Dear BG,

I do agree with you that we can’t assume things. But we can’t just wait for ‘facts’ to drop into our laps. That will not happen. We have to hence make ‘leaps’ and be exposed to new ideas. I always suspected that the early disciples may have fled to India (I have even half jokingly stated this earlier), now Jackson is comming forward with the same thought. He is after the ‘missing link’ and so am I.

These are original thoughts, not taken from any books or lectures. So we have to continue to brainstorm.

Dear All,

I have already described some points and information on the Nasranis and the relation to the Jewish Essenes and the Qumran community. Below are few more comparative points which show striking similarities of Kerala Nasranis to the above groups as per scholars.

Nazarenes as we know is a term for the early Jewish followers of Jesus who were a distinct community separate from Judaism yet similar. They were different from the Ebionites who also were Jewish followers. They are know to have accepted gentiles also into the fold of Believers. The first usage of the term ‘Nazarenes’ is in Acts of Apostles. Below are some startling facts of the sect which is perfectly matching the beliefs of Kerala Nasranis.

The Essenes (possibly from ‘Ossim, meaning “Doers of Torah”) are/were those who wrote or collected the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea scrolls describes the Messianic and ascetic (Brahminical) beliefs of these Christian Jews. I have already provided related link and information on the same.

1). The Essenes called their “religion” as “THE WAY” as in Acts which when translated in Malayalam is gives the famous word “MARGAM”.

2). These Qumran sect/ Essenes referred themselves as the “followers of The Way”. Kerala Nasranis historically call themselves “MARGAVASIS” (same as above). The other name of the Essenes was the “New Covenenters”, ‘Children of Light’, etc… which describes early Christians perfectly. They also referred to themselves as ‘Yachad’ or ‘community’ and called each other brothers or sisters. Kerala Nasranis in early centuries till the time of divisions were one community. Nasranis are referred collectively as ‘ Vishvasigalude Kootaayma’ or ‘Community of Believers’ in some Qurbana prayers, same as the Essenes. The prayers also refer to the Believers as ‘Sahodari, Sahodaranmaru’ in Qurbanas or otherwise.

3) The Essenes were opposed to Orthodox Rabbinis Judaism and Pharisees and also were against the Romans, Hellenistic and Pagans like Greeks and were monotheistic. Kerala Nasranis were one and united till the portugues era against Western Pagan version of Christianity and were part of the Eastern Church for ecclesiastical purposes. Even after western influence the community fractionated into factions some opposing westernization.

4). The Essenes and Jewish Christians were labelled as “‘Judaizers’” by the Pagan western Christians like Romans and termed heretics and despised. Kerala Nasranis were also termed as “Sabbath-keeping Judaizers” by the Portuguese.

5). The Essenes were abstainers from meat and alcohol and lived spiritual and ascetic lives. This is strikingly similar to Brahminism and could probably explain the Brahmin-origin claims of many Nasranis. Similarly kerala Nasranis some of most spiritual and conservative Christians and higly religious people as compared to western christianity.

The Tamil poet Manimekkalai mentions about many of 2nd-3rd cent. Kerala Nasranis as been Essenes or Essanavadigal. How if there were no Essenes Jewish Christians in malabar in those early times much before Knanayas landed !

The Dead Sea Scrolls excavated from the Qumran caves describes about the Essenes, their beliefs, “Way” of life and that they were called Nasranis (in arabic) or Nazarenes (in eng.).

Ref: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/elite.html

Below is an article on the Nazarenes by Dr. James D. Tabor who is Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte where he has taught since 1989. He received his Ph.D. from the University of Chicago in 1982 in New Testament and Early Christian Literature. He previously held positions at the University of Notre Dame (1979-85) and the College of William and Mary (1985-89). His research interests have focused on the historical Jesus, Christian Origins and ancient Judaism.

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/ebionites.html

The term ‘Nasrani’ is Arabic word used by Arabs for these early christians as I said earlier, and if we as Kerala St. Thomas Christians are called Nasranis then read all above and entire available Nasrani history together. We can get sure answers for our heritage !!!

Dear All,

I have already enlisted the points of similarity between the Essenes and the Kerala Nasranis. However I missed out on an important point.

The Essenes had in their possession and used the Gospel of Mathew in Hebrew language (check Mr. James D. Thabor’s work). Similarly history reports that the Kerala Nasranis also possessed a copy and were familiar with the Gospel of Mathew in Hebrew and this fact is attested by Panteus of Alexandria (Egypt), a missionary, who visited Malabar in 180 AD. This is noted by Eusebius of Caeserea, 325 AD, in his work ‘Ecclesiastical Historia’ (History of the Church).

Looking at the historicity and literature aspect of the Gospel of Mathew it was written in Hebrew/Aramaic by apostle Mathew for the Jewish Christians who were Torah observant and used by them. And again if Thomas Christians of Kerala are reported to have this Gospel in Hebrew/Aramaic much earlier than 180 AD then most of it’s early members must be Jewish Christians who were well versed in Hebrew/Aramaic. Had they been Aryan Brahmins they would have translated it into a Sanskrit version and not used a foreign language Gospel in Hebrew/Aramaic.

Dear Jackson,

In your above points you mentioned “Kerala Nasranis were also termed as “Sabbath-keeping Judaizers” by the Portuguese” as your 4th point.

Could you provide the reference for that? I was searching for that reference without success.

This is not a light statement if the Portuguese have called us the “Sabbath keeping Judaizers” because that will definitely show us who we are.

Dear Jackson,

There are two points, I request you to comment,

1) What is the context of the Tamil poet Manimekkalai mentioning about the Essenes. Are you sure it is ‘Essenes’ and not ‘Easuu’ for in Tamil Easuu means Yeshu. I guess you may not have a ready response to this.

2) It is suprising to me that the word ‘Nasrani’ if Arabic in origin. I was under the impression that it came from the first mention of the ‘Nazerite vow’ given by Yahoweh to Moshe. This vow included abstaining from liqour and not cutting hair.
From the NT we read that Yeshua was from Nazerath. Which implies that this village/small town was named in connection with men who were under Nazrerite vow.

It is my supposistion that Yeshua would not have limited himself to any particular sect such as a Nazerite. Yeshua was called ‘ Jesus of Nazerath’ because he came from the village “Nazerath’ and perhaps not because he belonged to the sect of hyper puritan Jews called ‘Nazerites’. Perhaps the village ‘Nazerath’ was once or currently under heavy ‘Nazertie’ influence. This does not mean that Jesus was a Nazertie.

I can not suppose that Jesus would have limited himself to any sect such as the Nazerites. My main foundation for this supposition is that Jesus was not ‘monastic’ (I don’t mean to say that monastism is bad) but met life head long, meaning he wined and dined with prostitutes, outcasts, taxcollectors and supped with the rich. Maybe I am wrong here, he took up monastic life in the early years and then after gettting sufficient discipline, he met life head long but somehow this does not ring true of Jesus nature to me.

He knew (or did he not know) that his time on planet earth was only 33years and he wanted maximum interaction with man which means that he would have avoided monastic life. Or is it possible to be monastic yet in heavy interaction with men of the outside world? Was not Mother Teresa kind of monastic yet in super interaction with the outside world?

The point I was driving at was that how did we get the name ‘Nasrani’?, is it because we were followers of the Man from Nazerath or is it because our followers were of the Nazerite sect which predates Yeshua.

Or did the Nazerite sect fleeing persecution from the Middle East to Malabar did combine with the followers of St. Thomas who were otherwise normally called ‘Nazerenes’ as per the ‘Act s of the Apostles’?

As a topic of debate I will say that from the word ”Essenes’ in the Tamil poem, it appears that the connection is to the Nazerite sect (Brahmin connection, no meat eating etc…) and not to Nazerenes as per the Acts of the Apostles. The word Essenes in the Tamil poem if found ‘reliable’ is of great importance for unfolding the truth. Yet it is only one word, can only one word be so important?

I’m not sure whether I have mentioned the following on this forum before, but thought it would be relevant to the discussions on the origin of the name “Nazranee”.

Dr. Ray A. Pritz, a Jewish Studies scholar has also commented on the origin of the name “Nazarene” in his thesis/book “NAZARENE JEWISH CHRISTIANITY From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century” (The Magnes Press, The Hebrew University, Jerusalem, 1988). According to Dr. Pritz, “We would normally have considered that the name comes, of course, from “Jesus the Nazarene” and that Jesus’ title comes from the town of Nazareth. It’s not quite so sure that that’s the case actually. It’s, first of all, very unusual for any group to be called by the name of the town of their founder. Secondly, there is an etymological problem in getting from the name Nazareth which in Hebrew is “Naztrat” to the name “Nazarene” which is in Hebrew “Notzri”…..Many scholars feel that the title “Nazarene” for Jesus actually goes back to the prophecy in Isaiah chapter 11, where Isaiah says that out of the rot of Jesse would spring forth this branch, which in Hebrew is “netzer”. From that, it is quite possible to arrive at the adjective title “Notzri”…….”

Dear Achayan,

Your point is now one of the three posibilities.

How can one say that the ‘Nazerene Christians’ dissappeared when they were there in Persia and Malabar. Can’t understand that statment of yours!

By the way I was told by a Persian accquaintace that Urmiah is in Iranian Azerbaijan. There is now a modern independent country called ‘Azerbaijan’ but Iran also has a province/district called jAzerbaijan. It seems the famous lake there is salty and that one can float in that lake. What we learned earlier was that Urmiah was very buitiful and it had a good lake (with fresh water). Got to learn further.

About two hours ago, I also talked to a Kurdish colleauge and asked her to get more information about the Nasranis of her area. She did mention that the Kurds and the Nasranis were always fighting with each other in the past. I am really active, am I not?

This is contrary

Dear George,
That was not my statement, it was Dr. Pritz’s! In fact it is the title of his book (based on doctoral research, I think). The Nazarenes he referred to, who disappeared, were those of the early Jerusalem Church. It should be interesting to investigate any possible connection between the period of this disappearance and the period when other Nazranee groups, such as the one in Malabar as well as others, were strengthened through migrations…

Limited preview of contents of the book “Nazarene Jewish Christianity: From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century” is available at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vh84AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover

See contents, especially from page 11…

See also:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9004081089

Dear Joseph George,

‘Sabbath-keeping Judaizers’ was the term used by Claudius Buchanan (1811) for Nasranis when in Malabar in his writings. Prof. Menachery has also written on this in his works.

Ref: Claudius Buchanan (1811 AD), ‘Christian Researches in Asia: With Notices of the Translation of the Scriptures into the Oriental Languages’. 2nd ed. Boston: Armstron, Cornhill.

The earliest mention of Sabbath (Saturday) keeping was by Eusebius in 300 AD (in early christian writings) by the sect known as the Ebionites/Nazarenes, who Eusebius says also worshipped on the first day (Sunday).

I guess that statement by Buchanan and those by Menezes are some of the biggest overlooked evidence as to who we are !!!

Dear George

One confusion I guess which must be cleared is that the ‘Nazerites’ and the ‘Nazarenes’ are/were two different groups of people. Nazerites were NEVER a separate sect in Israel, NEITHER were they opposed to Rabbinic Judaism nor did they abstain from meat (but only from alcohol and hair-cut). They were essentially the most ascetic Jews holding a vow (something like a Brahmachari) and within the fold of Judaism and observing all Halaka and Jewish laws and were since the times of Moses.

That is not the case with Essenes, they were a historical distinct sect within Israel society comprising of priests of Zadokite-line, Pharisees, etc… who separated and were opposed to mainstream Rabbinic Judaism and its harressing laws interpreted by biased teachers. Essenes/Qumran sect developed in later BCs (~300 BC or so) after the Babylonian exile period ended. In the Christian period of apostles times they are known to be Messianic and called as ‘Nazarenes’ still following Essenic lifestyle (including meat abstinance by some among them). Jesus is doubted to belong to this Essenic sect or atleast have common ideas and opposed to the Jewish Orthodox Rabbinism of his times same as Essenes. But Nazerites were never so. Thus Jesus was NEVER a Nazerite but could have been an Essenic atleast in views as he is known to have consumed wine. Essenes customs changed as time evolved yet they were ascetics and always a separate sect. From them arose the Jewish Nazarene sect as a continuation as many Essenes accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Dead Sea scrolls attest this fact. And it was this community who were called ‘Nasranis’ in Arabic.

The South Indian epic of Manimekalai (written between 2nd and 3rd century CE) mentions the Nasrani people by the name Essanis/Issanis or Essanavadhigal (‘Issana’ sectarians) referring to one of the early Christian-Jewish sect within the Nasranis called Essenes as also attested by scholars. Unfortunately only this work mentions Nasranis as Essanis (Essene sectarians in english). This Essanis term has nothing to do with Yeshua or Esauu, atleast this interpretation is not said by scholars of Sangam but the Essenic sect interpretation is held true by them for Nasranis.

‘Manimekalai’ was written by Seethalai Saathanar, and is one of the masterpieces of Tamil Sangam literature and belongs to The Five Great Epics of Tamil Literature hence a very important and reliable work for reference.

“Kanchi or Kanchipuram was an important city that had trade connections as early as second century B.C. Sangam poems describe the city as lotus- shaped, and Manimekalai the great Tamil epic was set in this city.” (‘The Hindu’, Friday, Jan 5, 2007)

“With the disappearance of the Jewish-Christian community of Jerusalem at the time of the rebellion (A.D. 67-70), the question about circumcision and the observance of the Law ceased to be of any importance in the Church, and soon became a dead issue. At the beginning of the second century St. Ignatius of Antioch, it is true, still warns against Judaizers (Magnes., x, 3; viii, 1; Philad., vi, 1), but the danger was probably more a memory than a reality. During the rebellion the mass of the Jewish Christians of Palestine retired beyond the Jordan, where they gradually lost touch with the Gentiles and in the course of time split up into several sects. St. Justin (about 140 AD) distinguishes two kinds of Jewish Christians: those who observe the Law of Moses, but do not require its observance of others — with these he would hold communion, though in this all his contemporaries did not agree with him — and those who believe the Mosaic Law to be obligatory on all, whom he considers heretics (Dial. Cum Tryph., 47). If Justin is describing the Jewish Christians of his day, as he appears to do, they had changed little since Apostolic times. The accounts of later Fathers show them divided into three main sects: (a) the Nazarenes, who, while observing the Mosaic Law, seem to have been orthodox. They admitted the Divinity of Christ and the virginal birth; (b) the Ebionites, who denied the Divinity of Christ and virginal birth, and considered St. Paul as an apostate. It should be noted, however, that though the Fathers restrict the name Ebionite to the heretical Jewish Christians, the name was common to all; (c) an offshoot of the last infected with Gnosticism (cf. art. EBIONITES). After the middle of the fifth century the Jewish Christians disappear from history.”

(Ref: Catholic Encyclopedia, article on Nazarenes)

Personal Observation: In the above extract, the 67-70 AD period is the period of second destruction of Jerusalem and when Jews and the Qumran sect people (Essenes/Jewish Christians) are known to have been dispersed. Some of these are known might have arrived in Kerala alongwith the (Malabar) Jews. It is also mentioned above that they went beyond Jordan as I described earlier. Finally by 15th cent. AD they are said to have disappeared (or was only their identity wiped out and replaced by some other identity?) !!! How and where and Why ??? That is the exact period when the Portuguese Inquisition period was on including in India and Malabar. So does that mean that the Nasranis were also targeted and their customs and identity wiped out or replaced by a false one ?

We know that it was the Portuguese who did this to our community as testified in the Synod of Diamper Canon (1599) and as stated by Menezes that he did so to disprove our Jewish origins and impose that we were local converts. The Nasrani identity crisis and confusion seems to be created henceforth. So I guess that gives us a hint to our pre-portuguese identity as to who we were then (and are) !

Dear Joseph George,

There is another evidence in the Jesuit writings of the western missionaries in India and Malabar of the Portugese against Malabar Christians.

St. Francis Xavier and other Portuguese are known to have arrived in Malabar in 1544/45 AD. On seeing the way of life of then Nasranis St. Francis wrote a letter in about 1546 AD to the then King of Portugal, D. Joao III, to install the Inquisition in Malabar. He also is known to have written in his letter that the then Christians “followed Jewish and Moorish (Semitic) ways and customs” which was setting a bad example for the conversion of other pagans/heathens and affecting Portuguese mission.

The above extract is from the Jesuit letters which can be found in many book references of that period of Church history and is also put up on an article on this forum somewhere. So that is another piece of evidence for our identity and heritage which was wiped by the Inquisition. Note that in Malabar the Inquisition affected not just Nasranis but also the Jews who were displaced from Kodungallur as per History.

Re: Sabbath-keeping Judaizer

This *may* not be as significant as it seems. The term “Judaizer” was used a lot throughout Christian history, including during the “wars” between the Jewish Christians and the nascent “orthodox/catholic” Christians (who eventually won the war…).

But more recently, it gained prominence during the Catholic Inquisition, where the Catholic Inquisitors used to label *any* custom that wreaked of Judaism (where true or not) as being a Judaizing custom.

So, for the Portuguese Inquisitors in India to describe us eastern Christians as “Judaizing” may only point to the eastern customs which were probably alien to the western Catholics.

Re: Our relationship to Jewish Christians

I think these links are very interesting.

If these links are in fact true, it is highly fitting that the Liturgy of St. James/Ya’cob was introduced (or, according to some theories, re-introduced) to India by the Syriac Orthodox Church in the 17th century, since it is *that* liturgy (one of the oldest, if not *the* oldest) that was written by one of the main proponents of Jewish Christianity—St. James.

Dear Jackson,

Thank you very much for the reference. Please bear with me if I sound too critical. Could you pinpoint the exact page where it says that the Portuguese called us “Sabbath keeping judaizers”?

I searched in the google books and tried to look in the ‘Christian Researches in Asia” but could not locate that phrase. I saw the passage where he says the Armenians were Sabbath keepers as I mentioned in one of my earlier comments. (Yes, some of the pages were missing in the google book preview. So it could be in those pages).

Please note that I am collecting and accumulating evidences, both strong and weak, which weigh the Balance (or weighing scale) of Namboothiri-Hebrew more on the side of Hebrew. But I want to sift and test these evidences before deciding on them. That is why I am curious about this.

I was also unable to see that phrase in the Diamper Synod Decrees (Geddes). From the reading of the decrees one thing was clear; that Bishop Alexis De Menesis was a meticulous person who noticed even the minute “heretical” (from his point of view) elements in the Nasrani faith. So if the Nasranis were keeping the Sabbath then definitely Menesis would have made a strong decree against such a Jewish practice. But he is silent on this.

Menesis was in Malabar in 1599 and Buchanan was in Malabar in 1806. So is it not doubtful what Menesis did not find in 1599, Buchanan found in 1806?

But there are clear hints in the Diamper decrees to show that the Nasranis were keeping the Sabbath long time ago. But through the centuries they lost the spiritual aspect of it. Thereafter what they got was only certain hang over features of Sabbath by the time Menesis came here and he prohibited even these in his decrees. I have explained these in my one erlier comment:
http://nasrani.net/2007/12/30/thomas-malabar-connection-the-jewish-heritage-a-biblical-analytical-approach/#comment-823

Dear Jackson,

It should not be impossible for us to get the actual ‘citation’ of Esseenes in the Tamil Epic. Actually we should have have with us written in the ancient Tamil script the actual words. This would be perhaps the earliest reference to our heritage.

Considering that Malayalam is the daughter of Tamil, it is heartening that the ‘mother’ has acknowledged existence of the Esseenes. After we get to see the citation, we should try find out what hapened to the Esseenes in Malabar. Did they go back to the Middle East or did they die in Malabar with no children (Hey! I remember that I may have read somewhere that the Esseenes were unmarried people or that very few of them married) or are we the full or part descendents of the Esseenes.

Those of us in Chennai can please get the citation from Tamil Literature/Language students/teachers. It is very important that we should have this reference in hand and critically study it.

Meanwhile, are you sure that “Moorish’ means Semetic and not Islamic?
The then Islamic Spain and Turkey etc. were Moorish but not Semetic.

Dear Jackson,

Thanks! I see your difference between ‘Nazerite and Nasrani’. From your perspective, I agree with you.
But to me they are one and the same, though I hate long hair on me and do enjoy some whisky and beer provided my 20 year old son does not know about it.

Dear Joseph G.,

After having gone thru’ Buchanan’s work there is indeed not a single direct statement with regards to Syrian Christians from Malabar termed ‘Judaizers’ BUT he describes in length of Armenian Christians who migrated from Persia and Mespotamia who were Sabbath-keepers and Judaizers having been Christians since the apostolic period in Pg. 259 of his work, ‘Christian Researches in Asia’, 1811 AD. These Christians are also recorded in various other works of historians to have migrated from Persia to India and particularly South India and Malabar and settled with the other Syrian Christians since ancient times. So is it these migrant group that is described as Sabbath-keepers by the Portuguese in Malabar who became have become a part of the Nasrani community ? Sounds vague but could give some hints. Read on for some info I stumbled over from a site…..

“Soon after the ascension of Christ three of His apostles, Thaddeus, Bartholomew and Jude, successively preached the gospel in Armenia.” (“Armenia, a Martyr Nation”, (1918) p.67). Note Armenia was a part of then ancient Persia and were also called ‘Persians’ then.

“As one glances over the Armenian Church calendar he is struck not only by the array of sacred feasts, but also by their frequent and severe fasts. It is further noteworthy that they not only keep Sabbath in the commemoration of Christ, but Saturday also in memory of the finished work of creation. (“Armenia, A Martyr Nation” pp.26,27).

There appears to be no record of the time and circumstances surrounding the first migrations of Armenians to India. But Firth, in his “Introduction to Indian Church History” (p.34) reminds us that in the seventh century Mesopotamia and Persia came under Moslem rule. These changed circumstances may have caused Armenian Christians to migrate to India where Christianity was tolerated. Both J.W. Kaye in his book, Christianity in India (1859) and Rev. Richard Collins in Missionary Enterprises in the East, refer to an Armenian merchant by the name of Thomas Cona as settling on Malabar Coast towards the close of the eighth century. The early Portuguese writers also give his nationality as Armenian, calling him Thomas Conares. So were these also part of the Nasrani community ?

Similarly presence of Armenian Christians from Persia in South India esp. the Coromandel is known by the presence of their tombs. There are also references from travelers and historians of Armenian Christian settlements in South India either as refugees or missionaries or traders. It could be these Christians joined and became one with the Nasranis of Malabar since their time of migration. What about the Persian Christians who migrated in 7th to 9th cent. AD under Mar Sabr Iso ? They could have also included the former group. The Mar Sabr Iso group is said to become one with the rest of Nasranis in Malabar.

Now since History proves including Buchanan that such Armenian Christians from the Persian empire were very much here as migrants in South India then where did they disappear as of today or did they fuse with the Malabar Christians over the period of their settlement ? Why not ?

While recently carrying out research in India the author received this interesting comment from Pastor Paulose Varghise, himself a convert from Syrian Christianity to Seventh-day Adventism:

“In Kerala we have a group of people called Chaldean Syrian Christians. They claim that they are the descendants of Thoma of Canna …. These people also agree that their forefathers kept the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week.It was my privilege to take the Adventist message to these people and they never disagreed. But the question why they observe Sunday is due to the pressure and practice of the present age.”

(Ref for above Info: http://www.temcat.com/Bible-Battle/inquisitive-4.htm)

So I guess the fact behind the statement in many articles stating that Nasranis were Sabbath keeping Judaizers seems to come from the above tradition of Persians/Armenians who also might have very well become one with the Nasranis in early times since their settlements.

Below are few points/extracts which I found important in this discussion from the work of Claudius Buchanan (1811 AD), ‘Christian Researches in Asia: With Notices of the Translation of the Scriptures into the Oriental Languages’. 2nd ed. Boston: Armstron, Cornhill. Extracts from the relative pages are as follows. My views are in brackets.

Pg. 107:

Comments by Kerala Nasranis as said to the Portuguese: “We are of the true faith, whatever you come from the West may be, for we come from the place where the followers of Christ were first called ‘Christians’.”

(The Nasranis state that they come from another place probably West Asia/Syria/Palestine coz that’s where the early followers were first called Christians not Malabar surely)

Pg. 126-127:

Buchanan says: “In every church and in many of the private houses of the Syrian Christians there are manuscripts in the Syriac language; and I have been successful in procuring some old and valued copies of the scriptures and other books, written in different ages and in different characters.”

Pg. 138:

Describes the visit of Buchanan in Angamali in January 1807. He writes that there he found both Syrian Christians and Jews living in the same street and a Jewish synagogue and a Syrian Church close to each other and says it to be an interesting spectacle.

(That indeed explains close relations between the two groups above and both living in the same street is note worthy as said by Buchanan)

Pg. 139:

Mentions that the Syriac version of the Scriptures was brought to India much before 325 AD and of an ancient date.

(Proving Syriac language and eastern traditions came to Malabar much before Knai Thoman grp of 345 AD but by whom? An earlier group of Jewish Christian migrants?)

Pg. 142:

Talks about the Syrian Christian tablets 6 in number and engravings in Persian or Babylonian language. The oldest of this grant plates is witnessesed by four Jews of rank and with a suffix to their names as ‘Magen’ or ‘Chief’. The names are engraved distinctly in old Hebrew charcters.

(Why will a Christian Tablet also carry names of Jewish witnesses in Hebrew if they don’t have relations to the Jews ?)

Dear All,

Let us see some more contradictory points which clearly distinguishes Namboothiris from Nasranis.
Those revisiting and rechecking Nasrani History and traditions may kindly consider these points too.

1). “Speech style” – a distinguishing factor

Namboothiris have a distinct dialect that is so much a part of their culture. As in any other speech form, culture has its overwhelming influence over the Namboothiri dialect too. They also have a peculiar intonation, diction and style of delivery in ordinary conversation.
1. Phonology
Observing the phonological (sound) system of the Namboothiri dialect, the striking point that one notes is, the tendency for Sanskritization. Aspirated stops like ph in “phalam” (result) and dh in “dhanam” (wealth) are pronounced as such by the older generation, while among the non-Namboothiris, this distinction need not often be strictly maintained.

2. Lexicon
The lexical items that are typically characteristic of Namboothiri speech, are large in number. Most of them are closely associated with the ever-so-many rituals that they used to observe.

MAATTITHAM :

The word “maattitham” itself is somewhat Namboothiri parlance and is indicative of imminent disaster. There are some house (Illam) names which have “maattitham” and if pronounced, it is believed to lead to some disaster or accident that day. Uttering the same in the morning makes it even more severe. Therefore, in ordinary conversation, only an alternative name is used. Often, the actual names can be seen only in official records, and many may not even know what it is.

Similarly, there are many animals and fruits, the names of which also have “maattitham”. This belief is true among non-Namboothiris also. For instance, the word “maarjaaran” is used instead of the common word “poocha” for cat, and “swaanan” instead of “patti” or “naaya” for dog. Similarly, though the common name for jackfruit is “chakka” which has got “maattitham”, it is called “panasam”, and “choriyan” (one that gives itches) for elephant yam (“chena”). One has to be particularly careful in the mornings of auspicious days, not to utter such words.

2). Scriptural Teaching and Recitation characteristic:

Namboothiris, who are entitled to recite Vedams, have evolved a rich and diversified culture of Vedam recitation. Their recitation is quite different from traditional vedam recitations in other parts of India. This is due to a variety of features, such as the pronunciation of Sanskrit in Kerala. An Important feature is “nasalization” with the Proto-Indo European (PIE) accent, a feature of Malayalam in general which seems to be relatively ancient. (In Sanskrit it was called “anunaasika athiprasaram”) Another reason may be that a much larger percentage of Malayalam words is of Sanskrit origin than is the case with Tamil. It may also be connected with the isolated development of the Namboothiri tradition, which was not exposed to contact with other traditions.

3). Proto-Indo European (PIE) accent and nasalization seen exclusively in Namboothiris only:

The Namboothiris are acknowledged as being among the foremost vedic scholars of India. In fact, among all the various Brahmin groups in India, it is “only” in the vedic chanting of the Namboothiris that one can find a relic of the PIE (Proto-Indo-European) language (in the form of some specific raised accent). This ancient oral tradition of Vedic chanting is getting extinct after merging of the erstwhile Princely ruled states of Cochin and Travancore to the Indian Union in A.D. 1947 in them.

(Above information is from the Namboothiri Encyclopedia and the Namboothiri official website)

MY COMMENTS…
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We don’t even see a hint of such an accent or style of speech or nasalization in speech in the Syrian Christians, which is peculiar to the Namboothiris alone and also recorded as a historical point which differentiates them from all other communities. Why don’t we see atleast some of the above peculiarities if Syrian Christians are from the same stock ? We hardly see any Syrian Christian who can even pronounce Sanskrit texts or literature perfectly and clearly (like a Namboothiri does) unless the person has specialized in Sanskrit, let alone seeing the above characters. Yet the accent and styles/phonology is restricted only to the Namboothiris. I have seen many Nasranis can’t pronounce Sanskrit words even faintly, forget clarity, which says that their tongues are not sharp or flexible enough. It is blunt and thick which causes the difficulty in the pronunciation. This is a characteristic of non-Aryans and non-Vedic groups. The word ‘Sanskrit’ itself means “Clear and Perfect Speech/Tongue”. A Big question: WHY ? Any thoughts…

Dear Jackson,

Wow! you are good! But you can not rest. You got to keep ploughing. Go. go, go, go, go……

Dear Theresea,

As and when convinient to you, please try to get to read about ‘Gold Meier’ (forgive spelling), she was the the leader of Israel/PM and a women. I certainly don’t want you to go to such an extend as she went for her people, but you can get a good feel of ‘utter dedication’.

Dear All’

Some more notable points:

1). The palms and feet of the Namboothiri bride were decorated with henna (“Mailaanchi” – Losonia inarmis).

This tradition of applying mailanchi/henna for the bride among Nasrani women is seen exclusively only in the Knanaya bridal traditions and not in the non-Knanayas.

2). While eating meals, Namboothiris sit facing east or west, south is permissible if unavoidable, but North is a TABOO ! Serve all the required food in the beginning itself, since serving again to polluted leaf is considered bad or additional leaf may be used. This is a part of their daily rites or ‘Nithyakarmangal’.

The only casteist practice related to food in the Nasrani community is, not sharing food/water with the lower castes. That is true for any community which ‘considers’ itself ‘high/privileged’ in the caste hierarchy. The above mentioned practices/taboos are simply not prevalent/observed. How much ‘Namboothiri’, are Nasranis then ?

3). Namboothiris are strict vegetarians traditionally and about Nasranis I need not elaborate how diametrically opposite they are in been elaborate non-vegetarians. Many Nasranis are simply ‘allergic’ to vegetarian food and cannot do without meat/fish.

The strong tendency of meat-consumption is a characteristic of the Israelites/Hebrews mentioned in the OT Books of Bible wherein Hebrews complain against Moses and Yahweh for not getting meat to eat.
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(Numbers 11: 4-6) “And the mixed multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlic. But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.”

(Numbers 11: 18- 22) Yahweh says to Moses, “And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat. Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days; But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?”. And Moses said, “The people, among whom I am, are six hundred thousand footmen; and thou hast said, I will give them flesh, that they may eat a whole month. Shall the flocks and the herds be slain for them, to suffice them? or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to suffice them?”

(Deut 12: 20) When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.

It was the above meat and fish lusting character of the Hebrews/Israelites that causes Yahweh to give a long list of allowed and forbidden foods which later developed into the Jewish ‘Kashrut’ food laws. All the above are also characters which define a Kerala Syrian Christian (The original thread article). And still His people say they are not His own, not among the Hebrews !

Some are of the opinion that early Aryans were meat eater. That may be true for some martial/warrior class communities like Kshatriyas, who are allowed to eat meat. Early Vedic Aryans were largely Vegetarians especially the Priestly class (Brahmanas) and vegetarianism is a part of the pre-Noahide laws (period before the great flood). Similarly Namboothiri Brahmans are considered to be the most ancient, orthodox and earliest Vedic Brahmans among all the Brahman groups in India and if they are strictest vegetarians then that explains it all.

Dear Jackson

While reading the papers of few secular and community writers i came across two views,

1. The view that Nasranis before the arrival of Portuguese and British were placed very above Nairs and in some regions they were considered at par with Namboothiris. The colonization of West especially the alliance of Nasranis with British and their accumulation of western practices widened the separate identity of Nasranis. During the course of time Nasranis were downgraded in social rank by the Hindu community because of their changing colors and Nair’s were elevated in social parlor.

2. Nairs and Nasranis were considered at par in society. With the alliance of Nasranis with West they gained in power and their started a Brahminsation of the Nasranis for social recognition.

Can you or anyone share opinions on this ?

The above posts from you were very informative.

In Kerala the Brahmins arrived much later than the Christian traders or missionaries came,that is the main reason that christian culture and ethos were able to shape the future of Kerala and Christians are playing a prominent role in all parts of society

Dear Cheziyan:

That is an exaggeration, and is possibly wrong.

It’s easy to make such statements, but do you have any evidence? The earliest we can date anything pertaining to Christianity in Kerala is the 7-8th century AD, which is after the Brahmins came, even taking a late date for Brahmin arrival. Adi Sankara’s time is about then.

Sure the Christians like to say we came back in the first-fourth centuries: but talk is cheap! The Brahmins say similar things to prove their antiquity in Kerala. At the very least, Aryan religions (Buddhism and Jainism) arrived in Kerala earlier than Christianity: large swaths of Kerala are known to have been domains of Buddhism.

Show me how Christians have shaped Kerala for everyone? Sure, for us Christians, our lifestyle was shaped by Christianity, but there are millions of others who probably had little impact from us. Certainly in arts and culture we had next to no obvious impact.

You’re playing fast and loose with history.

Very interesting comments Jack!
I think you have done a good research on the subject

Dear Cheziyan,

You are more or less correct when u said that Nasranis were considered ‘at par’ with the Namboothiris/Nairs in ‘social standing’. But any reliable historian, experts or article writer when writing on the above topic writes that : ‘Nasranis were considered at par in social standing or more correctly “IN NOBILITY” or class hierarchy in the existing Hindu society which was casteist’. Swami Vivekananda remarked on Kerala calling it ‘A madhouse of castes’ and therefore this ‘caste consciousness’ was like a ‘flu’ and easily caught. And this caste system rigidized only after the Namboothiri hegemony period was estbd. (post 7th or 8th cent. AD). And before this a caste structure is highly improbable and therefore the nasrani claims of been Namboothiris of 1st cent. AD refuted even by historians.

Similarly it is said in earlier times Nasranis would take a bath if polluted by the touch of a Nair and if true says that both belonged to different stocks in origin largely but later were considered at par with them in nobility because many Nasranis are said to have taken up military occupation under Hindu Kings in later centuries as trade clout declined due to Arab/Musilm takeover . Note that the Jews of Malabar also were part of such militaries like Nasranis and is strikingly similar. That doesn’t explain either that nasranis were ever Brahmins. Similarly this point too is another proof which can disprove the Brahminical origins of Nasranis because as per Vedic rules a Brahmin is never supposed to resort to weapons or ‘shastram’ and that is the exclusive duty of Kshatriya Aryans. But we do have Brahmin illams who are Kalari experts but they are different class among the namboothiris and developed in later centuries among those who did not practice Vedam studies, performing rituals, etc. They also have a specific name but I don’t recollect it now.

And it ‘may be’ right to say that Namboothiris Brahmins arrived as a bunch after 7th cent. AD or so but all Brahmins are not Namboothiris and this term itself is hardly a century old. There are references in Sangam period literature (200 BC-200 AD) of some Priestly class people in Chola and Chera (Kerala) kingdom performing priestly duties to Kings for their needs and thus highly favoured and respected. But these Brahmins are not said to be a settled or influential people. Similarly the identity of these Priests is not yet settled by historians because there are evidences that there was a Greek/Roman pagan temple in Kerala too in those early times. Similarly the duties that these priest performed is said to be a 6-fold duty which when seen carefully is strikingly similar to the 6-duties of the Israelite Priests (if u need details I can elaborate them, do tell me) ! Yes, no surprise either ! Hence it is not still settled whether they were Vedic Aryans or some other Priestly group. (Ref; Bosco Puthur, editor). So it’s just considered widely that there were Brahmins or Priestly class people in Chera Nadu then and then were also the Iyers, Iyyengars, etc. around in Chola Nadu who arrived much earlier since atleast 300 BC. But again we don’t have any Iyer claims or heritage…..

And hence here Mr. John Mathew is also correct in his view.

Dear John Mathew,

Yes Buddhism was very dominant in South India and there were established centres of Buddhism in South Kerala especially. The word for ‘church’, i.e. ‘Palli’ is itself from Pali language (of ancient Buddhist religion) and not Malayalam and means a ‘fort/palace’ in Pali language.

There is another reason given in history for Brahmin conversions. To counter the spreading clout of Buddhism some of the Aryan Brahmins are said to have accepted Christianity under Thomas or later under the subsequent eastern missionaries, because as we know Christians were then highly respected in the society in Kerala by the Kings. Thus it is seen as an attempt wherein some Brahmins did convert because Aryanism was not holding a sway on the local populace then, hence they are said to have Christianized and at the same time continued with their Brahminical/pagan practices. Thus history cannot be totally rejected but such minor conversion incidents have been blown out of proportion (if above account is true) and overhyped and again as Cheziyan said for ‘social recognition’ and ‘acceptance’ which the Kings themselves provided to Nasranis earlier, but in terms of privileges only, and not for inventing origin stories !

I guess those Kings need to “resurrected” and brought back to tell the truth ! [;)]

Dear Jackson,

I’m interested in your reference to a Greco-Roman pagan temple in Kerala. Could you please point me to a reference on this? I’d like to learn more.

Dear John Mathew,

The reference is as under :

“The expanding Greek settlers from Roman egypt had a temple dedicated to Augustus Caesar in Muziris/Kondungalloor as testified by the 4th cent. Peuntingerian table. (Ref: A. and M. Levi, ‘Itineraria picta’, Rome, 1967)”.

I have some related information on this foreign colonization of Malabar. Similarly u may also find some useful info from the below extracts from Bosco Puthur’s compilation book of research articles.

Topic writer: Pius Malekandathil, Dept. of History of Goa University

Other historians and research work writers/publishers and names of literary works related will be mentioned in subsequent posts.

Let us also see as to who could those ‘Priestly class’ people could be, an attempt from me for all to analyse.

Dear ALL,

Who are the Brahmins or Priestly class people that our history says of 1st cent. AD ? Read on…

Possible Greeks or Hellenists :

Ancient Malabar had contacts with the Roman empire which included Greece and Egypt (Alexandria port) since 1st cent. AD till about 400 AD after which Sassanid/Persian contacts began with matters of trade and maritime. Between the Roman empire and the East was Antioch in Syria, frm where traders used to travel to Greek city of Seleucia and parthian city of Ctesiphon (banks of euphrates) and thus traders moved eastwards. Similarly Alexandria in egypt was extensively used for trade with India/Malabar which had a heavy traffic of Indian/Egyptian/Greek/Roman/Jewish merchants to and fro from Egypt to Malabar (muziris/kodungalloor).
There are reports and documents proving such merchants in Kerala still preserved. Hellenistic (greek) traders had colonies in coastal India at Muziris and Kaveripattanam.

In Sangam Literature (300 BC – 300 AD) references to Yavanas (greeks) coming with gold and wine in ships and returning with pepper is mentioned, Akam 149 and Muziris was an important port for them, Akam 57. Some of these settled here and were employed as bodyguards/palace guards to local kings. (Ref: Mulaipattu)

The expanding Greek settlers from Roman egypt had a temple dedicated to Augustus Caesar in Muziris/Kondungalloor as testified by the 4th cent. Peuntingerian table. (Ref: A. and M. Levi, Itineraria picta, Rome, 1967).

Greek personal names are also mentioned in the ‘Acts of Judas Thomas’ with reference to Gondophares’ kingdom in NW and South India. Xanthipus, a deacon in the kingdom and Sifur, a presbyter. there is mention of a priest of the temple of Apollo made bishop and another greek, Asaphorus made priest in the kingdom.

So where these the greek priests and religious of Godnophares’ kingdom converted by Thomas and what our tradition says as ‘Brahmins’ been among the first converts ? Or where these priests and their names, Greek equivalent to Aryan Vedic names ? We have but few evidences of their presence in the kingdom confirming our tradition.

Conti…….

Aryans in Kerala/South India since 500 BC:

Before the 7th or 8th cent. AD migration of Namboothiris there were Brahmins/Priestly class people in South India including Kerala and Tamizhagam. The Namboothiri migration is said to have occured via. the western coast of India from North and thru’ Karnataka. There there were migrations of Aryans to the South and a major chunk of them entered Kerala/Tamizhagam through Tamil Nadu ever since 300 or 500 BC as written by historian K. K. Pillai.

He also argues that not all of these Brahmins in Tamilagam came from north and the existence of age-old divisions of Vadamar, Brahatcharanas and Ashtasahasram among the Brahmins of the South is indicative of the fact that only some Brahmins came from north and others had been absorbed frm among the natives of Tamizhagam and given status of Brahmins. These could include local Dravidian people too.

There was heavy traffic between North and South India thenas early as 300 BC via. the Dakshinapatha. As Kautilya/Chanakya mentions, items like Chaurneyam (a kind of pearl specially found in Periyar or Churni river) used to enter North India in the 4th cent. BC thru’ this route.

By 3rd cent. BC, Jains, Buddhists and Brahmins (all from Aryan stock) entered Tamizhagam whose influence is seen in the Tamil Brahmi inscriptions and in Sangam literature where references to North India cities and empires is made.

References to Brahmins in Sangam Literature

The Sangam work is dated 300 BC- 300 AD. Tolkapiyar, a Brahmin associated with the 2nd Sangam period (200 BC) mentions of the 6-fold duties of the Brahmins of Tamilagam. Lets come to this later.. It says of these people performing sacrifices and prayers to God and in-turn enjoying royal patronage and tax-free villages from the rulers for permanent settlement.

References to Brahmin presence in Chera kingdom, a part of then-kerala is also plentiful. But its not clear who were these Brahmins. Paranar, Kapilar and Palai Gauthamanar were some Brahmin poets who eulogized the glory of Chera kings in their songs. Chera kings used to follow the advice of these Brahmins and perform sacrifices. There is a literary work called ‘Padittupathu’ which mentions the land of the Cheras been abundantly blessed and prosperous due such priestly sacrifices. Kapilar mentions of these Brahmins receiving gold from the Chera kings for their duties. Padittupathu is one of the oldest works of Sangam literature.

There is also an inscription discovered from north karnataka dating to 3rd cent. AD which shows that the southward movement of Brahmins along the west coast started quiet earlier.
Thus there were Brahmins/Priestly people in Kerala and Tamilagam (Iyers/Iyyengars) who were not well-off as of the Brahmins later but were performing duties other than as priests. So it cud be these priestly groups of Tamilagam whom St. thomas converted and they cud have been the ancestors of the Iyers or some other indigenous priests. And after the persecution of christians in the later centuries in the Pandyan kingdom these converts must have escaped to Kerala and thus the legend of Brahmin converts also entered the Kerala Nasrani community thus giving fused traditions. But one must note that only the St. thomas christians and the Jews of malabar were traders largely till arabs took over and the other Hindus never were a trading community. So speculations remain.

The 6-fold duties of the Priestly class

The functions of the Priestly people as said in records and literature was:
1) Study of the Scriptures, 2) Teaching the scriptures, 3) Conducting sacrifices, 4) Officiating as priests in sacrifices, 5) Giving gifts and blessings to others, 6) Receiving gifts.

When we look at these duties they seem to be exactly the same as the duties of the Levites of Israel or the Israelite priestly duties.
1) Study of the Torah/Tanakh/Laws
2) Teaching the Laws to the other men
3) Performing sacrificial duties in the temple, (exclusive for Aaronite levites) a duty of chief priest.
4) Officiating as priests or helping the chief priest (for other non-aaronite levites)
5) Distributing blessed sacrificial parts to people after the sacrifice. Blessing the Israelites was the main duty of the Aaronite levites as mentioned in the OT book of Deut.
6) Receiving tithes/gifts from people and land from kings for residence and the Israelite priests never paid taxes.

Since the duties of those early Brahmins/Priestly people in Kerala/Chera kingdom is exactly same as the duties of the Israelite priests we cannot say for sure that these priests were exclusively Aryan Brahmins.

Sangam work and Christianity… any relation ?

I already mentioned about some Priestly people having mention in the Sangam literature. Let us see what the Sangam scholars and students of the same have to say on this. Basically Sangam is a literary work and not historical record of events and chronologies. It is composed of hundreds of poems to deities, kings, humanity, etc. The scholars of Sangam do agree that there are references to caste people in the Sangam era but these priestly people according to them where never an established or settled Brahmin group in the then-Kerala. The refernces to these Brahmins are to Brahmin poets and priests of temple if u read and analyse. U will also see that these Brahmins were favoured by local Kings and ‘given’ honour and they were mainly poets or artists in the Kings courts. There are neither any evidences of these Brahmins as settled with families and forming gramams or villages of their own. So those Aryan Brahmins seem to be ascetics or missionaries of North having come down south as missionaries of Buddhism, Jainism or Brahminism. So also no dates or places are mentioned of settlements if at all again because it is a poetic literary work.

Similarly since the Sangam work is dated 300 BC- 300 AD and was composed by poets of Tamilagam then surely it should have mentioned Thomas Christians and their way of life since some claim that it was these Brahmins of Sangam era of Tamilagam (including Kerala) who were converted.
But there is no reference in Sangam of any Aryan Brahmins of this era either from Cheramandalam or Tamilagam accepting Christianity or St. thomas been mentioned ! Sangam scholars even say that some Nasrani historians claim that it was these Brahmins mentioned in Sangam that converted but if this is true then why is there not any mention in Sangam of these ‘Brahmin Christians’ ? Thus the Brahmins of Sangam literature were neither estd. ppl nor did they ever convert or were converted by St. Thomas in the 1st cent. AD/ 52 AD as per their own historians and scholars. Or were they too few to be mentioned ?

The above posts are too exhaustive and therefore I request u all those interested in the topic to kindly go thru’ each of them and self-analyse. And comments are welcome.

Similarly I have some other info on who actually are the Hindu converts in the Nasrani community as of old and related evidences. I shall deal with them after the above info is understood. Please do inform after going thru’ the above to proceed.

Dear Jack,

It’s convenient if you could provide links so that we can refer to those sites or pages. This also gives an option for the readers to skip and see what you really want to say. Why don’t you pre-arrange with admin and publish an article regarding this topic of “Brahmin” so that others can comment on the same, including me.

Nasrani.net has become a part of all of us. Better we too help to run it smooth. Also it struggles to download sometime.

Just an opinion

Cheers BG

Dear Jackson,

‘…. And after the persecution of christians in the later centuries in the Pandyan kingdom these converts……”

Your above statement is new to me. Please can you comment!

Dear Mr. Biju George from NZ,

The matter I have posted is not a copy-past matter from some website or from a single page of an article. I already mentioned my reference (and some more are coming up), and since it’s a hard copy Book and matter not available online yet, I have selected and compiled, relavent matter from various research articles published by historians in the book and presented the same here as I possess one. Since u seem very much interested and also others I always suggest that u buy a personal copy of this book from the available sources/stores. This book is a very good work on almost all aspects of Nasrani History and related matters and is absolutely neutral for studying and comprehensible even for a new-comer to this topic and our History. So do get it as it is also affordable at Rs. 200 or less.

(Book titled ‘St. Thomas Christians and Nambudiris, Jews and Sangam Literature – A Historical Appraisal’ (2003), Editor: Bosco Puthur, LRC Publication, Kochi.)

And about struggling to download I think Admin has given the reasons for the same. So also at a net speed of 64 kbps with mine, it takes less than a minute for me to download so I think it’s not a big problem. And for a reason like this we can’t give an excuse of skipping something written as u said because it’s high time Nasranis stopped “skipping” ! I hope u won’t disagree here ! And what is written was understandable for me in the book so I don’t think we have any less smart Nasranis here that what is said is not understandable. Nasrani.net is indeed become a part of us for the same reason because matters are not suspicious or loosely stated. Good opinions anyways.

Regards.

Dear George mathew,

Yes that statement is true and has an evidence for support and as I said it comes in the next part which I will post within a day or two after Mr. Cheriyan and Mr. John are clear of the above posts as they were the ones who initiated the topic. Please do bear with me.

Dear Admin,
I have on earlier occassions highlighted the importance of ‘farming/agriculture’ as the only means of preserving our ‘Nasrani’ identity. Another very important (actually they go hand in hand/parallel with farming/agriculture) is the concept of ‘Joint/Extended families.

We had joint/extended families during the yesteyears. Now, it is considered ‘unsuitable’. Unless importance is given to the joint/extended families, the Nasrani legacy will be lost forever. This is not at all a ‘favorite topic’ for the best amongst us. But it is crucial for our survival. There is no problem to achieve it if we take a ‘Bible based attitude’ for day to day living.

Let us atleast address the issue.

Dear jack

Regarding the skipping, please take this as only a part time activity. We have lots of main stream stuffs to do, e.g. our professional studies (Venturing with Active.D and Citrix, even then I find some time on the comments of my brothers) helping kids, spending time with family and lots more. So as a dedicated person like you I just think that you should be more specific. End of the day none of us should be losers.

Cheers for your efforts.

Dear Jackson,

Earlier we had breifly discussed about the reference of the Esseenes in Sangam (?) literature/poetry. I had requested for some more information, but nothing came about. Wonder, if you can throw some light on the Esseenes in Sangam (?) literature/poetry? Atleast (when convinient) can you quote that specific part pertaining to the ‘Esseenes’ in the poetry?

Also, how can one be sure that the matter of ‘Esseenes’ was not added much later.

We have to pursue the ‘Esseenes’ matter as much as we can, not only will it help in matters of historic research, but also ‘Esseenism’ may be found to be very agreeable to our thinking, eg. Vegetarinism, non-violence, ascetic living etc.. are all very familiar to us Indians.

There are so many people who claim to be gifted in locating lost gold ornaments/people, can not at ateast one of these ‘seers’ tell us what happened in the past? Is it unchristian to contact a ‘seer’? I am informed that an achen in Potta has the gift, then can not Achen be contacted?

Dear George,

I had posted some additional info on the Essenes and where exactly is that mention made in Sangam work. That reference/work is of Sangam period (300 BC – 300 AD) so hopefully it’s not corrupted and is considered authentic among literary works and by the Sangam scholars. That too I had mentioned. It must be somewhere in that discussion thread. Also what I stated further was all I could get myself hence may not be sufficient literature-wise. But I guess we need to get some experts on Sangam for details. If u could try or anyone here with info on same may elaborate. As and when I get more info I shall post surely.

About consultations I don’t know and do not personally believe men more than God whatever the results or signs they may perform. No I’m not judging them. And I had also stated long time back that ‘Read the omens carefully of what’s happening today’ and we will understand what God is revealing as never was before ! And if this is understood I don’t think we need any human ‘seers’ because the ultimate authority is speaking ! We just need to ‘Listen’ to what He is saying to us (for all our doubts and questions no matter how silly it is) and the answer should be given if the connection is established. This too is a part of Essenic faith I guess ! Who else is a better historian and also a greater witness to all history ? Yahweh alone ! I may sound ‘out-worldly’ as Mr. John once said, but that’s my opinion and my faith. Therefore I neither agree nor disagree with you on this. And if God uses men for the same as u suggested then that too will happen no doubt.

Regards

Dear ALL,

I have already described with references as to the topic of the possible ‘Brahmins’ or Priestly class people of the early era of our history. So also the following information deals with the actual known Hindu converts in the Syrian Christian community with manuscriptal/documental evidence to support the same. References are stated alongwith.

Dear ALL,

The Hindu converts in the Syrian Christian community:

There are documental evidences for proving the existence of Hindu converts in the Syrian Xian community who largely were from Tamil Nadu (Coromandel coast) and ancient Thiruvithancode who later migrated to Kerala and joined the Kerala St. Thomas community. These were/are largely the Vellala and Dharia Chettiar converts of the early centuries.

The St. Mary’s Church, a half-church established by St. Thomas himself is probably one of the oldest Syrian Church of original Hindu style and resembles temple architecture in construction. It is in direct control of the Catholicos of the Orthodox Syrian Church of Kottayam. The land of 20 cents on which is stands was donated by the then Venadu ruler whose name is unknown.
Rev. Fr. K. M. Oomen, the Parish Priest of this church (as in 2003) says that St. Thomas converted 64 Hindu families and there was a colony of Syrian xians in Thiruvithancode which consisted largely of Dharia Chettiars/Chettikal converts to Christianity (Ref: Ibid., p. 41). But now there is only one family from these converts remaining named Thekkaiveedu or Thirusayikka Chettikals (Christians).

Another traditions among this group of converts holds that St. Thomas took 64 families of these largely Chettiar converts to Nagercoil, crossing the ghats thru’ the Aravamozhi pass thus confirming oral tradition with proofs. Many of these familes are either mixed with the other Surianis around while still many others reverted back to Hinduism during the Shaivite revival under Manikkavachakar while others moved to other areas in Kerala.

These Chettiar Christians of Thiruvithancode when threatened by Muslim invaders and conversions to Islam moved out to Aayur, Kundara, Kayamkulam and Karunagapalli. These were/are part of the Syrian Church (even today). These Chettiar converts if not today in ancient times had studs in their ears and tuft of hair on their heads (Kudumi). These ancient tamil christians were once followers of Jainism.

So the Kudumi (tuft of hair on the head) wearing Surianis in our traditions and folklore and history are most likely none other than these Chettiar Christians among the early converts.

References for above information:

F. Arokiasamy, ‘Indianization of Christian Art in Tamil Nadu: Sculpture and Architecture’, (unpublished Ph.D thesis, Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai, 1999).

C. V. Cheriyan, ‘The Indian Churches of St. Thomas’, 1967.

Campbell, ‘Anthropology of Syrian Christians’.

S. Padmanabhan, ‘The oldest church in Tamilnadu’, Indian Express, December 25,1992.

K. Sivadasan, Head of the Dept. of History of Manonmaniam Sundaranar University, Thirunelveli.
(He is the original composer of the article written above an extract of which I have presented)

Continued from above…………

Copper plate, Manuscripts, documental evidences:

The copper plates issued in 880 AD by the then Venad ruler, King Sthanu Ravi and prince Ayyanadigal (Ref: T. K. Joseph) to the Mar Sabriso group was given to the Tarisa Church built at Kollam by Sabriso. The plate refers to the church, the leaders of the Jews at Kollam and the leaders of Manigramam or the indigenous Christians of Kollam, who were there before the arrival of Sabriso and group. There are 72 grants in the plates to both the Nasrani Sabriso group and Jews issued separately.

A migration from the Coromandel coast (TN) to Kollam in the 4th cent. AD on account of persecution is mentioned in a palm-leaf manuscript (thaliyola grantham) entitled ‘Keralattil Marga vasiute Avastha’ or ‘The Affairs of Christianity in Malabar’ preserved in a Syrian Christian family known as “Karuthedathu”, in Mavelikara, Travancore. The manuscript gives the precise Christian era and dates. As per the same, in 239 AD the Chettiar/Vellala converts to Christianity of Kaveripattanam were persecuted by their King. Hence, 72 families embarked on a vessel and came to Kollam where there were already christians (Note that this 72 family migration theory is strikingly similar to the Knai Thomman group migration following persecution).

It is further written in the manuscript that “in AD 315, a sorcerer called Manikkavachakar came to Kollam and reconverted back to Hinduism, 116 persons of 8 of the 72 families of converts from the Coromandel coast and 20 families of local indigenous Christians of Kollam”.

Manigramam traders association of TN/Coromandel had its branch and activities at Kollam and Kodungalloor even in the 14th cent. Thus confirming manigramam traders were present at various ports across Coromandel and Malabar and were working in association with other west asian Nasranis and Jews. Maingramam is considered to be an ancient trading community or town consisting of the Hindu converts (Chettiar/Vellala Christians) who migrated to Malabar from the Coromandel coast (TN) and also of the Jews of Anjuvannam and the Mar Sabriso group of Christian Immigrants. References to these is seen in the Copper plate grants to the Nasranis and the Jews.

Excavations at Kaveripoompattanam/Kaveripattanam in TN and researches conducted suggest the name ‘manigramam’ was used by a community/association at the place Kaveripattanam which was an ancient port for trade. The excavations at the place indicate that the place is still called Manigramam. The indigenous Christians or local converts from Coromandel (Manigrammakar) are also said to be followers of a version of Christianity blended with hinduism and zoroastrianism (probable Manicheans)existing alongwith other Christians as said by historian H. Gundert in his work ‘Ancient Documents’ which is widely debated. Knai Thoman group is also said to be linked to this Manigraman group. (Ref: Bosco Puthur’s book as stated earlier).

References for above :

Rev. Dr. K. S. Mathew, Research paper on ‘St. Thomas Christians in Malabar from the 9th to the 16th centuries’.

Hermann Gundert, ‘Ancient Documents’ and ‘Madras Journal of Literature’.

T. K. Joseph, ‘Kerala Society Papers’,Trivandrum, 1997.

Dear Jackson,

Thanks!
I hope to have a ‘neutral mind’ as far as ‘seers’ go. I know that there are a lot of ‘frauds’ outthere, but I also suspect some with the gift. To be honest, I don’t know, but prepared to try and have been trying since the last 3 or 4 decades.

I found the site on technorati and read a few of the other posts. Keep up the good work. I just added the RSS feed to my Google News Reader. Looking forward to reading more ….

Dear Jackson

Very interesting and informative postings quoting a number of sources. It would be great if you can articulate the same as an article when you have free time. We also don’t write much about the warrior heritage of Nasranis. A sixteenth century Raja of Cochin was said to employ a particularly large unit of Syrian “harquebousiers”. According to an account by Gouvea ( Histoire P -253) the unit had a strength of 50,000. Many of our old churches were built by Hindu Kings as rewards for warrior services of the community. There are lot of family traditions and evidences especially among those Christians with Panicker honorary titles.

After examining the documents mentioned I have a doubt. This I read from few sources that, this Church was probably founded by Persian Christian Refugees fleeing from their native land to escape the terrible persecutions which the Sassanian Government instituted against them, first recorded in 327 A.D, and again, much more seriously, in 343.

Dear Vincent,

This statement of “founding of Christianity in India by Persian Christians in 4th century” is made based on the historical parallel of the Persian Zoroastrians, who fled Persia and eventually migrated to the western shores of the Indian subcontinent, where they finally settled.

The Persian Zoroastrians, who, at the beginning of the eighth century, fled to Western India ( known us Parsis) to escape the sword of Islam, gives this conjecture a certain plausibility, but most importantly we must consider that there are no scrap of actual evidence for even an or a large scale immigration of Persian Christians to South Indian shores in fourth century exists.

The Sassanid Empire of Persia were suspicious of Christians mostly because of their perceived ties to the Christian Roman Empire. But we see that, those Christians loyal to the Patriarchate of Babylon after the break of with Church of Rome were tolerated and even sometimes favored by the Sassanids.

There is less evidence for it, than for the Church of St. Thomas.

Thus we see that there is less evidence for such a founding by Persian Christians comparing to the early Christian writings and for the traditions of Church of St. Thomas Christians.

Further, the theory is now quite untenable and questioned due to lack of evidences.

From the documentary evidences which we have, we see that,

1] Bishop David, was sent from Mesopotamia to India towards the end of the third century, and
2] John, Metropolitan of Persia and India, in the first quarter of the fourth century, was present at the Nicene Council

It is now very much clear that, whatever one subscribe to the Apostolate of St.Thomas in India, the Christian movement in India was already in existence some considerable time before the Sassanian persecution broke out, ruling out founded by Persian Christians possibility.

Though we can not rule out migration of Persian Christians, from the evidences detailed, we see that Christian movement in India was in existence much before that. If such a large scale migration happened in 4th century, the primary reason it eventually ending up on shores of South India might be the existence of Christians of St. Thomas.

John, the English translation of the East Syrian Liturgy of Addai and Mari can be found below

Syro-Malabar – English translation

(Its kind of difficult to read, as it is in book let format, please go by the page numbers)

If you have an orkut id, you can check out Orkut, its the same in a more readable form.

Church of East
http://www.liturgies.net/Liturgies/Other/LiturgyOfTheAssyrianChurch.htm

Chaldea Catholic
http://www.kaldu.org/14_Reformed_ChaldeanMass/PeopleBook_Eng.html
http://www.kaldu.org/3_chaldean_culture/TheAnaphora_ApostlesAddai_Mari.html

An Explanation of Syro Malabar Mass (Video) can be found below but they are in Malayalam

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ55IjOm9tg
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF5yMN9SdsY
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtF5ENLP23Y
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjKl9RwktAU
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nocd50UpLxI

Hello Friends let me know from were i get free down load Orthodox Suriyani (Syirac) Qrbana song or any other Syirac songs pls frorward to me

Dear Nixon:

For starters, you could check out:
http://malankaraorthodoxchurch.in/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=204&catid=39

For completeness: could anyone point me to a similar repository of East Syriac (Church of the East or Syro-Malabar) songs?

Is there an online East Syriac prayer book (with an English translation for those of us who are linguistically-challenged…)?

All what is said about Manigramam,Church in Thiruvithamcode, represent the influence of Mani’s religion spread in Kancipuram, Mylapore and surrounding areas in 200-300 AD. They were converts of Mani,a new religion formed by mixing Chritianity ,Buddism,and Hinduism. Mani was known as SUbramani meaning one who believed in light as the first existence.His followers finally accepted Christinity or Hinduism later.A good number of them are now members of Syrian Christian Community in Kerala.They were mostly Chettys, trading community who used to keep accounts of the Revenue of Chera Rulers. They used to stay outside the palace called Manigramam so the word Mani gramam chettykal , referred to in Tharisapally Cheppeds.

The Thirivithamcode Church in South Kerala is often represented as one founded by ST Thomas.If one goes through the history of Mani’s religion spread in Kanchipuram and surrounding areas and the history of Manigramam people from200AD, it would be clear that those (Chettys) who migrated to Kerala had constructed a church in Thiruvithamcode. Mani’s religion being a mix of Christianity, Hinduism and Budhism,those people who migrated to kerala either accepted Hinduism or Christianity after Mani’s religion became extinct in later years.The Chettys (Veluthedathu and Karuthedathu)mostly traders ,near Kaveripattanam Quilon and Malinkara nea Kodungalloor had established a kingdom called Kanchipuram, centre of silk production .They also traded in peacock feathers , so the name Mylapore.They had a church on the site where the present Sant Thome Church Stands.The Church recostructed by the Portugese ,also the Manachean Cross unearthed from the site,bear all evidences of Mani’s religion mixed with different religion including Christianity.(The Cross on Little Mount and the phalavi writings, the dove at the top of the cross,the petals representing dark and light world, etc show the origin as of Persia ) . I am not going in details since my main subject is the Church at Thiruvithamcode. The Malankara Nazrani history shows only seven Churches founded by St Thomas and not 7 and a half. as believed by many Christians.(Ara in Tamil means important).Thiruvithamcode was added when the Chettys of this Church accepted Christianity .

Most of the Buddhist/Christian themes are in the pre-Christian Nikayas the rest show influence from the Mahayanists. I have written several books on this subject @ Fatherandsoneastiswest.com

Just to give district-wise demographic details following the statement about ‘Kottayam and adjoining districts’. The Christian population is 19 % according to 2001 census.

The largest number lives in Ernakulam district; almost a fifth of the total Christian population of Kerala. Kottayam, Trichur, Tiruvananthapuram and Pathanamthitta follow in that order. Of course this includes Latins also.

However I think when we speak about the distribution of Christian population we should remember that the districts of Pathanamthitta to Trichur, which have 40 % of the total population, had among them about 70 % of the State’s Christian population. In this the Latin segment would be significant only in the western parts of Ernakulam and Trichur. Therefore I feel that when we speak about Nazarani population we should refer to this belt rather than “kottayam and places around”!

I was looking for a response from somebody other than a christian but it seems that others are not concerned or have no opinion.As syrian christians,our concerns,as they appear from the comments,to establish our ‘sawarna’ superiority over the locals?

there are some facts from history most of the writings are imaginations or hypothesis based on some facts from here and there. all these imaginations and fantasies are based on a unprovened myth that st.thomas preached in malankara.

the catholicos of persia claimed that he is the catholicos of great india ie. afganistan..this is believable, that there reigned a king gudnaphar.
but malankara…people can only make fantasies and imaginations?…a problem of lack of recorded history….

P E Easo comment dated Jun 20 and 21 2008 about Manigramam,Thiruvithamcode Church, Manachean Cross etc…What factors are these theories on Manichean influence based ? Any refernce works about Manichean influence ?

Dear Luke,

You can read Whitehouse’s “Lingerings of Light …” (available on Google books) which describes Manichaeans in Kayamkulam and Kadamattom. It says that the Thiruvanthamcode Christians were a community that rejected Manichaeanism.

I’m not sure about Easo … he seems like an evangelical fanatic, with few valid credentials.

Correction: I mistakenly referred to P.E. Easo as an evangelical fanatic with dubious credentials. I apologize for this error—I had confused M.M. Ninan (who wrote an article relating Hinduism, Roman Catholicism and Manichaeanism as Christian heresies) with P.E. Easo. Now, Ninan, *is* an evangelical fanatic with no credentials…

It was a stupid mistake. It does seem that P.E. Easo has cited his source for the claim that the Knanaya are converts to Christiantiy from Manichaeanism: an article Mr. P.V. Mathew titled “Sugantha nadu Nasrani History”.

Has anyone seen the work by P.V. Mathew?

I have one comment … Easo claims that the Persian crosses are Manichaean. I don’t know if this is true or not; certainly Burnell (who did believe in Manichaeans in Kerala) admitted that the inscriptions on the crosses seemed Christian and not Manichaean. But then again, Manichaeans revered Christ.

At any rate, it is interesting that Kadamattom Church has a Persian Cross in it, and it was (apparently, according to Whitehouse) in an area with Manichaeans.

Luke:

RE: Manichaeans in Kerala

(1) Whitehouse, (2) Logan’s “Malabar Manual”, and (3) Burnell’s articles (you can find them on Archive.org if you search through the Asiatic Reseaches and Indian Antiquary journals) all discuss this issue.

P. E. Easo also discusses this, citing P. V. Mathew. However, I’m unsure of whether P.V. Mathew is trustworthy. One individual claims that P. V. Mathew’s work is a work of fantasy that cites “supernatural inspiration” as his source of knowledge, which makes me a little hesitant to trust either source until I can read P.V. Mathew’s work myself and see what his evidence is.

I think many of the arguments of Mr Easo have no basis. It is full of myths and imaginations. See his arguments.

1 He claims that St James liturgy was brought to Kerala by Babylonian immigrants in AD340 and ever since, Nasranis were using St James’ liturgy!! He is not quoting any evidences.

2 Historical evidences prove that Mar Sabour and Mar Afroath were Jacobites!! No mention of any evidences.

3 Due to the emphasis given by Mani to ‘Light as a life giving force’, he is popularly known as Subra (light) Mani.-

He is mixing things. “Subra mani” is a Hindu deity. The finding of the same spelling mani does not prove that this is the Persian Mani. The pronunciation of n in subra mani and mani of Manichaeism are different. Anything with spelling mani is not Manichaeism. The Syriac Christian name Mani was also compared with Manichaeism by someone earlier! The Syriac Christian name Mani is Emmanuel.

4 He is talking about ‘The lost years of Jesus’, by Elizabeth Clare Prophet, (first printed in 1987). We all know about the authenticity of these kinds of books. There are plenty of books out there describing Jesus married to Magdalene etc.

5 He is connecting peacock with Manichaeism. Peacock is strongly associated with Hindu mythology. What are the evidences that link peacock with Manichaeism? I have visited many so called Manichaean websites and I have not come across with any lotuses or peacocks etc with them.

6 Mr. Easo is talking a lot about St Thomas’ Cross as Manichaean cross.
Have Manicheans ever used a cross for worship or veneration? The neo Manichaean researchers are linking the presence of Nestorian crosses and other Christian artefacts in china as an argument that if Persian Christianity can come to china, Manicheans also could have reached there.

I had contacted a few European neo Manicheans a while ago regarding use of cross and one of them replied, why would Manicheans use a cross?

The statues excavated in China etc connecting it to Mani looks like Buddha. I think these are imaginations of some researchers. One of the statues excavated shows Mani sitting in the posture of Buddha on lotus flower. We have never seen lotus as a symbol from Persia. It is a symbol of India and Buddhism. I think that statue is Buddha and people are stretching their imaginations to show that it is Mani. The sitting posture is the same as we see the statues of Buddha everywhere.

Many of Easo’s arguments are seen in M M Ninan’s book. Ninan says that “Mani brought the Manichaean cross to Kerala, abandoned during sixth century and resurfaced as Mar Thoma Cross”. He has bravely put a reference also for this. Indian Express, Friday April 24, 1998. It is only a news report about the unholy war that held in SMC against full restoration of East Syriac liturgy. It was an argument of the latinisation faction which was just reported in the newspaper Indian express. !! http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19980424/11450224.html
This reference itself proves the quality of that book. See how damaging these kind of dirty political tricks done by various factions of our churches to the real history. Now, people might quote Ninan in other books and papers.

I do not know the authenticity of Whitehouse etc about Manichaeism in Kerala. ? The places where St Thomas crosses excavated like Kottayam. Muttuchira, Kothanalloor etc are not in the list of Manichean villages as described by Whitehouse. They are not strongholds of Knanaya Christians also.

7 “Mar Ivanios was the most qualified among all the bishops in the Orthodox Church. He corresponded with the Pope of Rome and made attempts without the knowledge of the Church authorities to bring the entire people of Bethany Ashram (Bishops, Priests, nuns and common people), under the Pope”.

How twisting his stories are? As far as I understand, the Synod of the IOC deputed Mar Ivanios to talk to Roman Church but by the time Mar Ivanios made arrangements for communion, the IOC got some favourable court order and the church leadership withdrew from the plans and Mar Ivanios decided to stick on to his dialogue and deal with the Roman church. If someone has any other info re this please share.

8 “When Bishop David and others first arrived in Malankara they had installed a cross which is now in Alangadu Church. This is the only cross where the word, “Suraya”, is recorded. The Pahlavi inscription on the cross is similar to the one existing during 293 to 302, when Narassahi Shah ruled Persia”.

Here, he is authenticating the Pahlavi language and cross. He also authenticates the Persian cross at Kadamattom where as he is accusing Mylappore cross as Manichaean even though they are similar. No consistency or logic.

9 All his references are recent articles.

Overall, my first impression about Mr Easo’s article is that it fails to provide sufficient trustworthy evidences at all. Basic features are anti Catholicism, pro Jacobite, anti knanaya, inconsistency and no logic.

Dear M.T. Antony,

Yes, I agree that the majority of what Ninan writes seems to be useless and wrong (e.g., the Jacobites being in Kerala from the 4th century), and I do agree that the anti-Oriental “Latin” faction of the Syro-Malabar have their own vested interests. And it goes without saying that I view Ninan as borderline retarded. I’ve not seen P.V. Mathew, but if Easo considers him as a venerable source, that can hardly be a ringing endorsement!

But, then again, there is Whitehouse, Burnell and Logan. The former may have been a rabid anti-Catholic, but he also seemed to want to support the St. Thomas story. So I doubt he has a vested interest in advancing Manichaeanism. Burnell seems to have been an honest archeologist (i.e., he believed in a possible Manichaean past for our people, but at the same time did not distort his reading of the Persian cross). And Logan just reported matters as he heard them; I don’t see any reason for him to advance the Manichaean angle either.

There’s a lot of mystery in our prehistory, not to mention the scant if not non-existant references to a body of Christians in Kerala by other Indian sources. Add to that the presence of Buddhism and Persian communities (Nestorian, or other), and general Indian philosophical open-mindedness. I don’t think we can definitively rule out Manichaeanism.

I came across this site quite accidentally a few days back. There is a lot of information both as comments and articles. I do have a few open questions after reading the comments and wikipedia on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeanism.

In 291, persecution arose in the Persian empire with the murder of the apostle Sisin by Bahram II, and the slaughter of many Manichaeans.

In AD 296, Diocletian decreed against the Manichaeans: “We order that their organizers and leaders be subject to the final penalties and condemned to the fire with their abominable scriptures”, resulting in martyrdoms in Egypt and North Africa (see Diocletian Persecution).

By AD 354, Hilary of Poitiers wrote that the Manichaean faith was a significant force in southern France.

In AD 381 Christians requested Theodosius I to strip Manichaeans of their civil rights. He issued a decree of death for Manichaean monks in AD 382

Manichaeans had an intermittent existence in the west (Mesopotamia, Africa, Spain, France, North Italy, the Balkans) for thousand years.

CONSIDERING THE METHODOLOGY USED TO CALL ST.THOMAS CHRISTIANS, CAN WE CALL WESTERN CHRISTIANITY MANICHIEAN ?

Thank you T. Antony and J. Mathew.

Easo and Ninan should put a caveat that there is neither logic nor any evidence and these conclusions are based on their premonition and intuitive powers..

RE: Manichaeanism

It’s also worth reading “On Some Pahlavī Inscriptions in South India” by Arthur Coke Burnell (on Google. Books, of course!). Burnell is quite critical of Indian civilization itself (e.g., Indian math, geometry, architecture, etc., were all borrowed from the Greeks and/or Persians), and critical of the Syrian Christians (e.g. ignorance and superstition, etc.), but he’s definitely a scholar and can back up what he says with copious references and reasoning. It’s worth reading just to read the footnotes and to learn of his references.

Just for kicks you should read page 3 for his scathing review of Claudius Buchanan (“His simplicity was boundless.”).

Dear Mr.Thomas Antony,
You only are twisting stories. No one can imagine that IOC planned to join catholic church. Especially vattasseril mar dionysius who was ruling at that time. There is another story behind.
Mar Ivanios desired to be a catholicos. He was senior and qualified enough academically. After the funeral of HH Geevarghese I, Ivanios pointed to Mar Dionysius about the election of next catholicos. But dionysius wanted the more junior Geevarghese mar Gregorios to be the next catholicos. So he pretended to be deaf. Then Ivanios came to know that his dream will not come true.That was the reason for him to convert to the Roman church. He tried his maximum to pull others also to the rite.After dionysius passed away, the disciples of ivanios started claiming that IOC deputed ivanios to make ties with rome.
Also there is a fact that ivanios wanted to confess on his mistake at his death. He did not allow any rite priest to do the kumbassaram. He asked to bring a bethany orthodox priest. No one knows what he had confessed to that priest.

Dear Abraham,

If I were wrong, I am sorry. This is what I have read somewhere. That was why I wrote- “….As far as I understand, the Synod of the IOC deputed Mar Ivanios to talk to Roman Church but by the time Mar Ivanios made arrangements for communion, the IOC got some favourable ………If someone has any other info re this please share.”
See, I have not confirmed what I said and invited more information from people like you who know better.

You are also admitting that there was a story like what I said-see your own posting-”….After dionysius passed away, the disciples of ivanios started claiming that IOC deputed ivanios to make ties with rome…..”

So, don’t blame me for that story.
If I was twisting the stories, I would not have asked others to come forward with more information.

Let us see whether someone else come with something new about this.

Dear M.T. Antony & Abraham:

I’ve read the same thing as what Antony reported; however, as it was by a Syro-Malankara author (who have their own bias, like all of our groups) I didn’t give it much credence. But I also don’t give much credence to the Orthodox stories either (bias, etc.).

Does anyone have conclusive evidence on this (irrelevant) matter? Was there a Synod, and was the non-Patriarchal Orthodox faction looking to enter into a relationship with another Church? I’ve also read (I think by a Syro-Malankara author) that the non-Patriarchal Orthodox faction was looking to the Russian Orthodox, but I can’t see that as likely (although it would add an interesting third jump into the Puthenkoor’s history: Nestorian -> Chaldean -> Jacobite -> Melkite!).

At any rate, the Syro-Malankara did quite well after leaving the Orthodox mess. Apart from one brief lawsuit (since Mar Ivanios seems to have tried to taken Church property with him; they lost the lawsuit of course), they’ve had peace, and autonomy (although not Patriarchal status, of course). And have thrived, with an Ashram that produced some very high-quality English translations of the Western Syriac Rite and it’s prayers. (While us Orthodox have to deal with incompetently-done partial English translations of *some* prayers, not to mention that wasteful court case that is essentially over a big fairy tale).

Anyways … evidence anyone?

J. Mathew, Always there are multiple reports about the same event. Any conclusive evidences in this ? Why did Syro Malankara preferred to have a separate structure. ( than joining Syro Malabar ) ?

Thanks to Thomas Antony and John Mathew for information. Is “Sugantha nadu Nasrani History” a book ? If there are some leads, I can find out what is written in this ?

Another question, can some one suggest a good scholarly book on Manichaeism ?

Dear Jacob George:

In response to your question: “Why did Syro Malankara preferred to have a separate structure. ( than joining Syro Malabar )?” you would have to ask Mar Ivanios this. Note: I believe the Knanaya members of his flock, ended up joining the Syro-Malabar. Of course, the Knanaya seem to have always been a confused group of people …

My cynical answer is that many Church schisms in Malankara were due to politics and the desire for power, title, and perhaps access to Church funds. Joining the Syro-Malabar probably wouldn’t have gotten Mar Ivanios either of the latter. He would be just another bishop in that Church—and that, from a different rite.

But perhaps Mar Ivanios felt that the Malankara Church was not developing sufficiently under the Patriarch of Antioch, and sought a different spiritual head. He wanted to keep his rite, but be under a more stable Patriarch.

Or perhaps he wanted to rejoin Rome, like his Chaldean ancestors (but to the dismay of his earlier non-Ephesan Church of the East ones!), but wanted to keep the West Syriac rite that he and his more recent ancestors had been using?

Who really knows anymore?

The funny thing … if we can’t even get stories from the last century right, how can we hope to get stories from 500 years ago straight. Not to mention 1000 years ago. And 1950 years ago seems downright impossible.

Dear John Mathew

Yes. If we cant get stories from the last century right, how can we hope to get stories from 500 years ago straight !!

Keeping the West Syriac identity can be the reason. That would have been done by being in Syro Malabar Church also. May be some one can explain if it was the decision of Mar Ivanious or others in Catholic Church.

Dear Jacob George:

You wrote: “Keeping the West Syriac identity can be the reason. That would have been done by being in Syro Malabar Church also.”

I doubt it — the latter is an East Syriac Church.

RE: Syriac Tradition

Here’s a good article, by the master (Brock) himself.

The Syriac Tradition by Sebastian Brock

The Syro Malankara decided to remain as a separate rite because SMC is East Syriac rite. They wanted to keep the West syriac rite.

Mar Ivanios was a Metropolitan in the IOC when he joined Catholic communion. He did not achieve anything more by joining the Catholic communion. So, I do not think it was for gaining anything.

I think the version of Syro Malankara is more logical.

The important thing we need to know is- was IOC in a difficult situation at that period due to the apparent split between Pro and anti patriarchate groups needing for a stable international allegiance?

If the story was as Abraham suggested, Mar Ivanios should have opted for a choice where he can get a better position. As everybody agrees, he was the most qualified Bishop at that point, he could have got a better position from the Patriarchate wing rather than RC?

I think the people who know this issue, should respond with available evidences. If IOC version was correct, why IOC website is silent about this issue?

Dear M. T. Anthony:

Although I strongly disagree with Abraham’s angry statements, I also think it’s quite naive to say that Mar Ivanios did not gain anything by joining the Catholic Church. By joining, the leader of the S-Malankara became a Major Archbishop, rather than a mere Metropolitan. That is a significant upgrade. That era was a golden era of the Indian Orthodox Church—the Church abounded with plenty of highly qualified scholars, who were taught directly by the old masters of the West Syriac tradition in Malankara: Konat Malpan, his descendents, Mar Gregorios and his descendants. Mar Ivanios would have been just another competent Metropolitan in a sea of competent Metropolitans. By splitting, he gained significantly. I’m not claiming that this is the *truth* — I’m merely claiming that one shouldn’t be blind to the politics that have been a key part of our people for at least 500 years.

I have little faith that many of the schisms of the Malankara Church were ever done on principle. The first schism, between the Pazhayakoor and Puthenkoor, one can understand as a desire to retain (1) rite or (2) independence. But the schisms of the Mar Thomites, the Malabar Independent Syrian Church and the Syro-Malankara all had quite a bit of politics involved — none were purely done due to principle, and all of those resulted in a power boost for the perpetrators. And all, except for the MISC, resulted in an attempt by the schismatics to grab property and cash reserves (the IOC/Jacobites honed their legal teeth during their lawsuits against the Mar Thomites and the Syro-Malankara).

The onus is on those who claim that the Orthodox Church was looking to enter into foreign communion at a Parumala Synod: is there proof? I’d like to see it because I can not see this as likely, since the Orthodox Church (the IOC, rather) has always been (1) fastidiously Oriental Orthodox and (2) extremely keen on maintaining the independence of the Malankara Metropolitanate.

But who really cares … this is all 20th century trivia. Let’s go for the pre-15th century gold…

As well, I must say that Abraham’s pov is not that of the IOC; it is his personal opinion. I don’t think the IOC or the Jacobites care about the minor schism of the SyroMalankara, and certainly none have much to say on the topic. The only main problem was the significant amounts of property and money that the Syro-Malankara tried to take with them — which were all properly returned to the Orthodox after a lawsuit.

John,

I do not know much deatils, but Mar Ivanios became just a Metropolitan only. At that time point, no one even in the Syro Malabar would have thought about independence or Major Arch Bishopric position.

The theme of independence and Sui irus status came in Syro Malabar Church only during the period of Cardinal Tisserant when he was the Prefect for the Congregation for Oriental churches (1940-59). Fr Placid Podipara was his secretary when he was an apostolic visitor in SMC.

In a memorandum submitted by Fr Podipara, he requested Cardinal Tisserant about an ecclesiastical head to SMC- Door of All India- thar’aa d’kolah hendo -when there were two metropolitans in SMC- (Changanacherry and Ernakulam). At that point, SMC was like a few dioceses following East Syriac liturgy. It was these efforts and Tisserant’s support that made the Vatican to elevate the SMC as a Major Archi Episcopal Church in 1992.

Syro Malankara was elevated to Major Archi Episcopal status only in 2005.

So, Mar Ivanios was not made a Major Arch Bishop or Catholicose, he even might not have dreamed about that status. By joining the communion with Catholic Church, I think, Mar Ivanios was reduced to a mere Metropolitan of one of the Eastern Rites in the catholic Chuch. This is what made me think that Syro Malankara version may be correct. In the Wikipedia article about Syro Malankara church, they are citing the date of the synod also-

“On 1 November 1926, the Episcopal Synod held at Parumala near Tiruvalla, Kerala, decided to open negotiations again with Rome for communion with the Catholic Church in order to establish peace in Malankara. The Synod authorised Mar Ivanios, the then Bishop of Bethany, to make necessary correspondence with Rome regarding communion. He earnestly followed up the mandate of the Synod.

The Second Catholicos expired on 17 December 1928. Moran Mor Baselios Geevarghese I succeeded the late Catholicos. On the day following his installation, he consecrated Mar Theophilos of Bethany and Mar Gregorios of Pampady as Bishops. In the meantime, the civil court’s decision on the litigation for Vattipanam was declared in favour of the Malankara Orthodox Church. This was a civil legal backing up for the Church and the Bishops of the Malankara Orthodox Church stepped out from the endeavours of communion with Rome. But Mar Ivanios stood firmly for the efforts of regaining communion with the Catholic Church”

Let someone who has access to IOC history and details of the synods etc comment whether this claim is correct or not.

Dear Luke,

“Sugantha nadu nasrani history” seems to be a book published from Cochin in 1984. I do not know more about it. I think PV Mathew has written a few more books and one of them is “Acta Indica” about which some has commented in another website-Sharbtho- that it is fictionally inclined. Acta Indica also talks about manichaeism.

The propagators of manichaen theory are some Priests based in Ernaculam. If you are somewhere in Ekm, you can contact one of those in the Arch Diocese of Ernaculam who may be able to give you more information.

It would be great if you could gather more information and share with us.

I have read “Sugantha nadu nasrani charithram” as a kid. To call it history you’ll have to be on some dodgy skunk from Idukki. P V mathew was smoking while he was writing it. It is a book of about 600-700 pages you have to read to believe the audacity to pass it of as a well researched nasrani history.

From what I can remember it starts from the beginning of history itself …when Adam and his people called sons of God (?) were flying around in the sky, snatching and raping some lesser beings who were earth bound. By the way these sons of God were giants and lived for at least 800 years. But before your BS meter goes of the scale PVM gives a few scientific explanations for this curious phenomenon of flying giants that includes the existence of a planet between Mars and Jupiter which reduced the gravitational pull on earth resulting in gigantism and flight…..These claims are all backed up by copious reference material and footnotes including Ramayana where Ravana was also a flying giant. According to him this also explains the lost world of Atlantis, pyramids, the huge walls found in Bermuda triangle(???) and many more unsolved mysteries.

To say he is obsessed with Manichaeism is an understatement. This is were his original research reaches new heights. Using his unmatchable historical inference skills he comes to the conclusion that Al biruni, Aryabhatta, the author of manimekalai, the author of Acts of Thomas and a few other note worthies are one and the same person …….Mani. He also goes to considerable lengths to portray this multi talented renaissance man with multiple personalities as a pathalogical liar, theif and a con artist.

Guaranteed mind blowing hilarity from start to finish.

Thank you very much Mappilla,

Your review of the book is very interesting. Many people have published books citing this PVM book. Now we can understand the historical value of those books- Easo , Ninan etc.

BTW, anyone know who is this PVM ? his backgrounds etc ? On reading Mappilla’s comments, it is interesting to know more about him.

Can we able to see a unified syrian catholic church and a unified orthodox church in Malankara in this century . pray to god to avoid more splits . Its not only the prelates butalso the laity responsible for this splits . Ego clash between various families / groups is a main cause for splits in the church .

Personally, I see the disunity as a good thing … it gives us more options.

For example, I’m Orthodox, but I’m dismayed to no end by the infection of crypto-protestants (laymen, priests and even bishops) in my Church (both Syriac and Malankara Orthodox). And due to this I have to put up with people who agitate for choirs, prayer meetings, useless Sunday schools, etc.

The existence of other Syriac Churches (Catholic, or Orthodox; East or West; Indian or Middle Eastern — I don’t care) gives me the option to bypass my own, when my own becomes too saturated with heterodox idiots.

So … Malankara, please let’s have some more schisms. One that I’m waiting for is an ultra-Oriental schism… I don’t care if it’s Catholic, Orthodox or “Nestorian”.

Dear Admn.

there has not been any historical evidence to the Namboothiri origin of Syrian Christians, it is rather a myth, believed to be propagated by potuguese during there short stint as colonosers of malabar coast. there objective was to attract high cast hindus to roman church as the Syrian christians were considred as lower cast by cast hindus. subsequently syrian churches has adapted these propaganda theme as their history, as a tool to attain certain social mobility.

According to the recent findings, on the basis of excavations and other scientific methodes by renowned kerala historians, the namboothiry brahmins or malayala brahmins as a communitty appeared /evolved? reached, in the malabar coast during the period between AD800 to 900. this clearly shows the ahistorisity of the conversion of nambothiris in AD 52 by St. Thomas

The Historisity of St Thomas has been another issue of contention,.till now the papal council in Rome has not aprooved this version. another aspect, which has to be noticed is tha it is Col. Munro, who insisted Travencoore kings to treat syrian christians, the hitherto considered to belower cast , as equal to middle cast touchble hindus (like nairs ).

Dear Kishore

A good number of authors on early history of Saint Thomas Christianity took it for granted that the Apostle converted high caste Brahmins into Christianity during first century. These were mainly based on the arguments from traditions. In our time, with the help of epigraphy, literary sources and excavations conducted in different places in kerala modern historians like Prof. Elamkulam came in to the conclusion that “ the ancestors of the present day Nambudiris established their temple centered gramas in the span of 8th -9th century in Kerala. Many of the temples in Kerala were constructed only by 9th-10th centuries of Christian era “.

These findings about Nambudiris and organized Hindusim as we see today established in Kerala in 9th-10th century are debatable to some extent. The Nasrani origin from Nambudiris / Jews is a subject which needs serious research. These varied viewpoints are debated in many forums.

Your comment “believed to be propagated by potuguese during there short stint as colonosers of malabar coast. there objective was to attract high cast hindus to roman church as the Syrian christians were considred as lower cast by cast hindus. subsequently syrian churches has adapted these propaganda theme as their history, as a tool to attain certain social mobility.” is simply a propaganda material with out any historical backing.

The Portuguese conquest, their interactions with the community, and the social status of the community etc are documented to some extent. I request you to read the Acts of Synod of Diamper convened on June 1599, which is a good source .You can also get some information about the Plates and Privileges community had before the arrival of Portuguese. In the Sixteenth Century the Raja of Paravur tried to give similar privilages to the Nairs of his state but the Christians rose in armed revolt and forced him to change his mind. In 20th century begining one Latin Christian of Karunagappalli was prosecuted for daring to use silk umbrellas in a wedding procession and for spreading cloths on the path. ( Kerala Society Papers ( 1931), Series -8 )

For a deeper understanding, see the Syond of Diamper proceedings – Decree II, Decree XIII etc which prohibits the Superstition that those who touch even Nairs, should wash themselves. In the background of social situation that existed in Kerala till last century, do we need to talk more about the argument that social status of the community was propagated by Portuguese for evangelization ? There are other decrees/ recorded history which clearly shows the social status of the community. Of course, you can find some more information in different comments and articles.

In fact, according to some, this esteemed social status was one reason which prevented the evangelization in Kerala. Moreover it is an outstanding fact (though not widely acknowledged) that Christian faith is the oldest in Kerala. The social situation and the hurdles created by local kings would have made large conversion to Chrisianity nearly impossible.

As you can see from the decrees of the Syond of Diamper, the Christians here did not follow the Law of Nambudiris or Law of Jews. They abided by the Law of St. Thomas.

The historicity of Saint Thomas and how Rome see this are already discussed in few comments in this same article.

Dear M Thomas Antony

PV Mathew has published five books in Malayalam. These are, Mar Thoma Anthem in 1974, Mar Thoma and Mani in 1977, Sugantha Nadu Nasrani history in 1984, Chera History in 1989 and Nasranis of Kerala in 1991. The theme of all these books is based on Manichaeism. The content as heard is similar to what is mentioned by Mappila. I have not read any of these.

It is a shame that controversies were triggered by these kinds of works, which are imaginative to a greater extent. Taking inspiration from these P V Mathew series, one PK Mathew published an article in the Catholic periodical Assisi, saying that Saint Thomas Cross was Manichaean. This was the starting point of Controversy. P K Mathew, in fact twisted, Dr. Burnell’s translation to make it suit to his theories. I don’t know why this article came in Assisi or was there something else behind all these ?

Since then many articles and leaflets came in Catholic periodicals (Shalom Times , Vachana dhara etc) as well as secular newspapers by laymen, priests of Liturgy Action Committee ( association of Ernakulam priests) about Manichiinsim with varied arguments which are absurd. Then we had scholars taking these up and disproving all of these arguments on by one. There was an essay by Kariyilakkulam that P K Mathew purposefully twisted the translations of A C Burnell and published it in Assisi to create the controversy.

Dear Admin & Namboothir/Jewish syrian christians,

I simply dont understand what you are upto.I wonder whether, trying to connect your geneology to namboothiry or jews , makes you something better than other ‘lesser human beings’. As far as my understanding about christian faith, also about other 2 semitic faiths,concerned, God createed Adam (men) and Eve (woman) he didnt make any lesser or superiour beings in the begining. and thats the beauty and the power of semitic theology…
I wish you would have a minimum commonsense to understand that the concept of brahmin is a part of hindu theology /mythology about the creation of humankind, accordind to that god made some people superour to others. Its a scientifically proven fact that a man’s appearence, built ,colour , food habits, and even the thought process has been, to a great extent, shaped by the geography and enviourment, occupation and other surroundings…and these factors shape up the particular culture/practices of communities. Brahmins are not a racial group its merely a cultural entity, tell me whats in common with the kashmiri brahmins and kerala brahmins, appearnce wise nothing, food habits kashmiri brahmins are non vegetarians like bengali brahms and oriya brahms kearal brams are veggies . Apperence vise kasmiri brahms are more like any other live in that geographical area . and keral brahins more like any other people in kerala you can dark skinned and fair skinned brahms anywhere they have no commom features in fact most of the punjabi non brahmni hindu communities ,jats ( an OBC community) of noth India are more fit into the anthropometrical descripition of Indo aryan people than any other …

in the case of jews. they never claim that they are created as superiour to others, they believe its due to the their forefather Abraham , who obeyed the God , they are blessed by God. If you claim youe self as brahmin then you dont have any right to be a christian, coz God created Adam then Eve …. he never created any untouchable, It s man who created inferiors so that there can be some superiours……………
By the way I myself born into a namboothiry family .I frequently argue with & ridicule many of my stupid elder who still think (even in this era when humans thinking of settling in other planets) that they are created from the Head god…. and seeing your exitment and enthusiasm to establis brahmin origin , I pity you……………..

Hi Kishore,
Its very noteworthy that u believe in the concepts of equality and the power of free will.Nobody denies these.The only need and reason to delve into geneology and like is to find out about the origins of Kerala
Christians.Its very essential to do this “now” because there is an oft quoted phrase “Christianity is a foreign religion”.By understanding our identity further ,we are actually able to negate such prejudices
because whether you like it or not this community is the main link Christian communities in the year
1 AD .If I dont find and fight for my identity nobody will.I definitely dont want anyone from this community to be referred to as Christian converts from low castes(Ive seen that a lot from rabid Hindu sites).
Everywhere u go people think that people convert to Christianity only for 2 reasons
1) To escape from the caste system
2) By force
Well wake up India ,the Nasranis havent become Christians because of those two reasons.Solving the
Nasrani puzzle can uncover probably other crypto Christian communities in India.Hence its very essential now more than ever to understand our identity .

Anoop,
nothing would satisfy those hindu extremists , and you should know their intentions are entirely different. even if you produce ample evidences thye would be still spitting the venom against minorities. Instead we should challenge them asking “who the hell are you to ask me” nobody is here at anybodys mercy.
then you need to go for some basic readings on cast , I like to repeat it again that, cast in not race. cast is more a cultural entity. please read R. S sharma or DD kosamby, fro getting a general idea about how cast groups has proliferated in the early medival India. Brahmns settled in godavay basin aroung 6 century AD are suppose to be the first indo aryan settler in the south india. then they migrated to coastal karnatak and northen part of kerala in the following centuries. it is believed by historians that, they converted many drvidians into brahmin fold…
by the way what you mean by lower cast ? are you still following hinduism????????

Dear Anoop and Kishore:

I think you both make interesting points. However, I have a few comments:

1. Some people look into their ancestry to give themselves a “boost” (e.g., if one person has no achievements of his own, he may attempt to “justify” his worth by claiming his “ancestors” were great). While others look into their ancestry in order to understand their past. I’m sure there are both classes of people over here at NSC. Kishore seems to paint all of us as being in the former class — this is not true. I think many of us are bonafide Christians without any casteism, and are just researching these matters so we can better understand how our ancestors lived.

2. Anoop: how does one “fight” for his identity? I don’t understand this statement. If some fascists claim that you are a convert, who cares? In the final analysis, it is true that at least two of your ancestors must have converted to Christianity. Now, whether that ancestor was a “caste” Hindu, a Jew, an Assyrian, a Persian … may be a different thing — but all must have been converts. And who cares? If your ancestor was a dalit convert or a Jew convert, does it make any difference under the principles of Christianity? As Kishore commented, *no* it doesn’t. Christianity doesn’t weigh converts based on their original class; at least, Gentile Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Church of the East) doesn’t. And who knows why they converted? You don’t know for a fact why our Indian ancestors converted to Christianity. Was it because they married an Assyrian/Persian/Arab foreigner? Was it because they liked the teachings? Was it because they wanted to escape the cruelty of the caste system? Who knows. And who cares. If you want to fight for something, it should be *against* those who imply that the soil of India is restricted to only one caste or religion. As opposed to the cowardly path of saying “Well, our ancestors were Brahmins/caste Hindus so we’re exempt from your tyranny against foreign religions”.

3. 1 AD, eh? Please. The earliest we can attest the presence of Christianity in Kerala is the 4th century (Cosmas Indicopleatus). Better yet is the 7th century from where we have our beloved Pahlavi Crosses. Or even better is the 10th century from where we have graves (Manarcad). Even better is the 14th century from where we have actual Churches that we can visit today, and manuscripts that we can read. The 1 AD, 52 AD, etc., is nothing more than fiction (at least until we get better evidence).

Dear John,
I didn’t mean all but a majority of the people around here are aggressively claiming as brahmin converts. Those who are still searching for identity , instead of trying to connect their geology to brahmins, they should try connect it to Germanic race or something more than these indo Aryan nomads, and much above in the racial superior theory ladder, why not go for the best!
Syrian Christians are one of the well established, and hard working community , excelling in every spheres of life, which has contributed a lot to the kerala society. they are the torch bearers of malayalm/keralam all around the globe. they should be proud of their identity, as Syrian Christians, instead of wasting time digging past and come up with ridiculous theories that makes them laughing stocks in front of others.

Yeah John ,
I agree.The only intention was to get rid of some of the stereotypes regarding being a Christian.Most of the times when people get to know Im a Christian ,the first question that comes to their mind is why did I convert.Its not that it matters too much but the airs I get from these guys,its bloody irritating.I wonder how the low castes survive in India.Ive gone to parts of Delhi where only Muslims live and parts where only
Hindus live.The attitude in some parts of the North is like,Muslims only breed ignorance and dirt .Muslims where in majority speak the same of their Hindu brethren.In Kerala,I personally know of some Christian families who are not accepted into Marthoma and Orthodox churches because their ancestors are Pullayans.
And regarding “fighting” for my identity,I just mean standing up for my beliefs.Cause ultimately,its my beliefs and ideologies that define who I am.If I dont do that,some else will define me.
As for Year 1 Ad ,Ok the idea could be far fetched for a multiple of reasons beginning with Jesus was crucified in Ad 7 as per some historians(The concept of AD timeline falters under such revelations).
Basically the intention was just to say that,Ive been here a long time I am as local as anyone on these lands.

Dear Mr. Kishore,

Posting after a really long time on NJC though was reading posts.

Origins of Kerala Nasranis represents a “mosaic/colage” no doubt, as represented by history (real one, not stories). And since we are one community, intermarrying; irrespective of those “genealogical origins” none of us can claim a so-called “pure single descent”. Of course no sensible human being can claim that because a pure descent or race as such never exists ! Its in minds like Hitler’s !

But what we are interested here is to go back into the true identity of our community roots dusting off the stories and seeing how our ancestors might have possibly lived ! By all means I believe they were far better and more faithful Christians than, us though negatives would be there ! They have suffered persecutions more than us today and have still passed on the faith and traditions. This is exactly why we honour them and want to know more of them…. What drove them to this great faith and zeal !

So its a journey (sincere for some, fooling around for others) into the “way of life” which is by means of history, genealogy genetics and archaeology besides others. These are called “modes” of researching which are not ends in themselves and therefore must lead to something useful and positive.

You can clearly see around who are stuck to the means and who are looking forward towards the larger picture.

It is ultimately a quest to simplify ourselves, that what had been complicated by confused and prejudiced minds. It has to do with humbling ourselves to a more truer Nasrani identity than talking superiority tongue which is not the gist of all the research and digging.

And at the end of the day every child loves to know and remember always, who his or her parents are because we look up to them as role models, as guides, as the source of our very existence. So is the case with our distant parents (ancestors), without whom you and I would not have been existing at all to discuss all this !

Let’s not mix religion and emotional sentiments into analytical studies and research. Both are best kept separate until its best judged to be good to merge them. Christianity is not a rigid defined religion of do’s and dont’s, neither is learning of one’s origins and ancestors unchristian, provided the intentions are good. So let’s be more responsible and real-world Christians than just book-defined ones.

Shalom, Shlama !

Dear Anoop,

I dont find any reason why we should go around convincing the critics and assaulters if we know our faith and our national sentiments well.

We are far better Indians than these destructive extremists. We dont have to prove to them anything.

Remember, to a believer no proof is needed and to the one who does not no proof is sufficient. So we dont have go on adopting and projecting unwanted customs and change beliefs just to prove our point to them !

For this we first need to be strongly rooted in our own faith and traditions. Then no one else will ever be able to question us !

Dear Kishore,
I am a Syrian catholic. Not jewish or Brahmin, but an Indian. You need not portray, your community- Brahmin Namboothirys, in low light. That would be sterio-typing. There are good people in all communities. It was not they who claim superiority, but it was the rest who crowned them so. This complex could not get immunity to Christianity in Kerala, either, as you read the contributions here.

Dear Josh,
I never intend to paint any person in low light but the politics of a community .I criticised the believes they follow the practices they had been and still following
I partially agree with your opinion-” it was the rest who crowned them so”, then Why the ‘rest ‘ are not crowning other communities? Why they are attributing this superiourity tag to brahmns alone?
the answer would be either brahmins are born superior; which doesnt stand any scientific or logical test or its brahmns themselves manipulated so. By reading indian histoy we have every reason to believe the later point. brahmins make use of their advantage of a controll over the language (sanskrit) and very successfully inculcate this to the unconsious mind of others..

..

Hi Brothers/Sisters in the Messiah,

It is true that majority of Nazranis are jewish in origin but this does not matter much. What matters the most is where you have accepted the Messiah. The Messiah is the Way, the truth and the Light; no one goes to the Father except through Him. The best thing that can be done is to obey the commandents the the Messiah has quoted from the Old Testment, to love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul , with all your mind and with all your strength (Deut 6:5) &love your neighbor as yourself (Lev 19:18 ).

Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

Check this youtube video, ( from the video details)

The Syrian Christians of Kerala ( Nasrani ) have very old traditions for their marriage having many rituals taken from the ancient Hindu tradition. The symbolic tying of the Chain (called Thali for Hindus and Minnu’ for Syrian Christians) around the brides neck with a silk thread (Mala) by the groom as last part of the service in church is such an act. The thread is made using 7 separate silk threads taken from the Mantra Kodi, the gold thread bordered Pudava or silk Sari. (Giving Pudava to the bride by groom also is taken from Kerala Hindu tradition). This work of making thread is done on previous night of wedding day. The brother- in- law of groom has the right to take out each of the 7 silk threads from the sari. These are twisted and stuck together by the aunts and the whole family will be chatting, laughing telling old stories!

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IamkWWVL1XA

,:’ that seems to be a great topic, i really love it .*~

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Saint_Thomas_Christians

This article deals with Saint Thomas Christians and the various churches and denominations that form the Nasrani people

The Nasrani Menorah or Syrian Cross also known as the Mar Thoma cross
The Saint Thomas Christians are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. [1][2][3][4] The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by Saint Thomas the Apostle. The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship and holding their ritual service on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath. They also believed that the Romans killed Jesus [5][6][7]. The Saint Thomas Christians of Kerala succeeded in blending well with the ecclesiastical world of the Eastern Churches and with the changing socio-cultural environment of their homeland.[8][9][10][11], becoming Hindu in culture, Christian in religion, and Judeo-Syro-Oriental in worship.[8] The Portuguese started a Latin diocese in Goa (1534) and another at Cochin (1558), in the hope of bringing the Saint Thomas Christians under their jurisdiction. The Portuguese Catholics, who were especially opposed to the Judaic traditions of the Nasrani, held a synod in 1599, at which they ordered the burning of Nazrani texts and imposed Latinization on the Saint Thomas Christians. The Portuguese padroado was extended over them, and from 1599 until 1896, they were under Latin bishops. Divisions within the Saint Thomas Christians arose between those who accepted the Latinization and those who chose to adhere to the Syriac church.

Christian Jewish tradition

An old church in Kerala
These early Christian Jews believed in Jesus as the Christ, but followed Jewish traditions and called themselves Nazaraeans or Nazrani, meaning Jews who followed the Nazarene Messiah (Jesus). The term Nazaraean was first mentioned in the New Testament in Acts 24:5. The term nasrani was used essentially to denote Jewish followers of Jesus from Nazareth, while the term Khristianos “Christian” was initially used largely to refer to non-Jewish peoples (“gentiles”) who followed the Christ (Acts 11:26).[29] Until the advent of the Portuguese in the 1500s, the proto-Jewish-Nasrani ethos in Kerala thrived with Jewish customs and the Syrian-Antiochian tradition.[29]
The Nasrani preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship. Their ritual services (liturgy) was and still is called the Qurbana (also spelled Kurbana), which is derived from the Hebrew Korban (קרבן), meaning “Sacrifice.” Their ritual service was held on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath. The Nasrani Qurbana was sung in the Suryani (Syriac) and Aramaic languages. They also believed that it was the Romans who killed Jesus [5] because, historically, Jesus was crucified; the official form of execution of the Jews was typically stoning to death, while the official form of execution of the Romans was crucifixion. [5] The architecture of the early church reflected a blend of Jewish and Kerala styles.[5]

Colonialism and Saint Thomas Christians

The Portuguese started a Latin diocese in Goa (1534) and another at Cochin (1558), in the hope of bringing the Saint Thomas Christians under their jurisdiction. The Portuguese Catholics were especially opposed to the Judaic traditions of the Nasrani Christians, describing them as Sabbath-keeping Judaizers.[31] In 1599, Archbishop Aleixo de Menezes of Goa convened the Synod of Diamper in Kerala.[32] There he ordered all the texts of the Syrian Nasranis, including the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Thomas, and the Nasrani Aramaic Peshitta Bible (known today as the Lost Aramaic Bible, based on the Jewish Targum and including the Gospel of the Nazoraeans), [33][34] in order to erase all legacies of antiquity and Jewishness.[31] Amongst several accusations, the Nasranis were accused of not worshipping images of saints and biblical figures.[31] The Portuguese imposed the teaching that the Jews killed Jesus, and introduced the Latin liturgy and practices among the Thomas Christians.
The Portuguese refused to accept the legitimate authority of the Indian hierarchy and its relation with the East Syrians, and appointed a Latin bishop to govern the Thomas Christians. The Portuguese padroado was extended over them, and from 1599 until 1896, the Saint Thomas Christians were under the Latin bishops who were appointed either by the Portuguese Padroado or by the Roman Congregation of Propaganda Fide.
The only Nasranis who preserved some elements of their Jewish origin were the Knanayas, because of their tradition of being endogamous within their own community and therefore preserving their Jewish tradition.[8]