Mar Sabrisho and Mar Piruz, Nasrani History

Dear Mr. M Thomas, Thanks for your reply. I …

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Comment posted Arrival of Mar Sabrisho and Mar Piruz, Earliest Reports, Copper Plates, Katheeshangal,Christians & Churches at Quilon by Jackson.

Dear Mr. M Thomas,

Thanks for your reply. I do not intend a negative but a constructive debate to learn more. Please take it in that regard. Further debate (if needed) on some notable points….

About Ayyapan: Though it doesnt suit this forum, I would still like to answer u doubts in short. From local Keralite Hindu traditions and legends, Ayyappan *is the son of Shiva* and Vishnu ! Yes, two males. But, yes the female incarnation of Vishnu called ‘Mohini’ is the mother of Ayyappa and Shiva the father. And other details I wont elaborate here. But Ayyapan is hardly known outside South India. Looks like a Dravidan-Aryan addition.

On peacocks on the St. Thomas Persian stone crosses (Nestorian crosses) : WHERE IS THE PEACOCK ??!!! Do you mean the figures on either sides on the top arch ? Those are not Peacocks ! They are just some characteristic figurines of Persian-style art/sculpture. Check other Persian arts, they are just not peacocks atleast. Atleast I havent read any archaeological interpretational data saying so. Well, the Syro-Malabar Church’s Kalyan diocese’s (which I belong to) symbol/logo has a modified version of the Nestorian cross which adds the peacocks to the base of it along with the lotus, to Indianize it. But the *original stone crosses* have NO peacocks….. I would like to learn more about this if Im wrong on this. Check the website below for its technical interpretation.

http://thenazrani.org/cross.htm

On T. P. Elias’s thesis: I’m not criticizing it as an authoritarian peer-reviewer, but just pointing out the additions to be made wrt the details on Hinduism and beliefs he has made, etc. Well, thats another topic and lets leave it for now as we dont need to debate on HInduism and likes here. Peer-reviewed articles are not ultimate scriptures and I understand this, as I myself come from a scientific background. It is always open for corrections and elaborations. Nothing to get defensive about it.

I have also read Bosco Puthur’s book u mentioned as reference atleast 5-6 times and read the debate in that, that indicates Thirukkural has a ‘Christian tone’ to it wrt aspects on virtues, etc. But there is also a criticism to this in the book that it may not be a Christian influence. Atleast it hasn’t been proved so far as the book suggests and u also stated. Again, there are various camps among historians as we know.

“Sankara’s revival based on one God theory can be considered as an influence from Christianity in the locality in that era.” (Your comment)………… What makes you say so ??? Adi Shankaracharya was a scholar or expert in the Vedams and Shastrams at the age of 8 and further commentaries (Bhashyams) by age 16. No where is it said or heard he had a ‘Biblical teaching’ background. That would never have been allowed in the then highly casteist Namboothiri society, rationally !! Its not even possible today in the 21st century unless someone is doing multi-religious degree or something ! When the Vedams themselves teach about the One-ness of God (Note please: the concept of Monotheism is absolutely there is the Vedas), why would one then neglect this source (the primary source for Shankaracharyar’s wisdom and learning) and attribute another source to his monotheistic teachings ? He could have seen and learnt the Christian monotheistic principles too. But the fact that you attribute his monotheistic teachings as influenced by Christianity is just not acceptable to me, especially when I can read about his background and more primary sources of learning.

Thats what I commented as to western historians misunderstanding monotheism in Hinduism (borrowed from the Vedams and original Aryan philosophy) to be borrowed from Christianity. When there is a more ancient source which we can track back to monotheistic concepts (more ancient than Christianity itself), lets accept it that that’s the source for monotheistic ideas in Hinduism (a religion that descends from Vedism). This is where I disagree that the Hindu literature influence with monotheistic overtones is simply *Christian borrowing*. No…. because there is a more ancient source, the Vedams, that teach monotheism, though they got clouded later.

Thats what also influenced Krishna’s teachings on anti-idolatory and dedication to One Supreme Power. So, just by dating the Mahabharata to the ADs doesnt mean Krishna also had Christian influence and Christ was Krishna or vice-versa because of similarity in some legends. The fact that separates Krishna from Jesus is the Passion, death and ressurection of Jesus, a historical event of the 1st cent AD, which has no similarity to any other individual in human history. Atleast not Krishna, AFAIK.

And for additional information. The Mahabharata is NOT dated 4th-5th cent. AD !! It is an historical epic that dates from Vedic time period starting from around 3139 BC (the Mahabharata War era) and the final touches to the *written text* was given till 4th-5th cent AD. The events that happened were actually far far early in the Dwaparyuga on the Vedic timeline. And Krishna’s timeline (thus the timeline for the Bhagvad Gita and teachings to Arjun) were in Dwaparyuga which preceded Kaliyuga. Kaliyuga started in 3102 BC as per calculations by Aryabhatta, the greatest mathematician and astronomer (born in 476 AD). Aryabhatta in his writings has noted these timelines and dates and calculations accurately. And Krishna was definitely born in the Dwaparyuga (approx, 3228 BC) thus, and thus the Gita is ascribed to the era before 3102 BC.

http://vibhanshu.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/timeline-of-mahabharata-3139-bc/

And Jesus was born around 6 or 7 BC. So, do we see any Christian influence to Krishna’s teachings (something that happened more than 3000 yrs before Christ) now or is it the Vedic teaching of pro-Monotheism ??? Okay, thats done I suppose !

And on “high quality Indian writers”: Nah, I think there are very few of them who are unbiased and really historically based. Same goes for western writers. Again, as I said historians have camps. And I dont have favourites. So yes, hope to hear on more debates soon, to learn more. Thanks.

Jackson