is nasrani.

there can be naranis who has jewish greek persian syrian brahimn , nair orgin or they married in to indian and they mixed to marry in all those group and hence we can be seen different features

Hello all,
I am a observant of this thread for 5 years. I belong to a northist (although this term is very new here in thrissur area) family having root in kunnamkulam and belong to ashtagrihas. I wish anybody can clear my doubts which are listed below, I would be much grateful.
1) If Thomas of Cana landed in kodungallur (say AD 300 or AD 700 or AD 900) why there is no historical symbol, say statues or any picture erected anywhere in the locality upto Ernakulam.
2) I served at Trivandrum for 5 years where I came to know these type of christians. I finally found a southist church (Pattoor) and intentionally gone there. I expected all people with exceptionally middle eastern look due to endogamy but found myself in a church similar to those in kanyakumari area. (pardon me No racism here). Especially I found their Vicar looking exceptionally Dravidian. They interviewed me(actually it was an assault) and asked my family name.since it was a famous name, I came to know that they understood the fact that I am not a southist and asked why I came there. My question is : “Is there any seperate Q’rbana for southists in SMC?!!! ” This had been occured to one of my senior (Who looks much more middle eastern than me) also.
3) I researched this site and found only fabricated stories about southists here and there. But I asked one Father in SMC that Is there any information regarding them (with new term knanaya/charamkettikal/Thekkumbhagar/southists) . He said Yes but with a grin in his face. I am sure that he was telling lie because the body language was worst in his whole life and my question was arised surprisingly. What is the opinion of jacobite fathers (especially If there is any jacobite northist fellows from thrissur) ?
Thanks in advance.
Jo

see this one does not seems to be a complicated matter taking about race and endogamy now days.

we very well know who is iraqi or arabs. all these people can be migrated to kerala from these middleastern region for the sake of christianity more likey orthodox christianity and that what we see welll suryoyo community and jacobites have good contact with them in syria.

its not that so much to understand. there are plenty of middleastern features among the nasranis if we analyzed . knanaya cannot create a new explantion for these among nasranis. even there are lot more middleastern kerala mix people in malabar muslims and some r literely fair.so what.

middleastern people can be little bit more fair but still sort of asian culture and as far as i see knanaya i dont see not surprise

i think knanayas are so much mixed people in kerala.and yet prove ydna only to indian matches and if we look at ,not some much surprise like a featured arabic or middleastern groups on knanaya people.

but one think i explain that all the families know if they came from middleast kurvilla korah epen kuren syrian kurikose and so many names in families are middleastern among nasranis. and if knanayas know for sure they father side r from middleast then i dont have no comment because u know some thing for sure.

i think there r brahimns converted and jews converted who r so much passionate in new faith through st thomas and later middleastern community and mixed and that is nasrani and nothing is orginal there and that is why there is so many muslim blood or middleatern featured and middleastern orgin people among nasranis.
Regarding St thomas christians
i was to check how the traditions of when a child born scrub golden chain or ring and mix in honey and give it to the child

giving child 28 day celebration.. can that it all come from brahimns?

there r brahimns presence when i analized that classic music, thali, superstious belief like rashikalam. nasranis being love to use ayurvedic medicenes. can all relate brahimn?

so some amont of brahimns indication that while lot of jew converts by st thomas some of these brahimns families can be converted that nasranis being hetrogeious mix. Again that is i want to highlite that there is nothing in complete who is pure brahimn or something. so brahimns converts families seems to hebrew influeces with the relatonship with early hebrew converts.

but the problem is men ego. even if they have hebrew or syrian influences men always claim we are brahimn because its somewhat true that those family men side start from an early brahimn convert . and there r many hebew decendent family throrogh the men side.

it could be happen in hebew community themselves that many r not patrneally jewish instead they r living a decendent of jewish community in cochin. but they may have these inflence through mother side or many other chances other than men side only

again when syrians came, some of them insprired to become nasranis and they split themselves that some want to marry in to nasrani family ..yet again that can bring nasrani a suryani influnces or then syrian decendent among nasranis. kuriakose epen kurian alexander korah

which that is what i think these days

nasranis seems to make kozhiketta. yeast formed appam, boiled egg gravey, and then the master part celebration of pessiah seems to hebew i think. i think actually we look at it is absent in syrian community . i dont think people is syria the suryoyo group celebraing pessiah. because they dont accept to be a comple hebrew as in israel. but it does present in nasranis.

Knas are probably related to the Thiyyas of Malabar. See that Thiyyas are absent from the whole of south and Kondungallor is the last post with Thiyya presence.

A few months ago Malayala Manorama Sunday Supplement had an article named ‘Thiyya Vamshavali’ where Dr. Nelliat Shyamalan (Manoj Night Shyamalan) makes a bold claim that the Thiyya haplogroup L is indeed from Europe and goes on to say that the name Thiyya comes from the Tian mountains where the Thiyya people stayed for some time on their journey to Malabar from Central Europe. He had even given a bogus Haplogroup origisn map where the haplogroup L origin is located around Switzerland and showing few other migratory patterns. His nonsensical claims and maps appear even more hilarious when you look at his dravidian features. Agree that being the father of Manoj Night Shyamalan he should have that spark of imagination. No wonder why his son is among the greatest Hollywood directors. But this is hyper imagination and feels like he is underestimating the commonsense of over a Crore manorma readers.

Anyway like the Knas the Thiyya are also have majority fair skinned people and the L haplogroup.

Also, the Vilakkathala Nair (I had a nair friend from kodungalloor who wouldnt disclose the Karayogam where his family is associated with when a dravidian looking full-nair friend asked about it and later found that he is from the vilakkathala nair community though he looks a nambiar/kaimal/menon) / Ezhavathi ( Ezhava priests) are typically fair skinned like the Knas.

Probably a conversion from one of these communities is also possible cause of a social segregation leading to endogamy

Post 82219
“Regarding Pakalomattom, they were converted to Christianity not by St. Thomas the Apostle, but by Mar Thoma, the Chaldean Bishop who visited Malabar in 1503 with other Chaldean delegates namely Mar Yabellaha, Mar Yakob and Mar Denaha.”

Dear Paul Xavier,

Could you please provide some reference for these ? Where did you get this from ? Especially it quotes some letters by the Chaldean Bishops to the Patriarch. M Thomas Antony had earlier asked for these.
Please give any reference/source. Would like to learn more about this.
I share similar views, but not sure about the dates 9th/12th/16th century ? – Sure that the Pakalomattom/Sankarapuri/Kalli/Kalivaku/Kottakkali/Nedungallel/Nedumpalli illoms werent there at the time of Mar Thoma sliha and should be a later conversion, after the Malayalam language came in to being. These names are Malayalam for sure. (Oommen Chandy’s Govt has just raised a claim that Malayalam is 2300 years old, to support classical language status for Malayalam – wow! )

Hello…

there is something I’m a bit unsure about. i distinctly remember reading somewhere that many records of northists were destroyed by the Portuguese. Didn’t anything like this happen to the knanaya? i mean their practices must have also been seen by the Portuguese as wrong. Could this account for the ‘lack of evidence’ of the existence of the Knanaya community? If what i said is wrong or dumb please forgive me as i am new to this whole knanaya-northist thing.

I just want to know my heritage and and it seems very mean of you to always bash Knanaya ‘pseudo-theories’ but not find it wrong when others make up their own theories e,g post 82219 where he says things that are based on his side of history alone. what he doesn’t say is the knanaya view of the ash tray thing. Knanaya carry ash as a reminder of the grief they felt for leaving their homeland. Even the story of the whole Knai thoma marrying a native chick, i mean i heard that since knai thoma was a good guy, all he did was help tie a cloth or something onto a native lady ( my Malayalam is not good so my translation isn’t exact). It was then said that some people saw this and told other people.

As many of us know from playing a game called broken telephone, the truth becomes distorted in the telling. and so the legend of knai thomman marrying a native was born. you cannot put much stock in what those euro recorder dudes recorded as they are simply 3rd party observers who see things from their own biased point of view.

You may say that these oral traditions are ridiculous, that’s exactly what they said about the Lemba..that is until those oral traditions turned out to be true. If what i said is utter stupidity please forgive me for i am but a 16 year old with a laptop.

but that is not the case. if todays knanaya people from atleast that knanaya tommen makkal, does not matter whatever the woman he married, his male generation supposed to be the same ydna side. if knanaya tommen is semitic then he should be j2,j1 E, G etc. and also the knanaya people. otherwise nasranis and knanayas also some mixed up generation from early centuries that somereason some middleastern features come to them. that is all

Where did Knanayas get the wedding son Baru Mariam from? This seems to be one of the most Suriyani aspects of the community.

On January 21 (Makaram 8), 1882, with the blessings of Mor Joseph Pulikkottil, eleven Knanaya priests assembled at St. Stephen’s Knanaya Church, Veliyanadu, and formed an organization called “Malankara Jacobite Syrian Knanaya Committee”. The meeting unanimously elected E. M. Philip Edavazhickal as the secretary and Uthuppan Thomma Puthenpurackal (Vazhayil) as the treasurer. The formation of this Knanaya Committee was a significant turning point in the Knanaya history. The Knanaya Committee codified rules and guidelines for the administration of the nine churches existed as of that date. Further, the Knanaya Committee was instrumental in bringing together the Knananites spread from Ramamangalam to Ranny based on their endogamous nature.

In 1910, upon Knanaya Committee’s request, Patriarch Ignatius Abdulla created a Knanaya Diocese with personal jurisdiction considering their ethnic background (i.e., all Knananites and their churches, irrespective of location, will be administered by the Knanaya Diocese). On August 31, 1910, the Patriarch ordained Fr. Geevarghese Edavazhickal (Mor Severious) as the first Knanaya Bishop. The Knanaya Diocese which started with 9 churches now has 110 churches spread all over the world.Former Knanaya Metropolitans

Mor Severious Geevarghese, the first bishop of the Knanaya Diocese, was the tenth priest from the Edavazhickal family. He was one of the three Knanaya priests who initiated the formation of the Knanaya Committee. The foundation for the present Knanaya Church was laid during his tenure of 17 years. The first constitution of the Knanaya Diocese (1918), the establishment of the Knanaya Association (representative body of Knanaya churches) and the Severious Fund were few of the major achievements during Mor Severious’ time. His Grace also acquired the land (in Chingavanam) for the diocesan headquarters and began building the bishop’s house (Ephraim Seminary). Mor Severious passed away on June 11, 1927.

Mor Diascoros Thomas, the second bishop of the Knanaya Diocese, was ordained as Metropolitan at Jerusalem in 1926. After the death of Mor Severious, the Patriarch appointed Mor Diascoros as the diocesan Metropolitan. He was from the famous Thervaladi family descendants of the Knights of the 16th century Thekkumkoor Kingdom. Mor Diascoros lived a very pious and simple life. Construction of the Ephraim Seminary building was completed during his time. The Vanitha Mandiram (Kurichy) and Mor Severious High School (Ranny) were established during his time. The famous Patriarchal Bull #42, known as the “Magna Carta” of Knanaya Diocese, was issued during Mor Severious’ time. This bull decrees that Knanaya Diocese always shall be under the Holy See of Antioch and that they have the right to get bishops ordained by the Patriarch. Mor Diascoros joined Roman Catholic Church in November 1939.

For 12 years (1939-1951) after Mor Diascoros, Knanaya Diocese continued without a bishop. During this period Very Rev. Thamarappallil Abraham Cor-Episcopa and Very Rev. Purackal Thomas Cor-Episcopa served as administrators of the Diocese.

HE. Mor Clemis Abraham Metropolitan
Mor Clemis metropolitan is the third bishop of the Knanaya Diocese. He was born in the Vayala family at Ranni, on April 22 1918 as the son of Mr. Idiculla Kochidiculla Vayala and Pennamma Kalarickal. In 1931, he was ordained M’Samrono by H.G. Thomas Dioskoros. In 1932, he was ordained as a Korooyo at Ranni Valiapally by H. H. Ignatius Elias III. Dn.Oonnitten had the good fortune of being taught by Mor Julius Bava and Abdul Ahad Ramban who later became the Patriarch on January 15, 1947. He was ordained a priest at Ranni Valiyapally by Mar Julius Metropolitan in 1947 H. H. Patriarch Ignatius Aprem I ordained him a Ramban on April 8, 1951 and as the third Metropolitan of the Knanaya Diocese on April 15, 1951 at the Patriarchal Cathedral in Homs in Syria with the name Mor Clemis Abraham.
Mor Clemis Metropolitan and the Malankara Church Mor Clemis established himself as the veritable leader of not only the Knanaya Community but also of the Malankara Church. As a result he was elected as the Malankara Metropolitan in 1957. In 1982, recognizing his leadership and wisdom, His Holiness the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East, decorated Mor Clemis with the highest honor a bishop can receive, the title of “Kubernithi Hakimo” which means a ‘Wise Captain.’ Again in1989 His Holiness bestowed on Mor Clemis the position of “the Chief Metropolitan of the East” recognizing his continued contributions to the whole Indian Christian Community. It is a position similar to that of the Catholicos.
Mor Clemis Metropolitan and the Knanaya Community Mor Clemis, the great champion of the Knanaya Community, is remembered for his personality and leadership. In 1956 the late Emperor Haile Selasse of Ethiopia was the guest of honor of Mor Clemis at Mar Ephraim Seminary. Mrs. Indira Gandhi visited the seminary in 1970. In 1997 the Vice-President of India Mr. K.R. Narayanan inaugurated the bishop’s Jubilee celebrations. The Community celebrated the Episcopal Jubilee of Mor Clemis on a grand scale in 2000 and His Holiness the Patriarch blessed the occasion with his presence. Mor Clemis was warmly welcomed by the present Pope John Paul on two occasions in the company of His Holiness the Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatius Zacha Iwas I. Mor Clemis was also a guest at the palace of the late President of Syria, Hafez Al Asaad. He was a member of the World Council of Churches and attended several of its meetings.

Mor Clemis Thirumeni is behind the organization structure of the Samudayam. He made all the churches belong to the Samudayam and started the transfer of the Clergies from one parish to the other. He established common salary scale, provident fund, pension scheme for the Priests. The theological as well as the secular education of the priests was made compulsory. The formation of the Sunday School Samajam with own Texts Books, Suvishesha Samajam. With the leadership of the Thirumeni, the Yuvajana Samajam which was started in 1901, became Knanaya Congress from 1985 and the participation of the youth for the development of the Samudayam was encouraged. For the spiritual reformation of the women of the Samudayam, the programmes of the Knanaya Women’s Association were increased. The inauguration and Dedication of the Nazareth Asramam was in 1962. The ministry of the sisterhood was encouraged by the establishment of the convents at Kurichy and Vadapuram. Knanaya Deepam, the official monthly of the Samudayam and a Printing Press was the fulfillment of the long hope of the Samudayam. The Knanaya Deepam acts as an important messenger of the news as well as the faith teaching of he Samudayam. Knanaya Residential School Chingavanam is our Programme of the education. The Mor Clemis Charitable Fund helps people in serving marriage purposes.
Administrators of the Knanaya Diocese For the Knanaya Samudayam there was no Bishop after Mor Dioskoros for 12 yearsd(1939-1951). During this period Very Rev. Thamarappallil Abraham Cor-Episcopa and Very Rev. Purackal Thomas Cor-Episcopa served as administrators of the Diocese.