The formation of the St. Thomas Evangelical Church and the St. George Syrian Orthodox Cathedral,Karingachira near Thripunithura is not mentioned.

*Mar Ivanios and Mar Theophilos joined Catholic Church*

Is it 1830 or 1930 ??

You have omitted an imporatant event, the 1952 Jubilee Celebrations of St.Thomas Christians.
Pope Pius XII initially opposed to declare the nineteenhundreth year of arrival of St.Thomas in Kerala, for “lack of evidence”,sent Cardianal Tisserant,the head of Oriental Congregation, as Pope’s representative to participate in the celebrations.Pope had earlier proclaimed the same year as
Jubilee year of St.Francis Xavier’s arrival in India.With the patronage of Cardinal Tisserant,the
spring of Syro-Malabar Christians started.

Lack of evidence is not unique to St. Thomas. I was reading through some Jewish literature of recent origin. It is about Israeli archaeological finding of the real grave of St.Peter in present day Israel. Of course the Roman Catholic church would never accept this. I find the evidence rather convincing as there are other graves nearby said to be of St.Mary, Martha and Lazarus!Now the question arises. Did St.Peter go to Rome during his last days? We must learn to keep an open mind. Everything in the world cannot be divinely ordered and inspired.

Dear B. George,

I would be very interested to read the evidence found for the tombs of the Apostles Kepha (Peter), Maryam, Martha and Lazar in the Jerusalem area. Would you supply further details of these publications please? For example, titles, publication dates, authors, publisher and ISBNs if available.

Thank you.

Best regards,
Steven.

Dear Steven,
The literature on the subject is extensive. I have chosen the most informative but quotation of the whole is beyond the scope of this post . But please make a Google search for “The Discovery of Peter’s Tomb in Jerusalem” By F.Paul Peterson. I am sure you will find all you want.
Even if I was a Catholic which I am not I would never have accepted the story of Peter’s burial in Vatican since Paul’s epistles do not speak of Peter’s whereabouts excepting their meeting in Jerusalem.
Regards
B.George

Dear B. George,

Thank you for these references, which I have looked up:
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm
Very interesting reading. The inscription in question is casually written, but the consonants read in Aramaic ShM`WN BR YWNH, i.e. “Shem`on Bar Yonah”. In archaeology, the context of finds is key to their interpretation. Pictures of the other biblical names Maryam and Martha and Lazar are given from the same funerary context, but their inscriptions are less distinct, see:
http://biblelight.net/DF-table28-fot78.jpg This image shows the consonants: M(R)T’ WM(R)Y’ i.e. “Ma(r)tha waMa(r)ya”.
If the context is really an early Christian cemetery (as it appears to be) and these other NT names are also found in the same context, then the identification of this inscription with Shem`on Bar Yonah seems to have a very good scientific basis.

I am persuaded by early Christianity and quite devoted to that, but I am certainly not persuaded, and I am not ashamed to be sceptical of its later Greek, western and modern forms. As soon as Christianity was adopted by the political elites of the early 4th century AD, truth was thrown out of the window.

Best regards,
Steven.

The Syrian Church of India is granted full status (Patriarch Theodosius ) c. 852/858 AD. I want to know more details about this

Yes I second the above. What does it mean?

Where in is the details of Palackal Thomma Malpan and the Pallippuram Seminary?
How can the History of the Nazanis be complete wihout the History, the Contributions and the initiatives of Palackal Thomma Malpan?

Kurian Joseph,

Even i like to know more abt Pallipuram church.. WHat i understood is that the church was build in 3rd century AD.. Here its stated 290 AD.. yes its 3rd century.. But how they got the figure 290 AD ???

Gentlemen,

It seems that there were some Chaldean seminaries and monasteries in Malabar before the arrival of the Portugeues. These were abolished by the Portuguese It is known that one such seminary and one monastery were functioning at Kuravilangad.

Can anybody give some information on these seminary and monastery?

NIDHIRY

It must be a reality that there must be monastries and convents in the early church as they are the mainstay in our system.
the early history must have been destroyed or spoiled due to faulty material or storage .let us hope some body bring some information.

dr.abraham p.sam

Dear dr.abraham p.sam,

Early Christianity was an eastern religion based around wandering teachers who lived off of the land and sometimes from the hospitality of friends. They taught disciples and engaged in debate with other religious leaders and scribes. John the Baptist and our founder and God, Isho` Meshiha both exemplified this ascetic way of life which is vividly described in the gospels.

It may surprise you to hear that the first Christian monastery was invented centuries after Christ. The first Christian cenobic monasteries appeared in Egypt c. AD 320. These first monasteries were started by a Coptic monk called Abba Pachom near Qena in Upper Egypt. Then the monastic idea began to spread rapidly. The first monastery in Mesopotamia was founded by Mar Awgin of Clysma, on Mount Izla near Nisibis in c. AD 330. Further details can be found by clicking on the link under my name above and scrolling to the brief article I have written about Mar Awgin under the date AD 362 – 363. I have provided references there, should you wish to dig further into the background of these historical events.

It is also interesting to read the partly legendary Acts of Yehudi Thoma (Thomas) which were originally composed in Syriac. These acts have been edited and translated into English by William Wright, (this book is available to read on-line, or as a free download). Book details:
Wright, William 1871. ‘Apocryphal acts of the apostles’ 2 volumes, London & Edinburgh. Reprinted by Georg Olms, Verlag Hildersheim, Zürich, NY 1990.

In the Syriac Acts of Thomas, Mar Thoma is depicted as a wandering teacher who comes to India at the command of Marya Isho Meshiha. The ascetic lifestyle of Mar Thoma is that of a wandering teacher, the same lifestyle more or less, as is described in the gospels.

With best wishes,
Steven Ring.

Dear Dr. Abraham,

You wrote ‘..It must be a reality that there must be monastries and convents in the early church as they are the mainstay in our system…”

I am not sure of above. YOu should be aware that the unique thing about us Malabar Nazerenes was that there was no ‘eccelestial setup’ as in the West or Ethopia/Egypt/Persia etc.. We had our Jaathi Moopans as our leaders and priests and there is no record of Bishops and similar within an eccelestial setup.

Indeed, the CoE did have an eccelestial set up and it can be argued that we Malabaris came under the CoE. It can also be argued that the ties with the Persian CoE was weak,as our faith and beliefs were leaning heavily towards Indian/Hindu cutlure. The Synod of Diamper was thick with allegations that we followed much pagan practices/traditions. Can you imagine an eccelestial set up in Malabar in full communion with the CoE of Persia?

Monastries and convents are ‘Institutions’ and can come only in an eccelestial setup, as it alone can support administration of these institutions. Small ashrams would have been possible, but not monastries and convents.

Information so far obtained, shows that we were and are not a homogenious group and like the early church, we were of different origins, beliefs and traditions. It was the Inquisition which tried to bring us under one belief and faith. This did not last for long.

Dear Mr. Steven Ring,

You wrote ‘..It is also interesting to read the partly legendary Acts of Yehudi Thoma (Thomas) which …”

Kindly advise as to why you use the words ‘partly legendary’ in the above. I have read the ‘Acts’ and I am no scholar (and my head spins). I understand your choice of ‘partly legendary’. Yet, I would like to have your reasons.

This book is vital to us Malabar Nazerenes and heavy scholastic work on this is long overdue. Can you please oblige?

‘NIDHIRY’ wrote (Post : 287336) :

“It seems that there were some Chaldean seminaries and monasteries in Malabar before the arrival of the Portugeues. These were abolished by the Portuguese It is known that one such seminary and one monastery were functioning at Kuravilangad.

Can anybody give some information on these seminary and monastery?”

Dr. Mar Aprem Metropolitan of the Chaldean Syrian Church of The East in India may have reliable information in this regard. Has this matter been discussed with Dr. Mar Aprem?

There are mentions in many European authors that there were monasteries in Angamali, Kuravilangadu, Mailappore and Edappalli.

Joseph, the famous Indian cathanaar has mentioned in AD 1501 that there were in Malabar, hermitages with monks dressed in black clothes, who live in chastity, and also nuns.

Read section 5b About the Clergy and 5c Monasteries and Nunneries in the article ‘The Story of Joseph the Indian, a Historical appraisal…..’

http://nasrani.net/2010/06/05/the-story-of-joseph-the-indian-with-a-historical-appraisal-of-the-affairs-of-st-thomas-christians/#identifier_40_839

Monk Younan who came to Malabar in AD 905 along with Bishop Mar Denha, Rabban and Maravan as described in the Chronicles of Niranam, was based in the monastery at Kuravilangadu and later buried in the Church at Udayampeeroor.His tomb was demolished by the authorities and remains of his and other three or four persons in a pot and buried in the church at Udayampeeroor.

I have heard that there still a place called Younakkuzhy near Kuravilangadu.

.

Dear Mathai Varghese

Re Post : 302442

What you have asked for: A proper critical edition and an English translation of the Syriac Acts of Thomas is a difficult thing and a lot of work. If this work were to be done, how many people would really read it and appreciate it these days? The work is a monument of Syriac literature and one of the earliest extant Syriac literary texts. The scholars Paul-Hubert Poirier, F. Bovon and P. Geoltrain have shown interest in this work and produced French translations and bibliographies for the AT, but I don’t know if any of these intend to critically edit and translate the AT.

The late William Petersen was one of the most recent scholars to look into the Acts of Thomas. He did not edit or translate it, he merely commented on it. He says, (‘Diatessaron’ p. 213) that there are six known Syriac manuscripts that contain these Acts, reference:

William L. Petersen, ‘Tatian’s Diatessaron’ Supplement to Vigiliae Christianae Vol. XXV ISBN 900 409 469 5 E. J. Brill, Leiden 1994, pp. 213-215.

Despite what Bill Petersen wrote, in my part-time amateur studies into the Syriac tradition so far, I have managed to identify 13 manuscript copies of this work. However, not all of these copies are complete and due to wars etc., not all of them can be accessed. About 8 of these 12 manuscripts are potentially accessible to me.

Kind regards,
Steven.

Dear Mathai Varghese

Re Post : 302442

I forgot to answer your question about the legendary nature of the Acts of Thomas. Initially, some scholars thought that the AT was an entirely legendary tale, however this view has gradually changed over time. More recent research has found certain connections to real historical people in the AT. There are also other features in the AT like the one I pointed out above, which suggest that the AT is at least partly historical, or perhaps it developed from an historical work.

Best wishes,
Steven Ring.

Dear Mr. Kuruvilla Cherian,

I am happy to be corrected if it is established that there was a seminary in place X and monastry in Kuruvilangad. However, I would advise to be very careful in the usage of the words ‘seminary’ and ‘monastry’. These are English words and strongly indicate institutions. A pro Western leaning would conviniently translate the Indian word ‘Ashram’ into ‘Monastry’ or ‘Seminary’.

For instance during the years around AD 1599, the title and name ‘Arch Deacon George’ comes up importantly in our history, subtly making our mindset ‘Western Christian’, while the the priest’s title and name would have been ‘Jaathi Moopan Geevarghese’. Arch Deacon George is not the same as Jaathi Moopan Geevarghese’. Is Bombay the same as Mumbai? If one uses the word ‘Bombay’ today, then it reveals the inside of the user.

My accessment (with no evidence) is that there was an small Ashram in Kuravilangad where the presence of the Persian CoE was noticable/evident and this Ashram (after the arrival of the Portugeese) was conviniently denoted as ‘Monastry/Seminary’ just the way that Jaathi Moopan Geevarghese is named today as ‘Arch Deacon George’.

Bombay smacks of Colonial British India and Mumbai smacks of Saffron Shiv Sena. They are not the same, though the GPS coordinate are the same.
This is a little difficult for me to express, but I am trying!

I will even venture out to say that the Ashram would have been in the same ‘plot’ of the Jaathi Moopan’s house/palace, the same entity as his house.

Dear Mr. Steven Ring,

Thanks for the info.

Initially, when I read (in English) the AT, I mentally dismissed it as a ‘legend’ and not as facts. How can a snake talk in AT?

Acts of Judas Thomas, Act 3 “..The snake saith to him: “I am reptile, the son of reptile and harmer, the son of harmer; I am the son of him, to whom power…”

If Jesus said in Luke 10:19 “Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you…”, then why should I have a problem in not believing in a talking snake in AT?

In Numbers 22: 28, a donkey talks to Balaam.

I am not saying that the AT should or should not be Scripture, but saying it is a very important book for us Marthomites. It is sad, that you, a non Marthomite know much much more of this book than us. We have a long long way to go.

Dear Mathai Varghese,

So, I’m interested in your post above. Does anyone know what a Nasrani ashram was like and how it functioned?

This interests me because there were other kinds of ascetic Christian community (i.e. not cenobic monasteries as such) which existed in the Middle East up to the 7th or 8th century AD. So, I wonder how Nasrani ashrams compare to those?

Best regards,
Steven.

Dear Sir,

Difficult to answer right away, about the Nasrani Ashram. This is probably the first time this subject is even being addressed. Need much information. But I can cast information into the ring and ones who are gifted in ‘synthesizing’ can put together subject. Mine is only an attempt by an amateur.

An Ashram is a Hindu/Jain/Buddhist word for a place of religious retreat/fellowship, usually under a guru. Some to all Syrian churches in Kerala have their own ashrams. For instance the Marthoma Syrian Church has an Ashram in Sihora, Madya Pradesh and the ‘Reeth (Syro Malabar Catholic Church) has an Ashram in Kurushumallai in Idukki Dist., Kerala.

Prior to the Inquisition in AD 1599 and after, Nazerenes were led by the ‘Jaathi Moopans’ or the ‘Heads of the castes’ or for a Westerner to understand, it would be ‘Head of the clans’. The Malabar Nazerenes were highly family and clan oriented and strong evidences of this orientation/structure exists even today in modern Kerala.

The priestly families like Pakalomattom, Kalli etc.. were the religious leaders and these families were also the elite with possible large agrarian land holdings. In the main house or near the main house of the Jaathi Moopan was the ‘Ashram’ where people resided as guests/members, for spiritual and physical/medical reason. Attached to such estates were also the ‘Pallies’, which then meant ‘place of learning’ and which today means ‘church’.

So it was a ‘combo kit’ having the 3 entities,

1)Main household of the Jaathi Moopan, with his immediate and extended family, servants etc..
2) Ashram, where the guests/members resided for spiritual and medical(?) reasons, usually fed from the kitchen in the main house.
3) Palli to accommodate for worship a few hundred people on the 7th day and the 1st day.

The Bible as we know it today was simply not freely available to the masses then. The priestly families would just have had a few copies of the Bible and that too not the entire collection of the Book, but just individual books here and there. Because of this, I would imagine that the priestly households were the center of focus on religious matters. Religious studies and liturgy was of-course in Syriac and so guests/members often resided there, as knowledge in religious Syriac was uncommon. This place would have been commonly (and collectively?) called ‘Palli’ than Ashram.

Today, people in Kerala do not say ‘I am going to the Ashram for worship’, rather they say that I am going to the Palli for worship! Ashram is a place where those seriously into religion reside and pursue their calling. Young students and seniors from other places would have resided in these small religious centers and such religious centers would be called a small Ashram.

It is further possible, that the word ‘Ashram’ was not used, but rather the word ‘Palli’ was used. As Palli means ‘Place of learning/studies’, it can also include ‘Place of residence of those engaged in learning/studies’.

A very popular usage all over India would be ‘Gurukulam’, which is the place where the teacher lives with his extended family and also were students learn and live, sometimes under the same roof. The concept of Gurukulam should have extended to the Malabar Nazerenes. The key words of the Malabar Nazerenes Ashram/Palli/Gurukulam would have been ‘Family of the sub Jaathi Moopans and the Chief Jaathi Moopans’.

Dear Mr. Steven Ring and the Administrator,

May I suggest that the Admin. of this forum request Mr. Ring to write an article on the ‘Acts of Thomas’.